I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

[eclipsenow]

I've been there. It was way back in 2004. The origins of my thinking were more secular, and scientific, as I had just joined an online group that was in a particularly scary part of the environmental movement. It almost operated like a secular cult.

They predicted all kinds of Mad Max Doomer scenarios for the 2010's. I'm not going into the whole subject of peak oil now (and I remain convinced there are significant geopolitical risks - see point 4 the Export Land Model). But I am also now very optimistic that there are attractive solutions to living with less or even without oil. (After all, from a climate point of view we can't even burn all the remaining oil let alone the gas and coal.)

But back in 2004 I didn't know what I know all the solutions I know today. I was convinced the threats were real - but wanted action to mitigate the coming horrors. But my continual arguments for hope and action did not convince many people in that group. One young man was convinced that in just a few years he would be forced to watch his family starve to death in the terror of societal collapse. He could not cope, and rode his pushbike out to his favourite national park, climbed up a tree, and hung himself. To this day I hold the Doomer leader of that email group responsible.
Restoring Mayberry: The moment of darkness

In a similar way, I worry about the side-effects of the futurist time-tables here.

First of all, I worry about the young people reading all your blogs and putting their hope in various short-term timetables of the Lord's return. What if they believe you? What if they LIVE BY your blog – and make terrible and unwise decisions in the mania that such “knowledge” can sometimes cause? What happens when your timetable does not come true - the way so many other timetables have failed before?

They might give up Christ, the worst outcome.

It can also have other effects. “Knowing” the end of the world can give the easily influenced an exciting mission and purpose, make them feel superior to others just getting on with their lives - and also give them a personal martyr complex as everyone around them rejects their mania. It’s such a well known phenomenon amongst both religious and secular Doomers that it has a name - “Cassandra Syndrome”. It can make people do and say some very unwise things, sometimes with profound consequences and regrets.
Cassandra (metaphor) - Wikipedia

Second, I worry about this superiority complex many in both religious and secular cults get. They think they *know* what is coming - and it makes them superior to others. They're special, like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies. They sort of look down at everyone else as mere consumers. They are special, but we uninformed masses are just the "Sheeple", just getting on with our silly middle-class lives. But how does this display Christian humility? We are meant to be so grateful for our forgiveness of sins that the gospel overwhelms us and we want to talk about it - with gentleness and respect - with everyone we meet. Not some silly unverifiable timetable.

Third, I strongly suspect many Christians fall for the security of this worldview. Back in the day, I was watching some Christian friends on the ABC's religion show, Compass. My friends were called on because they had are experts in Millennial fears. Dr John Dickson and Dr Greg Clarke wrote "666 and all that" – a great little book that covers the Amil case. But more relevant is the interview with the psychologist as to why Apocalyptic Thinking is so attractive. I’ll hand you all over to Compass.
___

Narrator: "Psychologists like Susan Tanner are also concerned about the impact of doomsday thinking."

THE PSYCHOLOGIST: Susan Tanner: "Now many things are not predictable. The world is a very uncertain place. People change their jobs, organisations fold, collapse, you know, There is no guarantee in anything any more...Global threats like war, climate change certainly create anxiety too because the future is no longer guaranteed... ....that sort of unpredictability and uncertainty creates a lot of anxiety, and anxiety is often a precursor to depression."

"Unresolved anxiety sets people up for depression, because you can then feel despondent that well there actually isn't anything I can do. Because climate change is out of my hands, terrorism is out of my hands..."

"So that can lead to what's called catastrophic thinking, that imagining the worst scenario of what might happen and then believing that that's what will happen."

Narrator: "Surprisingly, being certain about the end can actually bring relief to those suffering anxiety..."

Susan Tanner: "Apocalyptic thinking can be very useful to people who need to feel a sense of control, and that they therefore feel calm because they know what's going to happen. Living with uncertainty, living with a question mark is the hardest thing to do for all human beings. We like to know what's going to happen. That's why we visit clairvoyants and you know we have our tarots read and all sorts of things...."
COMPASS: Apocalypse Now?

 

[keras]

I've been there.

I don't blame you for leaving that type of group.
But because they were wrong as is all the other weird and wonderful theories, like the fable of being whisked off to heaven, is no reason to dismiss the Prophesies which God has given mankind.

We know how the Prophesies about ancient Israel and of Jesus' first Advent literally did happen. The ones as yet unfulfilled, which is most of them; cannot be thought of as never happening. That belief brings the Bible into disrepute and makes it a book of much fiction.

Not being aware of what God has planned for the forthcoming end times, will make it hard for people.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I've been there. It was way back in 2004.

Yeah, I have been there too back in the 1980's. Mary Stewart Relf wrote a book called When Your Money Fails. She has since passed away.She thought Anwar Sadat was the Antichrist . I must admit that she was so sure of it she convinced me. When Sadat was assassinated,I fully expected him to rise from the dead. LOL. I was disappointed but I did not lose hope. In fact, I saw that she was right about some things and I became more observant. I am not surprised by what I see happening today. I think my discernment became sharper. I am not a date setter but I know that Jesus is coming back one day (maybe today).As I watch how the world is coming apart, and seeing prophecies being fulfilled makes me know that something is happening. I believe in the doctrine of imminency. I fully expect the Lord Jesus to return any day now. I know He is coming. I have no doubt about it. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yeah, I have been there too back in the 1980's. Mary Stewart Relf wrote a book called When Your Money Fails. She has since passed away.She thought Anwar Sadat was the Antichrist . I must admit that she was so sure of it she convinced me. When Sadat was assassinated,I fully expected him to rise from the dead. LOL. I was disappointed but I did not lose hope. In fact, I saw that she was right about some things and I became more observant. I am not surprised by what I see happening today. I think my discernment became sharper. I am not a date setter but I know that Jesus is coming back one day (maybe today).As I watch how the world is coming apart, and seeing prophecies being fulfilled makes me know that something is happening. I believe in the doctrine of imminency. I fully expect the Lord Jesus to return any day now. I know He is coming. I have no doubt about it. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

My concern is both that Amils don't get complacent and forget about THAT DAY - because it really could happen tonight - and that futurists don't get the symptoms described in the opening post and go and disillusion a bunch of younger people.

Also, another concern I should have listed.

I've noticed the following rule both in emotional involvement and in theological outcomes, but here goes.

The more futurist-focussed people are, the smaller the gospel gets or seems

This is a profoundly complicated subject involving eschatological tension applied to many different subjects, but here's one example. The temple. The theme of God living with us is promised in the OT, with shadows of it in the OT temple system - and then Jesus as the God - man becomes THE temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days. The more futurists rave about the temple in the future - the less impressed they are about Jesus as temple in the gospel events and the church today as temple holding the gospel message of salvation now. That the focus could shift from Jesus death and resurrection to some future BUILDING with some futurists just outright astonishes me. But, in the confusion of the human heart and the mess the church is in today, I guess I should not be surprised.

The more futurist, the less gospel focussed...

Some futurists seem so bored by the gospel they seem to me to treat it as some boring background paper-work that has to be done to get to the GOOD STUFF - all those futurist timetables....

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I've noticed the following rule both in emotional involvement and in theological outcomes, but here goes.

The more futurist-focussed people are, the smaller the gospel gets or seems

This is a profoundly complicated subject involving eschatological tension applied to many different subjects, but here's one example. The temple. The theme of God living with us is promised in the OT, with shadows of it in the OT temple system - and then Jesus as the God - man becomes THE temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days. The more futurists rave about the temple in the future - the less impressed they are about Jesus as temple in the gospel events and the church today as temple holding the gospel message of salvation now. That the focus could shift from Jesus death and resurrection to some future BUILDING with some futurists just outright astonishes me. But, in the confusion of the human heart and the mess the church is in today, I guess I should not be surprised.

The more futurist, the less gospel focussed...

Some futurists seem so bored by the gospel they seem to me to treat it as some boring background paper-work that has to be done to get to the GOOD STUFF - all those futurist timetables....

This is personal to you. It is how YOU think about what futurists think. Our bodies are temples and Holy Spirit indwells us. WE don't need a brick and mortar temple. However, the Jews will rebuild their temple. You are correct that some Christians are super focused on the rebuilding of the Jewish temple though. But that does not mean that they are not focused on the Gospel also.

 

[Douggg]

I've been there. It was way back in 2004. The origins of my thinking were more secular, and scientific, as I had just joined an online group that was in a particularly scary part of the environmental movement. It almost operated like a secular cult.

They predicted all kinds of Mad Max Doomer scenarios for the 2010's. I'm not going into the whole subject of peak oil now (and I remain convinced there are significant geopolitical risks - see point 4 the Export Land Model). But I am also now very optimistic that there are attractive solutions to living with less or even without oil. (After all, from a climate point of view we can't even burn all the remaining oil let alone the gas and coal.)

But back in 2004 I didn't know what I know all the solutions I know today. I was convinced the threats were real - but wanted action to mitigate the coming horrors. But my continual arguments for hope and action did not convince many people in that group. One young man was convinced that in just a few years he would be forced to watch his family starve to death in the terror of societal collapse. He could not cope, and rode his pushbike out to his favourite national park, climbed up a tree, and hung himself. To this day I hold the Doomer leader of that email group responsible.
Restoring Mayberry: The moment of darkness

In a similar way, I worry about the side-effects of the futurist time-tables here.

First of all, I worry about the young people reading all your blogs and putting their hope in various short-term timetables of the Lord's return. What if they believe you? What if they LIVE BY your blog – and make terrible and unwise decisions in the mania that such “knowledge” can sometimes cause? What happens when your timetable does not come true - the way so many other timetables have failed before?

They might give up Christ, the worst outcome.

It can also have other effects. “Knowing” the end of the world can give the easily influenced an exciting mission and purpose, make them feel superior to others just getting on with their lives - and also give them a personal martyr complex as everyone around them rejects their mania. It’s such a well known phenomenon amongst both religious and secular Doomers that it has a name - “Cassandra Syndrome”. It can make people do and say some very unwise things, sometimes with profound consequences and regrets.
Cassandra (metaphor) - Wikipedia

Second, I worry about this superiority complex many in both religious and secular cults get. They think they *know* what is coming - and it makes them superior to others. They're special, like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies. They sort of look down at everyone else as mere consumers. They are special, but we uninformed masses are just the "Sheeple", just getting on with our silly middle-class lives. But how does this display Christian humility? We are meant to be so grateful for our forgiveness of sins that the gospel overwhelms us and we want to talk about it - with gentleness and respect - with everyone we meet. Not some silly unverifiable timetable.

Third, I strongly suspect many Christians fall for the security of this worldview. Back in the day, I was watching some Christian friends on the ABC's religion show, Compass. My friends were called on because they had are experts in Millennial fears. Dr John Dickson and Dr Greg Clarke wrote "666 and all that" – a great little book that covers the Amil case. But more relevant is the interview with the psychologist as to why Apocalyptic Thinking is so attractive. I’ll hand you all over to Compass.
___

Narrator: "Psychologists like Susan Tanner are also concerned about the impact of doomsday thinking."

THE PSYCHOLOGIST: Susan Tanner: "Now many things are not predictable. The world is a very uncertain place. People change their jobs, organisations fold, collapse, you know, There is no guarantee in anything any more...Global threats like war, climate change certainly create anxiety too because the future is no longer guaranteed... ....that sort of unpredictability and uncertainty creates a lot of anxiety, and anxiety is often a precursor to depression."

"Unresolved anxiety sets people up for depression, because you can then feel despondent that well there actually isn't anything I can do. Because climate change is out of my hands, terrorism is out of my hands..."

"So that can lead to what's called catastrophic thinking, that imagining the worst scenario of what might happen and then believing that that's what will happen."

Narrator: "Surprisingly, being certain about the end can actually bring relief to those suffering anxiety..."

Susan Tanner: "Apocalyptic thinking can be very useful to people who need to feel a sense of control, and that they therefore feel calm because they know what's going to happen. Living with uncertainty, living with a question mark is the hardest thing to do for all human beings. We like to know what's going to happen. That's why we visit clairvoyants and you know we have our tarots read and all sorts of things...."
COMPASS: Apocalypse Now?

You are talking about the abnormal reaction, not the normal reaction.

And considering the the minuscule number of active posters here in this forum - relative to the two billion Christians worldwide, and the complexity of the posts - how many young people are actually reading the posts in this forum?

 

[Douggg]

Some futurists seem so bored by the gospel they seem to me to treat it as some boring background paper-work that has to be done to get to the GOOD STUFF - all those futurist timetables....

You are in the eschatology forum. So you are going to get charts and talks about the end times. Be thankful that you do.

From what I have noticed is many Amils feel the need to deliver sermons on salvation in their posts.

Everyone in this forum to participate must be a Christian, which means that the gospel is at the center of their soul. Sermons on salvation are not necessary for posters in this forum.

 

[trophy33]

I've been there. It was way back in 2004. The origins of my thinking were more secular, and scientific, as I had just joined an online group that was in a particularly scary part of the environmental movement. It almost operated like a secular cult.

They predicted all kinds of Mad Max Doomer scenarios for the 2010's. I'm not going into the whole subject of peak oil now (and I remain convinced there are significant geopolitical risks - see point 4 the Export Land Model). But I am also now very optimistic that there are attractive solutions to living with less or even without oil. (After all, from a climate point of view we can't even burn all the remaining oil let alone the gas and coal.)

But back in 2004 I didn't know what I know all the solutions I know today. I was convinced the threats were real - but wanted action to mitigate the coming horrors. But my continual arguments for hope and action did not convince many people in that group. One young man was convinced that in just a few years he would be forced to watch his family starve to death in the terror of societal collapse. He could not cope, and rode his pushbike out to his favourite national park, climbed up a tree, and hung himself. To this day I hold the Doomer leader of that email group responsible.
Restoring Mayberry: The moment of darkness

In a similar way, I worry about the side-effects of the futurist time-tables here.

First of all, I worry about the young people reading all your blogs and putting their hope in various short-term timetables of the Lord's return. What if they believe you? What if they LIVE BY your blog – and make terrible and unwise decisions in the mania that such “knowledge” can sometimes cause? What happens when your timetable does not come true - the way so many other timetables have failed before?

They might give up Christ, the worst outcome.

It can also have other effects. “Knowing” the end of the world can give the easily influenced an exciting mission and purpose, make them feel superior to others just getting on with their lives - and also give them a personal martyr complex as everyone around them rejects their mania. It’s such a well known phenomenon amongst both religious and secular Doomers that it has a name - “Cassandra Syndrome”. It can make people do and say some very unwise things, sometimes with profound consequences and regrets.
Cassandra (metaphor) - Wikipedia

Second, I worry about this superiority complex many in both religious and secular cults get. They think they *know* what is coming - and it makes them superior to others. They're special, like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies. They sort of look down at everyone else as mere consumers. They are special, but we uninformed masses are just the "Sheeple", just getting on with our silly middle-class lives. But how does this display Christian humility? We are meant to be so grateful for our forgiveness of sins that the gospel overwhelms us and we want to talk about it - with gentleness and respect - with everyone we meet. Not some silly unverifiable timetable.

Third, I strongly suspect many Christians fall for the security of this worldview. Back in the day, I was watching some Christian friends on the ABC's religion show, Compass. My friends were called on because they had are experts in Millennial fears. Dr John Dickson and Dr Greg Clarke wrote "666 and all that" – a great little book that covers the Amil case. But more relevant is the interview with the psychologist as to why Apocalyptic Thinking is so attractive. I’ll hand you all over to Compass.
___

Narrator: "Psychologists like Susan Tanner are also concerned about the impact of doomsday thinking."

THE PSYCHOLOGIST: Susan Tanner: "Now many things are not predictable. The world is a very uncertain place. People change their jobs, organisations fold, collapse, you know, There is no guarantee in anything any more...Global threats like war, climate change certainly create anxiety too because the future is no longer guaranteed... ....that sort of unpredictability and uncertainty creates a lot of anxiety, and anxiety is often a precursor to depression."

"Unresolved anxiety sets people up for depression, because you can then feel despondent that well there actually isn't anything I can do. Because climate change is out of my hands, terrorism is out of my hands..."

"So that can lead to what's called catastrophic thinking, that imagining the worst scenario of what might happen and then believing that that's what will happen."

Narrator: "Surprisingly, being certain about the end can actually bring relief to those suffering anxiety..."

Susan Tanner: "Apocalyptic thinking can be very useful to people who need to feel a sense of control, and that they therefore feel calm because they know what's going to happen. Living with uncertainty, living with a question mark is the hardest thing to do for all human beings. We like to know what's going to happen. That's why we visit clairvoyants and you know we have our tarots read and all sorts of things...."
COMPASS: Apocalypse Now?

Very well said. I have a similar experience, I grew up in a dispensationalist church, almost every Sunday was some preaching about Israel, Russia, USA, EU, how it fits something in the Bible. "Prophets" were prophecising events in Israel "this year, next year, ok, next year..." and nothing ever happened.
I spent soooo much time in reading books, magazines and websites about future, antichrist and rapture (as a child, I even had a small brochure on the table to tell the "left ones" after the rapture what happened and how they must suffer now to be saved).

A huge amount of money is in this, 500+ pages books, courses, even travelling "teachers" "explaining" Daniel or Revelation and connecting it to various current political events are sold to poor people and new Christians, to prepare them for something, even though its nothing more than a Christian genre of sci-fi.

When I put this all away, I live a much peaceful, more deep and and more full Christian life without being manipulated.

 

[trophy33]

Everyone in this forum to participate must be a Christian, which means that the gospel is at the center of their soul. Sermons on salvation are not necessary for posters in this forum.

The thing is that, many futurists relates their knowledge about their futurist theology to their actual salvation. Their fear from being "left behind" equals their fear of losing salvation. Some futurist "teachers" even teach that you cannot be saved after rapture or you must suffer horribly to get saved - and similar stuff. And children in churches or families hears this too, constantly.

This fear is used by many to sell them repeatably the remedy - various fantasies and timetables to "prepare" them and therefore to save them from "the horrible things that are coming".

While this forum has full preterism not allowed, I think that this kind of "full futurism" is much more dangerous and sectarian.

 

[Douggg]

Very well said. I have a similar experience, I grew up in a dispensationalist church, almost every Sunday was some preaching about Israel, Russia, USA, EU, how it fits something in the Bible. "Prophets" were prophecising events in Israel "this year, next year, ok, next year..." and nothing ever happened.
I spent soooo much time in reading books, magazines and websites about future, antichrist and rapture (as a child, I even had a small brochure on the table to tell the "left ones" after the rapture what happened and how they must suffer now to be saved).

A huge amount of money is in this, 500+ pages books, courses, even travelling "teachers" "explaining" Daniel or Revelation and connecting it to various current political events are sold to poor people and new Christians, to prepare them for something, even though its nothing more than a Christian genre of sci-fi.

When I put this all away, I live a much peaceful, more deep and and more full Christian life without being manipulated.

In hindsight, would you said that they were too intense in discussing the topic? Creating pressure on you.

To me, the purpose of the church organization is to take the pressure off.

Taking the pressure off is at the essence of the gospel of salvation, knowing that no matter what by believing and trusting in Jesus, His death and resurrection - we have eternal life.

That relief of pressure needs to be said every church meeting. With the pressure off, and the assurance of that Christians are not appointed to see the wrath to come - then the events of end time can be presented - and not to over intensive it by tone and delivery so as to put pressure on the congregation. Relieving pressures is the rest of that Jesus gives.

 

[eclipsenow]

You are in the eschatology forum. So you are going to get charts and talks about the end times. Be thankful that you do.

From what I have noticed is many Amils feel the need to deliver sermons on salvation in their posts.

Look, I totally get that if you go to a talk on Christians and marriage, it had better have something about marriage in it and not be a massive theological introduction to Christology 101 and Gospel 101 etc.

But the thing with eschatology from an Amil focus is that it really is vastly more gospel focussed because the gospel events of Jesus death and resurrection fulfil all the OT promises of peace and security and land and temple and sacrifice and eternity and a new heaven and new earth - right then and there - in eschatological tension. The now and not yet of these last days we live in. In the OT, they wanted to live in the land to be safe. In the NT, we are in that land! We are citizens of heaven. But we are not there yet physically - the 'now but not yet' nature of the age we live in. We are to 'make every effort to enter that rest.' The New Heavens and New Earth are going to be vastly different to now - they are where our true security is. Revelation 20's 'Gazillion years' reminds us that even if we are killed now, our safety is in Christ. We will one day be vindicated. And Satan is locked up NOW, in the sense that he cannot stop the gospel going forward into all the nations. Satan is also persecuting us NOW, in the other metaphors in Revelation when he inspires the nations to turn against God's people, etc. So we see Satan simultaneously persecuting God's people and being bound in very specific regard to God's church - the inability of the gospel message to be extinguished. All that is just a quick sketch of the now and not yet 'eschatological tension' of the peace and security we have as part of God's kingdom... the promise of peace while we live in his kingdom now.

Eschatological tension is why chatting with an Amil can feel like everything is a gospel sermon.

But here's the thing. Maybe it is? If we're right, then the NT is all about Jesus events in the past securing our future - and that even Revelation reminds John's generation of suffering Christians of that as well. It fits, comforts John's generation, and teaches us.

Drawing up end-times-tables just seems to take everyone's focus off truer ways of reading these passages that actually focus on the gospel.

 

[trophy33]

In hindsight, would you said that they were too intense in discussing the topic? Creating pressure on you.

To, the purpose of the church organization is to take the pressure off.

Taking the pressure off is at the essence of the gospel of salvation, knowing that no matter what by believing and trusting in Jesus, His death and resurrection - we have eternal life.

That relief of pressure needs to be said every church meeting. With the pressure off, and the assurance of that Christians are not appointed to see the wrath to come - then the events of end time can be presented - and not to over intensive it by tone and delivery so as to put pressure on the congregation. Relieving pressures is the rest of that Jesus gives.

I have been to several churches and I think the communities were quite similar to each other. In each church are people who are more fanatical about some topic and people who are less.

But because I was a child or later teenager and young adult, it gave me paranoia and anxiety and to this day I must struggle with some subconcious fear that somebody (some all knowing government or organization preparing some torture for Christians) is watching and preparing something satanic in the background to come, even though I rationally know its not true.

Because of this, if it was on me, I would not allow futurism on Christian forums. It can damage people, its a dangerous ideology.

 

[Douggg]

Look, I totally get that if you go to a talk on Christians and marriage, it had better have something about marriage in it and not be a massive theological introduction to Christology 101 and Gospel 101 etc.

But the thing with eschatology from an Amil focus is that it really is vastly more gospel focussed because the gospel events of Jesus death and resurrection fulfil all the OT promises of peace and security and land and temple and sacrifice and eternity and a new heaven and new earth - right then and there - in eschatological tension. The now and not yet of these last days we live in. In the OT, they wanted to live in the land to be safe. In the NT, we are in that land! We are citizens of heaven. But we are not there yet physically - the 'now but not yet' nature of the age we live in. We are to 'make every effort to enter that rest.' The New Heavens and New Earth are going to be vastly different to now - they are where our true security is. Revelation 20's 'Gazillion years' reminds us that even if we are killed now, our safety is in Christ. We will one day be vindicated. And Satan is locked up NOW, in the sense that he cannot stop the gospel going forward into all the nations. Satan is also persecuting us NOW, in the other metaphors in Revelation when he inspires the nations to turn against God's people, etc. So we see Satan simultaneously persecuting God's people and being bound in very specific regard to God's church - the inability of the gospel message to be extinguished. All that is just a quick sketch of the now and not yet 'eschatological tension' of the peace and security we have as part of God's kingdom... the promise of peace while we live in his kingdom now.

Eschatological tension is why chatting with an Amil can feel like everything is a gospel sermon.

But here's the thing. Maybe it is? If we're right, then the NT is all about Jesus events in the past securing our future - and that even Revelation reminds John's generation of suffering Christians of that as well. It fits, comforts John's generation, and teaches us.

Drawing up end-times-tables just seems to take everyone's focus off truer ways of reading these passages that actually focus on the gospel.

To me, it boils down to - is the amount of love a person has for God?

If a person really loves God then they are strongly drawn to what God's plans are and everything God has done, is doing, and will do - which God had gone to extraordinary lengths to reveal to mankind.

And God responds to that person in kind.

Them who don't - just don't care, that's what it boils down to.

 

[eclipsenow]

I have been to several churches and I think the community was quite similar to each other. In each church are people who are more fanatical about some topic and people who are less.

But because I was a child or later teenager and young adult, it gave me paranoia and anxiety and to this day I must struggle with some subconcious fear that somebody (some all knowing government preparing some torture for Christians) is watching and preparing something satanic in the background to come.

The sad reality is to be Christian is to be ready to experience prejudice and even persecution and hatred. As history has shown, empires come and go, governments change and fall, and there is no security this side of heaven. That is the warning of Revelation. But as an Amil, I don't think there is an inevitable worldwide 'beast' coming to get us - that was a picture of Rome - which was the archetypal global empire turned bad against God's people. Here's an interesting fact though. I've heard of people in persecuted churches in really oppressive countries that read Revelation as a book of comfort. They get the Amil perspective, can see the warnings and encourages in Revelation - and are overjoyed by the message. It is their hope, not their despair, and they are living it!

I get the impression Revelation becomes a bit of a Christian version of the campfire ghost story. Especially online, where you can hide behind an avatar and huddle around virtual 'campfires' - indulging all manner of wild speculation and fantasy thought-experiments. I'm sorry it sounds like you were subjected to that kind of wild paranoid speculation - and only hope you can avoid that kind of church moving forward. I mean, this kind of paranoia has put my own dad's (AOG) church off getting vaccinated - because it's a mark of the beast - or something - and someone powerful with some kind of agenda will someday do something with the fact that we're all protected against the scientifically testable and provable Sars-Cov-2 virus... or something. It's just another area where I wince with embarrassment at the behaviour of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Another area where they have unnecessarily set themselves up against science and made the gospel look foolish. Another area where futurist speculation has side-tracked countless Christians time and again.

 

[Douggg]

Because of this, if it was on me, I would not allow futurism on Christian forums. It can damage people, its a dangerous ideology.

Futurism is not an "ideology". It is an eschatological view regarding the end times prophecies in the bible.

 

[Douggg]

I mean, this kind of paranoia has put my own dad's (AOG) church off getting vaccinated - because it's a mark of the beast - or something - and someone powerful with some kind of agenda will someday do something with the fact that we're all protected against the scientifically testable and provable Sars-Cov-2 virus... or something. It's just another area where I wince with embarrassment at the behaviour of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Another area where they have unnecessarily set themselves up against science and made the gospel look foolish. Another area where futurist speculation has side-tracked countless Christians time and again.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Just take my chart and show them it cannot be the mark of the beast because so many other things have to take place first.

 

[eclipsenow]

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

No - I'm draining the bathwater's soapy suds down the plughole to reveal there never was any baby. Someone had already used the bath - in a one-for-all kind of way to mix metaphors - so that I can be washed clean.

 

[Dave G.]

I have been to several churches and I think the communities were quite similar to each other. In each church are people who are more fanatical about some topic and people who are less.

But because I was a child or later teenager and young adult, it gave me paranoia and anxiety and to this day I must struggle with some subconcious fear that somebody (some all knowing government or organization preparing some torture for Christians) is watching and preparing something satanic in the background to come, even though I rationally know its not true.

Because of this, if it was on me, I would not allow futurism on Christian forums. It can damage people, its a dangerous ideology.

So crucifixions of Christians in parts of the world, decapitations of Christians in parts of the world, church closings if you don't tout the party line has infiltrated in some western countries, church burnings in Canada and huge fines for gathering in some areas of the US and Canada doesn't bother you then ? That to you shows no signal ?

It's something when government mandates you can't gather at church but strip clubs are open ! This should speak to you, and we have gone through that right here in the US.

The world is waxing worse and worse, which is predicted. But still the time is not yet. And yes meanwhile there is the Gospel message to get out there and as much falling away as there is, also people still come to Christ in this time we live in. The message should not be of no warning in church, Jesus told us to look for the signs, He described them and stated "but the time is not yet", went on to say to look up because your redemption draws nears. We've been in the end times for 2000 years and one day it will come to pass.

Date setters are false teachers though. We are told to have our lamps full of oil none the less. You shouldn't be scared of the message unless you love this life more than the life to come. And that's a really good question to get squared away in each of our heads.

 

[trophy33]

The sad reality is to be Christian is to be ready to experience prejudice and even persecution and hatred.

It was for the first Christians, it was for some Christians in communism etc. But its totally wrong to preach that to children or adults who are living in free countries, to "prepare" for horror movies in real life. To scare them with microchips, vaccination, biometric passports, birth numbers, barcodes on goods, EU, paying with card instead of cash, to look for 666 everywhere, to teach them a coming massacre of Jews in Palestine, to teach them that antichrist will rule over all the planet so there will be no safe place to run to... you name it, the list goes on and on.

Futurism should be labeled 18+ and with a warning "its a personal interpretation of individuals, not something that is certain to happen".

Which is the opposite of what futurist teachers say - they teach it is certain, with all their made up charts and time tables and carefully selected news collections (which they must edit every 10 years because nothing they predicted happened).

In today's USA you can even just look at somebody to insult them, but these horrors are preached and spread over internet freely without notice. Because money. Fear sells and scared people (of Russia, of China, of EU, of government, of some hidden dark satanic agenda in background...) are easily manipulated.

And then, when I say I am a preterist, I get threats to be reported or banned. Very adequate...

 

[eclipsenow]

It's something when government mandates you can't gather at church but strip clubs are open !

I gather this is about some local government's weird social distancing policy that looks particular bad to particularly paranoid Christians? Yeah, not the same thing as the beast imagery from Revelation. Believe it or not, this is the government trying to PROTECT people - including Christians - from the virus.

The world is waxing worse and worse, which is predicted.

As a reader of history and of various environmental and challenges to civilisation itself, I can say no - not yet anyway. It's the best time to be alive. We have the best nutrition, best medicine, best education potential (even if people don't use it), and best energy systems being developed for abundant clean low-carbon energy to protect us from climate change.

But still the time is not yet.

Could be in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know!

Jesus told us to look for the signs

No he didn't - he said it would be unknowable, like the Days of Noah, and like a master catching his evil servants unprepared, like the groom catching the maidens without their oil, and so many other images and metaphors for people being completely surprised by when the Lord would return.