I think I'm now officially "post-Charismatic"

[ccr9017]

I just found this thread and haven't read all the way through it. But it relates to what I'm going through also.

Recently I joined a Baptist Church that believes all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are needed and necessary today. The preaching of the Word solid, scripture interpreting scripture to put it that way. It's a good change.

Someone asked about Calvinist or Freewill. They tend towards Freewill but I don't think they are Calvinist or Arminian....both groups are right on some things. There's a much bigger picture on that topic and that's God's viewpoint but we all know that takes lifetimes of many Christians to learn and all eternity.

 

[CGL1023]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

To me, Baptists minimize the Holy Spirit. Mark 16:17,18 mention signs following the believer. This may be thought of as the definition of a believer. The listed signs originate from no other source than the Holy Spirit. The consequence of denying or minimizing the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Matthew 12:32. I am mentioning how I think about these issues and offer it only FYI, not as a matter of debate or passing judgement.

I had an experience similar to yours in visiting a Baptist church for several months. I had a reaction similar to yours in that the preaching was refreshing, etc. I later learned about the importance of the Holy Spirit.

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[Tamara224]

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Hi CGL, welcome to CF

I actually got kicked out of that church about a year ago. It wasn't directly about the Holy Spirit but their views on the importance of the Holy Spirit certainly played a part in it.

 

[Bridgit]

Interesting. What church do you go to now?

 

[John Zain]

Okay, I do appreciate all of your concerns and frustrations.
But, these people are missing out on God's power (i.e. the 9 spiritual gifts).

Smith Wigglesworth probably was God's #1 evangelist world-wide for 20+ years ... and he said,
"If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you're living in a weak and impoverished condition."

Evangelising without this baptism really is quite a joke.
.

 

[hopeinGod]

For over a couple of decades now there has been a growing recognition within the church of the costs of extremism. All denominations can create a kind of intensity of some sort, even an intense boredom.

Regarding charismatic fellowships, however, the conclusions by some writers is that over-stimulation, anticipation, projection, and compulsive association can cause one's faith to become toxic. Burn out is always its end which sometimes can last a lifetime.

To be where the atmosphere is genuinely healthy and where there is no continual make-it-up-as-we-go theology -- as we have all witnessed within the charismatic community -- is immensely needful for the overall health of the Church. The sad truth is, that the intent for always coming up with more and more new and improved movements within the spirit-filled community is for the initiators to maintain financial support, to keep them builidng their kingdoms, and to keep the flocks always wanting more of the "deeper things of God," whether such moves are truly of God or not.

So, no wonder charismatics, or former charismatics, are testing the waters at other places. I say, go for it. Take a break from charismatic involvement if you need to. You may find the experience refreshing.
Dave

 

[lismore]

Hi CGL, welcome to CF

I actually got kicked out of that church about a year ago. It wasn't directly about the Holy Spirit but their views on the importance of the Holy Spirit certainly played a part in it.

Hi Tamara

God works all things for the good. I was very sad when I left my AOG church in 2007 after 8 years, so I know how it feels!

Hope you are well

 

[lismore]

The preaching of the Word solid, scripture interpreting scripture to put it that way. It's a good change.

From my experience of the pentecostal church I think that the main thing we were lacking.

There were some in the church who were not born again because the gospel was not preached, there were some who did not have the basics of the faith because there was no bible teaching.

It was driven music then 'be positive' type teachings.

So good, good!

 

[salamacum]

Post-charismatic? Maybe we should have a forum for those that have left a denomination. I'd love to find out why people move. What is it that disillusions them?
In my charismatic (sorry pentecostal - by an administrative move we are now part of assemblies of God and believe something else) we still fete people. Some of these I've known for some time. And this is a real part of the problem. I hope its not jealousy. It's just that one speaker who is known for 'hearing God" actually has a terrible record of moves and relocations. Each time it was a call of God and it's gone pearshaped. If you followed her example closely you'd make emotional shipwreck of yourself. OK, she and her husband live in great faith and indeed riskily and want to "do his will". But I don't think she knows any better than anyone who reads his bible. Also there's this terrible emotional damage from her past. Result - one very bad and unempathetic boss. In one sense it's dangerous. After years of the women being encouraged to regard themselves as independent individuals before God, she has now told them to respect their husbands. Wasn't that in the bible anyway. Why does it need to come over prophetically?
I'm sure but this is part of my disillusionment.

 

[John Zain]

This lady you mention still could have had the gift of prophecy and been used by God.
No one is perfect.

First, it is nice if the church leaders know (through the Spirit) who has what gifts.
Then the church is responsible for comparing peoples' prophecies with Scripture.
If anything comes forth which does not line up with Scripture, obviously it is to be discarded.
And the church (through the Spirit) is responsible for discerning if a particular prophecy was actually from the Lord.
This is the NT church way of doing things.
.

 

[lismore]

Post-charismatic? Maybe we should have a forum for those that have left a denomination. I'd love to find out why people move. What is it that disillusions them?.

I am ex-Assemblies of God.

I left after eight years because the new pastor preached 'be positive' types of messages instead of word based messages. When you spoke to him on your own he was negative about people, gossipy and insecure.

The pastoral care was zero people fell ill or dropped out and were never followed up on. One ex member was recently found dead in his home, his body lay undiscovered for several weeks. (The Lord gave me the example of the good shepherd, who leaves the ninety nine and finds the lost sheep in regard to this)

I was on the worship team . There were several worship leaders jostling for position, the pastor liked to pinch worship leaders and musicians from other churches by offering them positions. The Elim church wrote a letter of complaint about the sheep stealing. Some left soon after for another church, one worship leader lasted just a week.

The week I resigned from the music group the pastor told us we were playing too enthusiastically and were stealing his limelight.

The last week I went to the church I went in late, the pastor was speaking. He said that some members had gone against him in his last church in South Africa and had been burned to death in a car crash as a result. 'Touch not the Lord's anointed' all that stuff. I asked the lady sitting next to me what this angry rant was about, apparently six members had left the church that week including the treasurer over financial irregularities.

(They were in debt but the pastor refused to travel by train to the AOG conference because it was beneath his status as a mighty positive confessor)

When the pastor mentioned people being burned to death for crossing him and I saw the vehemence in his voice I stood up and walked out. I later wrote a letter to the two elders who I was very friendly with resigning my membership.

The pastor was asked to step down about a year later because the church was in the red. Too many members had been driven out. I was sad because I remembered very happy times there and the thriving place it once had been.

How deserted the church once so full of people!

So that's why I left a denomination.

 

[salamacum]

Hello Lismore,

What a terrible story. It is a power-play and a kind of sorcery, isn't it?
But back to this prophet I was talking about. I know she has a prophetic gift (but I don't think it's as prophetic as she does) and she has spoken into my situation at least once quite accurately.
The point I'm making (and its not particularly her, but other up-front people), they are just not rounded or developed emotionally. Some of the fizz and fireworks and 'presence' is I'm afraid to hide insecurities.
I just don't like the power she has to influence so many people.

 

[lismore]

Prophecies must be tested. Hold fast to the good, jettison the rest.

 

[John Zain]

I am ex-Assemblies of God.

I am not writing to be critical of you ... because your disgust is entirely understandable.
But, aren't you throwing the baby out with the bath water?
Aren't you trashing an entire denomination because of the actions of one man?
Let it be said that their work for the Lord in the past has been invaluable.
In the present, I really have no idea.
Blessings, brother ... I hope you find a nice small pentecostal/charismatic church with a devout pastor.
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[lismore]

I am not writing to be critical of you ... because your disgust is entirely understandable.
But, aren't you throwing the baby out with the bath water?
Aren't you trashing an entire denomination because of the actions of one man?
Let it be said that their work for the Lord in the past has been invaluable.
In the present, I really have no idea.
Blessings, brother ... I hope you find a nice small pentecostal/charismatic church with a devout pastor.
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Hi John

I am sure there are AOG churches in other places that are good, in the USA and England and the like, so I agree with your point.

The only other AOG church I visited here had some strange views, they had an Imam giving a presentation at their Sunday meeting on shared values which just didn't sit right with me. How can a muslim cleric give the sermon in a church? I think AOG in this locality is in a mess.

So yes I take your point

 

[lismore]

Post-charismatic?

For me the term post-Charismatic does not mean not believing in the gifts of the Spirit.

It means moving past some of the abuses seen in some of the Pente-Charismatic churches

E.G Bad Shepherding (Ezekiel 34)
Poor teaching ( 2 Timothy 4:3)

 

[lismore]

Blessings, brother ... I hope you find a nice small pentecostal/charismatic church with a devout pastor.
.

thank you indeed

 

[geetrue]

Satan has been know to split churches

Imagine what God could do by getting just one believer to get up and walk out?

I too have left the rivalist movement for the simple study of the word of God and to be a doer of the word not just a hearer.

Oswald Chambers said these days would come in our normal growth with Jesus Christ ...

How did Oswald get so smart to know that years later a simple change for Jesus would leave others behind?

 

[salamacum]

Hello Geetrue,
Sorry I didn't really understand what you are saying.
My issue at present is how so much in charismatic churches is driven by personality. Personal leadership preferences or prophetic biases. I can see why systematic bible study is such an attractive alternative.
Apart from the fact that so many preachers take themselves and their ministry so seriously. When I get to know so many leaders and movers and shakers I am surprised how weak and insecure they are. Often the charismatic fireworks IS a some form of attention-seeking. One 'prophet' got quite emotional and sensitive because I didn't lionise her or get enthousiastic about her prophecies.

 

[lismore]

Post-Charismatic- it is possible to believe in and experience the gifts of the Spirit while trying to get away from some of the abuses of the current Charismatic and Pentecostal movement.