I want to believe but....

[StormInside]

I was brought up Catholic but never believed in it. In my teens I got involved with Satanism and other things, my life went terribly downhill. I'm 27 this year and don't involve myself with such things any more, but I've had terrible depression for years and my life is hopeless, I can't hold down a job and dropped out of university several times. Now at my age I'm still unemployed and living with my parents. But the thing is, I feel to hopeless to care, I really feel like my life has been awful for so long, I have no hope that it can ever improve. I can't stop binge-eating and counselling and medication haven't helped.

I have had a few spiritual experiences where I've felt the prescence of God but when they're over I think that I must have just imagined it and that I must be mad. I really wish that I could totally believe in Christianity because having the rules and support of the catholic church would be a great help to me.

However, I just can't make myself believe in Christianity. At university i was studying religion and philosophy and I had done some research into how religions form, and I investigated the backgound of christianity and how it developed, such as Jesus being based on older pagan gods, there were alot of old pagan gods who died and were resurrected, etc. So I find it logically impossible to believe in Christianity.

But I want to believe and I don't know what to do about it.

 

[Willtor]

Hi StormInside. Welcome to CF!

My wife and my brother struggle with depression, and some of their symptoms sounds similar to yours. I'm not a medical professional, of course, so this is not a diagnosis. But it might be worth your while to seek out a psychiatrist who can prescribe a medication that will make you feel more capable of approaching some of these things in a stronger state of mind. Sometimes counseling isn't enough if there are chemical imbalances. It might even help you if you decided to return to university to complete your degree.

Regarding your particular concerns having to do with the Christian religion, I doubt that the courses you took were designed to give you the impression that the roots of Christianity were firmly established and that its source was known to be the things you mention. There is lively debate in academia on just about every point in ancient Christianity. That said, I have inferred from what you say that the courses led you to believe that Jesus didn't exist. The existence of Jesus (whether divine or no) is basically not debated. The overwhelming consensus is that he certainly did walk the Earth in the early first century.

There is a good high-level book that addresses some of the fundamental questions being asked: "The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions" by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright. The two authors have very different views of who Jesus is. Borg, in some ways, represents more liberal scholarship on the matter, and Wright represents more conservative scholarship. But neither is really pigeonholed by group politics. They both are refreshingly honest, candid, unthreatened by one another, and unthreatening to the reader; All in all, good scholars. I.e., although I find Wright more persuasive, I will not belittle the quality of scholarship demonstrated by Borg, nor question his intellectual honesty and sincerity.

---

But I really do recommend considering seeing someone with a medical degree. If some of this is due to chemical imbalances, you will find that the right medication places these matters far more within your grasp -- and even if you continue to feel anxious in some ways, you will find them more joyful and fulfilling.

 

[Chesterton]

At university i was studying religion and philosophy and I had done some research into how religions form, and I investigated the backgound of christianity and how it developed, such as Jesus being based on older pagan gods, there were alot of old pagan gods who died and were resurrected, etc. So I find it logically impossible to believe in Christianity.

That Horus, Mithras, Krishna, etc. stuff gets trotted out on these forums pretty often. The claims are fairly easily shot down, if that's what you're talking about.

 

[StormInside]

Thanks for the replies. I have seen medical professionals about my depression. I've been on and off anti-depressants since the age of 15. The last time I took them was a year ago but I quit because they were giving me delusions and making me paranoid. I can't return to my degree because I so desperately don't want to that it was making me suicidal, that is why I eventually left. I only stuck it out as long as I did because my dad cried and made me feel really guilty the first time I quit. I hated the course, I wasn't interested in it and I could not cope with the workload. I have a thyroid problem which makes me really tired and brain-foggy, which made it even more difficult to concentrate. I will look up the books you recommended.

Chesterton - I'd be interested in hearing the claims shot down. I found what I learnt about pretty convincing as it seemed too much of a coincidence that Jesus could be true when similar stories had been told so many times before.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Storminside,

I think the incarnation of God is a hope that a variety of peoples have had throughout history. The hope that death would be overcome as well. It's probably an inate desire of humanity. I don't see that as in any way ruling out the reality of the incarnation of Christ of though. The fact that an idea keeps coming up over and over again throughout history shows us something about the way that humans in general think. Maybe this is an imprint left on us by the One who created us ? A preperation for the Gospel among the "pagans".

 

[Lukaris]

Since you have indicated needs in both faith & medicine you may want to inquire of doctors who are Christians (I am not saying to avoid a non Christian doctor of course). There is a Christian medical group here: Home / ; I do not know what presence they have in Britain but sure they are. Is there an Anglican church near you? I would think that they may have many resources available to help. I do not know if you have ever attended the late Sunday afternoon (or early evening) Evensong service but if you can, I recommend it since it is very beautiful & soothing (although it may be observed mostly in cathedrals & hardly elsewhere).

As far as wanting to believe, a good approach may be to just ask Jesus Christ into your conscience to guide you in doing what is right for yourself & fellow persons (read the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5,6, & 7). Focus on the 2 great commands (see Mark 12:28-34. matthew 22:36-40) & go back & read the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6. Just remember heaven & hell do not constitute an "or else" option for non Christians ( the Beatitudes in matthew 5 testify to potentially anyone the Lord will call "blessed") but still must be taken seriously. Also read Romans 10:9-13 to call on Jesus Christ.

Hope my scratch here can be of help. God bless.

 

[salida]

You have been taught falsehoods-probably from a antichristian secular teacher.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

Research the credibility of the bible yourself concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first.

Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,
http://christiananswers.net/


http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

 

[salida]

The Nature of God
http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net/hermeneutics/god.pdf

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago; some scholars think 3000 years ago)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Have you read your Bible? If not, or it has been a while, open up your Bible and read the gospel. I suggest starting with the book of John. Before reading, earnestly pray for God to reveal himself to you so that you may believe. See what happens next.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

]I was brought up Catholic but never believed in it. In my teens I got involved with Satanism and other things, my life went terribly downhill.

This is why Jesus said that Satan is a thief, a liar, and a murderer. Satan's way leads onlydown, blindly down. You have your own empirical evidence to back that up. Now, its time to place yourself in the providence of the Way, the Truth, and the Life--Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

I'm 27 this year and don't involve myself with such things any more, but I've had terrible depression for years and my life is hopeless, I can't hold down a job and dropped out of university several times.

Yes, my university experience was high pressure too...I thought I would have a nervous breakdown. I understand you there. And I've had boughts with depression off and on as well, although I'm pretty sure mine isn't bi-polar.

Now at my age I'm still unemployed and living with my parents.

There is no shame in that. Living with parents should be considered normal, but in our society, which is philosophically enslaved to the idea of individualism, we are made to feel as if living with family is abnormal. It may seem politically savvy, but it is not biblical.

But the thing is, I feel to hopeless to care, I really feel like my life has been awful for so long, I have no hope that it can ever improve. I can't stop binge-eating and counselling and medication haven't helped.

You're probably binge-eating because you feel that life is tough, and it may seem that food is the only outlet you have right now. Find some other things in life you can enjoy. (And, please continue your treatments with your doctor.)

I have had a few spiritual experiences where I've felt the prescence of God but when they're over I think that I must have just imagined it and that I must be mad. I really wish that I could totally believe in Christianity because having the rules and support of the catholic church would be a great help to me.

We are all waiting for empirical experiences. God gives very few of those to very few people. I'll let you know if and when I get mine.

However, I just can't make myself believe in Christianity.

You can't make yourself believe. It doesn't work that way. All you can do is submit to the principles taught by Christ in the New Testament and let them gradually reshape your priorities and thoughts.

At university i was studying religion and philosophy and I had done some research into how religions form, and I investigated the backgound of christianity and how it developed, such as Jesus being based on older pagan gods, there were alot of old pagan gods who died and were resurrected, etc. So I find it logically impossible to believe in Christianity.

I have a degree in philosophy and have been studying Christianity over twenty years, as well as other religions. There are arguments for and against the 'old pagan gods' routine.

But I want to believe and I don't know what to do about it.

Quite trying to 'believe' and just respond to Christ--hear, receive, and move. This means, read the New Testament, Fellowship with other Christians---Go to church, even if you just sit there. Pray. Be Patient...Especially, be a friend to others...

 

[vespasia]

Hallo Storminside.

I am also in the UK; a communicant member of the CofE; studying a degree in applied theo and another in health care. I also spent thirty years sinistri on the LHP before deciding Christ was the better way.

Depression can be a terrible illness- I do not have this but I do care for people who have. I am so glad you have parents who can offer you a safe place to stay although I can also appreciate at 27 that may not be something you had wanted for yourself.

Of course you feel hopeless, that life is awful, you binge on food and cannot find a way out of this awful place -that is real depression. Such is the effect of this illness it impacts into all areas of a person's life including the spiritual.

Belief is not quite the same as faith. Faith is to trust that which you have not known to be that comes from within reaching out whereas belief can be taken from others and worn like a coat and like a coat it may not be very useful when you feel you are drowning.

Do you have contact with your local community mental health team?
I do hope so as the local teams can make such a difference and their ability to support towards recovery is far greater than a local GP practice. As you have clearly been suffering for so long do ask your GP to refer you if they have not done so already. It will not solve everything BUT it the CPN's really will do their best to help you access what you need to keep yourself as well as you can.

If one group of drugs causes unpleasant side effects tell your Dr's. What works and helps one person may not another and whilst it can be trail and error their are other options available but these drugs are safest overseen by the community teams who have the expert knowledge.

MIND in the UK are another good source of support and I do recommend contacting them - your parents may find the support and advice they can give helps them to be able to enable you. MIND works in parity with people using their services and is one of the few groups using the holistic model in a way I consider to be used well.

You cannot return to your degree at this point but most UK universities will look sympathetically at circumstances and personnal illness. You should be able to carry your credits and take them with you at a later date. Your old director fo studies should be bale to advise on this. The UK's OU provides a lot of support to students studying at home with various illnesses so that may be a possible route when you feel like looking at study again.

There are some good churches out there in the UK. A good priest who truly takes the charge to care for the sheep seriously will listen to you. Many have had awful times of crushing dispair and doubt . In the catholic tradition its known as the dark night of the soul. Its a horrible place to be as it is so hard to know God is there with you in such an awful place. Most priests have been through this place and will understand your cries and searching. You should be able to locate your nearest parish church using the UK 'find a church' search engine.

The ministry of healing and reconcilliation is available from the catholic church just a sit is the anglican. For now simply try and find a priest who can listen and support you with discussion and prayers. Catholic priests train for six years with the first half in philosophy and religious studies so they are good well educated people who love Christ to talk to. The Jesuits in the UK are better educated than the parish priests but they may be a little scary to think about talking to when you feel very battered by life.

God never rejects a heart that seeks him even if that heart is looking in a dark place for God is God and there is no-where too far away from the touch of his love.

Go at the speed you need to on this for the scripture tells us that God does not break the bruised or pinch out a flickering flame. Ask questions, cry out to God for when God seems silent that is only because he is listening to our hearts needs so intently.

I suspect although I could easily be wrong as this medium can be so limited that for you satanism was simply a symptom of your distress and spiritual searching rather than an intent in its own right.
May God bless you with what you need and may his peace enfold you and guide your searching.

 

[razeontherock]

Have you read your Bible? If not, or it has been a while, open up your Bible and read the gospel. I suggest starting with the book of John. Before reading, earnestly pray for God to reveal himself to you so that you may believe. See what happens next.

^ ^ THIS.

Also, to say Christianity is "based on" other myths is not accurate. At all. To say the same G-d gave different people the same basic idea(s), in different ways, over and over again, so that we might eventually get it? And to wait for a time when a significant geography was connected by a common language and roads, so all trace of the Sacrifice wouldn't be wiped out?

It was the soonest it could be done.

And don't look for a Church, denomination, or fellow mortal to save you. Seek the Lord!

 

[AlexBP]

Chesterton - I'd be interested in hearing the claims shot down. I found what I learnt about pretty convincing as it seemed too much of a coincidence that Jesus could be true when similar stories had been told so many times before.

Hi, StormInside. When I read your post I could sympathize with a lot of it because I've been there, both in experiencing depression and suicidal thoughts and in struggling with how to believe when my education had taught me not to. To deal with the second issue first, let me say this. All through high school and college I received an entirely secular education. In the United States that means that religion is rarely mentioned at all. When it was mentioned, it was usually to explain that certain religious claims had been "debunked" by modern psychology or some other field. While I was in graduate school I began noticing that the Christians who lived around me had some answers to the questions I was asking. Since everyone agrees that finding the truth requires listening to both sides, I decided to let some prominent Christian scholars have a say by reading their books.

Well, suffice to say I learned a tremendous amount that I had not learned in school, and it was the beginning of an intellectual odyssey that eventually brought me to Christianity.

To address the specific question stories about Jesus being copied from pagan myths, let me present it this way. The books of the New Testament were written from 40 to 70 A.D., roughly. Have you even actually seen a firsthand document written before that time, of a pagan myth that corresponds to anything ascribed to Jesus in the New Testament? I am aware that many movies, writers, and scholars make this claim, but have you ever actually looked into firsthand evidence for it?

For starters, many of the characters that the gospels were supposedly copied from did not exist when the New Testament was written. That would include Mithras (earliest evidence at 90 A.D.), Apollonius (second century), and the Norse gods (almost a thousand years later.)

But what about mythical character such as the ancient Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris? Here, there simply aren't any notable similarities between them and Jesus. First of all, many of the claimed similarities were flatly made up by people pushing the Christ copy-cat idea. This webpage covers that in detail quite thoroughly. As for the idea of the resurrection of Osiris, that also is inaccurate. Osiris died and was dismembered and Horus reassembled the body, after which Osiris descended to the Land of the Dead. But nowhere is there any myth about a character being killed, resurrected, and returning to the land of the living prior to the writing of the gospels.

For further resources, I would first suggest this excellent essay by N. T. Wright, which looks in detail at what Jews and Pagans believed about the afterlife, and finds that there's nowhere that the story of the resurrection could have been taken from. Journalist Lee Strobel has written two excellent books about the evidence for Jesus: The Case for Christ and The Case for the Real Jesus.

On the issue of struggling with depression as it relates to Christianity, there's quite a lot to be said, more than I can put here. I will point you to an excellent book: Orthodoxy, by G. K. Chesterton. Outside the bible, no other book has had as much influence on my life, and I think you might find it particularly helpful because, though few people know it, Chesterton himself was sucked into various occult practices when he was young, but was eventually saved by Jesus and became one of the twentieth century's most able defenders of Christianity. The book is a short biography of how that happened. The link goes to the full text of the book, though you can probably else find a copy in a bookstore or library without too much trouble. It is, in my most sincere opinion, an indescribably brilliant book that everyone should read.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I've had terrible depression for years and my life is hopeless, I can't hold down a job and dropped out of university several times. Now at my age I'm still unemployed and living with my parents. But the thing is, I feel to hopeless to care, I really feel like my life has been awful for so long, I have no hope that it can ever improve. I can't stop binge-eating and counselling and medication haven't helped.

I can understand where you are comming from there was a time in my life where I was in a similar situation to your self. I was so depressed with my life that I wanted to commit suicide, and I attempted it. When I did God stoped me by reminding me of a verse that had been quoted over me at a church service "I know the thoughts that I think toward you says the LORD for good and not for evil". I had for the most part been actively seeking Gods help through this time but could not seem to connect with him. However as time progressed, and I maintained my faith in God things began to change. Now I am married at 35 to a 27 year old (before I was like you with the oldies), and my wife is expecting our first child. We are both happy, and God is continuing to reveal his goodness in character to me from the bible.

Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Hi, StormInside. When I read your post I could sympathize with a lot of it because I've been there, both in experiencing depression and suicidal thoughts and in struggling with how to believe when my education had taught me not to. To deal with the second issue first, let me say this. All through high school and college I received an entirely secular education. In the United States that means that religion is rarely mentioned at all. When it was mentioned, it was usually to explain that certain religious claims had been "debunked" by modern psychology or some other field. While I was in graduate school I began noticing that the Christians who lived around me had some answers to the questions I was asking. Since everyone agrees that finding the truth requires listening to both sides, I decided to let some prominent Christian scholars have a say by reading their books.

Well, suffice to say I learned a tremendous amount that I had not learned in school, and it was the beginning of an intellectual odyssey that eventually brought me to Christianity.

To address the specific question stories about Jesus being copied from pagan myths, let me present it this way. The books of the New Testament were written from 40 to 70 A.D., roughly. Have you even actually seen a firsthand document written before that time, of a pagan myth that corresponds to anything ascribed to Jesus in the New Testament? I am aware that many movies, writers, and scholars make this claim, but have you ever actually looked into firsthand evidence for it?

For starters, many of the characters that the gospels were supposedly copied from did not exist when the New Testament was written. That would include Mithras (earliest evidence at 90 A.D.), Apollonius (second century), and the Norse gods (almost a thousand years later.)

But what about mythical character such as the ancient Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris? Here, there simply aren't any notable similarities between them and Jesus. First of all, many of the claimed similarities were flatly made up by people pushing the Christ copy-cat idea. This webpage covers that in detail quite thoroughly. As for the idea of the resurrection of Osiris, that also is inaccurate. Osiris died and was dismembered and Horus reassembled the body, after which Osiris descended to the Land of the Dead. But nowhere is there any myth about a character being killed, resurrected, and returning to the land of the living prior to the writing of the gospels.

For further resources, I would first suggest this excellent essay by N. T. Wright, which looks in detail at what Jews and Pagans believed about the afterlife, and finds that there's nowhere that the story of the resurrection could have been taken from. Journalist Lee Strobel has written two excellent books about the evidence for Jesus: The Case for Christ and The Case for the Real Jesus.

On the issue of struggling with depression as it relates to Christianity, there's quite a lot to be said, more than I can put here. I will point you to an excellent book: Orthodoxy, by G. K. Chesterton. Outside the bible, no other book has had as much influence on my life, and I think you might find it particularly helpful because, though few people know it, Chesterton himself was sucked into various occult practices when he was young, but was eventually saved by Jesus and became one of the twentieth century's most able defenders of Christianity. The book is a short biography of how that happened. The link goes to the full text of the book, though you can probably else find a copy in a bookstore or library without too much trouble. It is, in my most sincere opinion, an indescribably brilliant book that everyone should read.

Actually, Paul wrote most of his letters in the 50s CE, while the earliest gospel, Mark, was written about 10-15 years after that. Matthew and Luke sourced Mark heavily (i.e. copied), tweaking events so as to suite their 'intended audience.' John came later, and is completely different in style and content than the first three gospels (most notably, John does not mention Jesus' imminent return, for obvious reasons).

 

[E.C.]

I was brought up Catholic but never believed in it. In my teens I got involved with Satanism and other things, my life went terribly downhill. I'm 27 this year and don't involve myself with such things any more, but I've had terrible depression for years and my life is hopeless, I can't hold down a job and dropped out of university several times. Now at my age I'm still unemployed and living with my parents. But the thing is, I feel to hopeless to care, I really feel like my life has been awful for so long, I have no hope that it can ever improve. I can't stop binge-eating and counselling and medication haven't helped.

I have had a few spiritual experiences where I've felt the prescence of God but when they're over I think that I must have just imagined it and that I must be mad. I really wish that I could totally believe in Christianity because having the rules and support of the catholic church would be a great help to me.

However, I just can't make myself believe in Christianity. At university i was studying religion and philosophy and I had done some research into how religions form, and I investigated the backgound of christianity and how it developed, such as Jesus being based on older pagan gods, there were alot of old pagan gods who died and were resurrected, etc. So I find it logically impossible to believe in Christianity.

But I want to believe and I don't know what to do about it.

As Lukaris and Christos Anesti have pointed out, Christ being born and resurrected doesn't necessarily mean that He was created out of something else. After all, it is very possible that pagan gods were created to pave the way for Christianity to arrive at a later time.

What can help is to say "Lord help my unbelief". There is a story in the Bible in which a rich man asks Christ Himself the very same thing so you won't be the first one

May I suggest a book? It is called "Orthodox Spirituality" by Metropolitan Heirotheos of Nafpaktos, a Greek Orthodox bishop, and it is available in English. He writes about how Christianity and the Christian Church is the hospital for the soul. A large part of mankind's problems come from the state of their own souls.

 

[daniibp23]

If you were able to be involved in Satanism, acknowledging Stan´s existence, you´ll be able to become a Christian, acknowledging that God is much greater than Satan.

 

[E.C.]

If you were able to be involved in Satanism, acknowledging Stan´s existence, you´ll be able to become a Christian, acknowledging that God is much greater than Satan.

Not necessarily as there are different groups of Satanists. There are those who worship Satan as an idea and there are those who worship him as a deity. Theistic vs. Atheistic Satanists.