I think I'm in some deep doo-doo.

[Faithful83]

I have done some research on whether or not baptism is required for salvation, and have found something that states that the Bible makes it clear that it is. The computer won't let me paste anything, nor will it give me the exact URL I'd like to link to, but for the article that I'm speaking of, click here and go down a bit to where there's a Baptism link. Sorry for the drill-down.

Anyway, the article, to summarize, says that the Bible clearly states that baptism is required for salvation and gives scriptures to support this. The scriptures they provide do, in fact, seem to state rather clearly that baptism is required for salvation.

I have seen the scriptures and accept that this is the case. However I have a problem.

Due to lack of transportation, I can't even go to church like I'd like to do, so obviously baptism would be an issue. I feel like I have a relationship with God (of course since baptism is clearly required for salvation could that be Satan just making me think I do?), I have an interest in Bible study, and it disturbs me when I meet someone who is not saved (even though it looks like I may not be due to lack of baptism).

I'm sure there will come some point in my lifetime where I will have the opportunity to be baptized and I'd certainly jump on such an opportunity, BUT that assumes that I won't get killed tomorrow or something, which of course is a bad and dangerous assumption to make.

Any ideas? Is this article wrong (and if so please provide scriptural references to back that up)? Am I really not saved when I thought all this time that I was?
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/

 

[missiondocsda]

As in your faith, you shall be in Heaven with the Lord. Baptism, or baptizo, is an immersion of the body, by water, to symbolize the death of the past is now renew in Christ Jesus the Lord. The core is the baptism of the Spirit daily, that is the real baptism.

Typical baptism is very much on public proclaimation of the soul conversion, for no one can see the conversion, the baptism is a kind of confession to the public, and the congregation can recognize for sure, the person has received the Christ.

Even christians attending church for ages, but without the change of heart, in Holy spirit, it is fruitless. Therefore, the real immersion to heaven is the baptizo of the Spirit. It is undertood if you can't make it for your condition. God is so loving to accept who you are, as you open your heart as He knocks.

God bless.

 

[seangoh]

hi faithful83, you seem to have done some good research on your own. Unfortunately, i'm unable to give you a practical answer at the moment as i have my exams. But i suggest you look into 2 resources.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media/radio/question_archive.asp?tName=Baptism
That would deal with "Is private baptism without a pastor Biblically valid?"

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=660&x=30&y=41
That would give you further insight into the whole baptism issue including the mode of baptism and rebaptism.

May your study be blessed.

 

[Rafael]

Instead of arguing whether or not it is essential for salvation, I think God will judge and see the hearts of all men. Some will be baptized and look like Christians all the way to the time where the Lord says "depart I knew you not", and the Bible clearly states this will happen and people will argue with Him about it at judgment day. A person is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and we follow the Lord in baptizm to obey His instructions for public confession of our death to the old and resurrection to new life in Jesus.
Being baptized is an easy thing to do, but dying to self daily and picking up our cross to follow Him isn't. Learning to give our lives away and living like we have really died to self is the hard part, and we learn how to do it as we grow in God's grace. He is the husbandman that prunes the vine and makes us to bear fruit in our lives - cutting away the old so that the new will bloom and give the fruit of the Spirit. This takes time, but being a servant and brother of the Lord is worth everything.

I'll bet that someone would come and pick you up for Church if you'd ask, so maybe try that and then be baptized so the problem doesn't exist.

 

[Sephania]

Baptism is something You do after confessing your sins and doing this to show that you have turned away from them. It is about repentance, not salvation. It is about preparation to walk on G-ds true path, not a key to get into heaven. Those that came to the Jordan river where John was preaching were not baptized by John, but in witness of John, who was preparing the people for the coming Messiah. They were cleansing themselves in preparation for his arrival. Yeshua, Jesus is Holy , and as such they needed to be clean to be in his presence to be able to understand his teachings and be ready for the kingdom of Heaven.

John did not immerse them, rather they immersed themselves in his presence, three times they would go down under the waters.

I know of others who have done this themselves with a few witnesses present. It needs to be a living body of water, river, spring fed lake, ocean for it to be truly Biblical.

 

[bluesgal]

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Trench777]

You must be baptised to be obedient.

You do not have to be baptised to go to heaven.

This is not my "opinion" (or I would not bother stating it). It is an act of obedience, because the bible tells us to do it.

The reason I can confidently state that it is not a requirement to go to heaven follows:

I quote: "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Jesus Christ said this to the thief on the cross next to Him who accepted Him as the Son of G-d. The man was NOT water baptised and DID NOT get water baptised. Either A: Jesus lied to him (we know that's not the case) or B: Water baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

If that is not unargueable Truth that you do not have to be water baptised to go to heaven (the words directly from the mouth of The Messiah) then I don't know what is.

May His Word be a light to your path anda lamp to your feet!

T777

 

[Faithful83]

Well, I at one point thought that the thief on the cross was an arguable point as well. However I've heard a rebuttal to that point being that he died before the resurrection and was therefore under the Old Testament law, and therefore Jesus could save him without water baptism.

So I'm not sure how well the thief arguement holds water (no pun intended). It makes sense, but the rebuttal makes sense too.

 

[phnx]

*Post deleted*

 

[Trench777]

Interesting...but if we follow the reasoning along those lines, then Jesus gave us a new, worse covenant. Now, instead of needing to believe in Him, we need to believe in Him AND be water baptised, in order to be saved. Rather than being saved by grace, through faith (like the thief) we now need to be saved by grace, through faith AND water baptism?

I have no problem at all discarding my doctrine in the light of the Truth...that just doesn't have the ring of Truth in my spirit. Does it in yours?

T777

 

[Faithful83]

Well, I'm not sure...there is Mark 16:16. I'm just kinda trying to figure out what has the ring of truth in my spirit.

 

[Trench777]

I looked up the (original Greek) Strong's definition of "baptised" used in Mark 16:16 & it is the word "Baptizo" as opposed to "bapto".

"Bapto" means dipped and indicates a temporary change.
"Baptizo" means immersed in, until a permenant change takes place.

The footnotes in the definition I read state the following (Take this as you will, as it is NOT scripture, but someones interpretation):

Baptizo:"When used in the New Testament, the word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ, than to our water baptism e.g. Mark 16:16"

Interestingly, the footnotes regarding the definition of the word, actually point to the scripture we are talking about.

Please note, I'm not trying to "defend" my viewpoint, but trying to find the Truth, with you.

T777

 

[Faithful83]

Original Greek means the way it was written originally before all the newer translations came out, right?

 

[Silent Enigma]

Now, instead of needing to believe in Him, we need to believe in Him AND be water baptised, in order to be saved. Rather than being saved by grace, through faith (like the thief) we now need to be saved by grace, through faith AND water baptism?

I believe that baptism is an integral part of a scriptural conversion process. But I do not in any way believe that you are saved by "grace plus baptism", that's ridiculous. It's part of recieveing the grace. If you open a person's front door to pick up a present they wanted to give you, did you earn the present thru your work of door-opening? No, but was part of the process of picking it up.

Now I am not going to go and say things like everyone who isn't scripturally baptized is going straight to hell. Judgment was given unto Christ and he knows peoples thoughts and intentions. But we should strive to follow a scriptural method of conversion. I mean, if we're not going to follow the bible's examples on that, why be a stickler about anything else?

Also, Faithful 83 mentioned that she feels God in her life even though she is not baptized, and that a person could construe it as Satan messing with her mind. Now wait a minute, look at Acts 10 here... (you'll have to read chapter 10 up to this point for it to make sense)

Acts 10:44-48

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV

The Holy Spirit fell on the listeners prior to baptism. Also, an angel of God spoke to Cornelius at the beginning of ch 10, long before his baptism or knowledge of Christ.

My point is that God works with people. So having God work in your life doesn't verify that a person is already saved, nor should people assume it's satan because they haven't done "x" thing.

Hope this post helps.

One last thing, if you're intent being baptized, have a friend do it with you in a river or pool or whatever. It doesn't have to be a large, formal, in-a-church-building thing.

 

[missiondocsda]

Yes the baptism of water. As we have gone down the msg, the msg has been fine, but when it comes to water baptism, what does Jesus means?

I have asked myself when this comes to my mind, does the water holds some water for the transformation of the heart through the Spirit? Does the Spirit needs so much water?

Or can the symbolism be so important to go thru the gate of Heaven? Can there be some exceptions? Is God's hand too short in exceptional cases? B'coz this cannot be the stumbling block to anyone desires to seek the Lord in Heaven yet there are some incapability to do so. Or this symbolism becomes a ritual ceremony in New testament time?

As far as i concern, i know the Lord is gracious. When I could be baptized without difficulties and obstacles, I was baptized, and when there were people could not be baptized, the Lord has mercy on them. God is not rigid and stiff, He has ways to deal with justice and mercy. Do what we can and leave our choice with Him, He will make it the best. Trust Him.

Good care.

 

[Trench777]

Original Greek means the way it was written originally before all the newer translations came out, right?

Yes, ma'am. Original Greek meaning; the actual words writen, that were then translated into English. The original word found in Mark 16:16 is "baptizo", meaning what I stated in my last post...it appears to have been used more as a "symbolic" statement, than the literal "dipping in water" (although, not exclusively)

To the last 2 posts above this one...I fully agree that G-d is gracious and not stiff. I believe (as I kinda said in the 1st place) that we ARE saved by grace, through faith. Period. Baptism IS an act of obedience and a public admission of an inward change.

Sometimes (like the nature of this thread) we are moved to dig deeper into the meanings of The Word. We find, when digging deeper, that G-d's Word does NOT contradict Itself, nor is It ever found lacking. It is a witness unto Itself. G-d honors our desire to look into the mysteries hidden in The Word for us and the Truth can withstand any amount of inspection/disection.

Faithful83: I would like to recommend that you pick yuorself up a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, with the Hebrew/Greek dictionaries (they all come in one book). I think your seeking of the Truth is admirable and to be commended. I know that a Strong's Concordance can be a VERY valuable tool, in that it can help you get a reference point when reading the words that sometimes..."get distorted". By that, I mean there are words and phrases that have shifted meanings over the years since the KJV has been written and by going back and looking at the original meanings of words, sometimes the Truth will come shining through like a beacon!

May G-d BLESS you mightily for your hunger and thirst for the unadulterated Word of G-d!

Your brother in Christ and fellow-seeker,

T777

 

[Sephania]

Well, I at one point thought that the thief on the cross was an arguable point as well. However I've heard a rebuttal to that point being that he died before the resurrection and was therefore under the Old Testament law, and therefore Jesus could save him without water baptism.

So I'm not sure how well the thief arguement holds water (no pun intended). It makes sense, but the rebuttal makes sense too.

If this is only something to do after the resurrection then why was John doing it in the Jordan, and why did Yeshua immerse himself?

 

[Where]

If I may try and help...

Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe is condemned already.

This DOES NOT mean that the baptism is need to go to heaven.
Ok listen carefully. You should notice in the first part of this verse that it says "He who believes and is baptized WILL BE saved..." this is future-tense. Compare this with John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not parish but HAS everlasting life." As you can see, this is in present-tense, so it is immeadiate. So ALL you have to do is believe that Jesus died and Rose again for your sins to go to heaven.
Also notice in Mark 16:16, that it says " but he who does not believe is condemned already." Nothing about baptizm is mentioned there. Basically, in the Bible, the word "saved" can be used in different ways. In this way, it means that, because you are being baptized, you are showing the world that you are becoming a disciple of Christ(that is why we are baptized) Through this, you are saying that you will leave your own desires to follow Jesus. y doing this, you will be denying yourself and thereby become MORE protected aka. "saved" from sin since you are following thw Lord and try to resist sin. I am not saying that you will stop sinning, that won't happen until Jesus comes back, but you won't let sin rule you. nYou are taking up your cross and following Jesus Luke 9:23-- "Then he said to them,' if anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me."

I hope this helps. Please post more questions if you have them.
-Love
,in Him
Where?

 

[all47154]

If you feel convited to do so then it could be the spirit telling you to do this if you feel this is your desires and not of the spirit. Then if this pleases the lord He will give you the desires of your heart. As a christain we should never do anything with out first consulting the Lord. God bless

 

[grace4sds]

I believe baptism is a symbol to our love and commitment to Christ just as a wedding ring is a symbol of the love and commitment to our spouse. As far as the thief on the cross, even though Christ had not passed away at that point the thief believed Christ was there at that moment dying for his sins. I really believe baptism is important but not necessary for salvation. It is important you do what you feel in your heart that the holy spirit is leading you to do.