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i think i figured it out

Chalnoth

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No statues or images needed or allowed, just laws to live by.
Yup, just laws to live by. Like this gem:
Exodus 35:2 (NIV)
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Kill everybody who works on Saturday.

Or, hey, what about this one?
Luke 12:47-48 (NIV)
Beat servants when they are disobedient. And this straight from the mouth of Jesus. Gotta love it.

As for evidence of Jesus' existence, what would be required is historical documents dated from when he was supposed to be alive describing him (and yes, the Gospels fail here, because they are both not historical accounts, but written in an allegorical style, and also written thirty years or more after Jesus was supposed to have died).
 
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Logic_Fault

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While there are many differences, the simplest is He described Himself as the great I AM.
Oh, well then, that clinches it.

While just 2 simple words, they express an eternal being that exists before and after time. How long did it take human minds to come up with I think, therefore I am.
I personally think you're reading far too much into this "I AM" bit. I've never seen how claiming "I AM" as an identifier is supposed to mean anything, let alone that the one saying it created an entire universe and is the only God in existence.

No statues or images needed or allowed, just laws to live by.
Images being banned might make the religion unusual but by no means factual. Religious laws were nothing new either.

Much more logical than the other gods of the time who spent their time feasting and squabbling among themselves, turning into animals and running around sleeping with woman.
How was it your savior got here again? Oh yes, because your deity impregnated a virgin. How is this different from the Greek and Roman deities impregnating a woman/virgin with the result of a demigod being produced?

Instead, a God who cares about humankind and wants to do what's best for them.
The victims of the genocides he apparently ordered would beg to differ.

Or anyone involved in any of the events listed here.

Your original comment doubted his existance at all, it's good to see you have now conceded he did exist, just "not as described in the bible".
It's likely that the Biblical stories were based on an actual person but no, I don't believe he existed as he is depicted in the Bible. At best he was an apocalyptic preacher (likely one of many) who gained a cult following and was, possibly, crucified for some reason or other. I do not believe anything that was written about him in the Bible and nobody else in the entire area seems to have noticed him at all.

What would you consider evidence? Eye witness testamony?
Possibly. If it could be verified that the person actually was an eye witness and the document or documents could be authenticated in some way. Unfortunately, like I said, it seems everyone in the world failed to notice God incarnate except for a handful of people who can't even be shown to have existed themselves.

Documents talking about him?
Less useful. Anyone can write a book about a fictional character, or a person who's real whom they've never actually met.

Letters explaining his teachings?
Even less useful than documents mentioning him. I'm sure there are letters explaining the teachings of Vishnu too.

People willing to die for him?
As far as I'm aware it can't be shown that the Apostles, which is who I assume you're speaking of, existed. Even if all of them did exist and they all died for a belief it doesn't make it true. Many people die for beliefs that aren't true.

I'm happy with changed. So science (which is based on interpretation of observations) can modify itself without criticism,
It's not based on interpretation, it's based on repeatable experimentation among other things. As for criticism, that's precisely what scientists do to one another (or more accurately each other's ideas) incessantly. That's what peer review is for.

but religion (which is based on interpretations of scripture) isn't allowed to? Doesn't seem fair...
Science doesn't claim to get it's knowledge from the creator of the universe or an infallible book, now does it? If your God tells you something is so then it should be so. Unfortunately science often shows that that isn't the case.
 
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sodapop112

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in reponse to lynn18's question "Do you accept Human’s belief in god is a result of evolution and has an evolutionary reason?"

(sorry im to lazy to find the quote button) I think yes, as animals evolve and get smarter, they wonder about things that other, more primative animals cannot. I belive the reason is that people are confused about the world and a simple answer like a god made the world is what people want to belive.
 
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AV1611VET

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Since I covered this subject extensively in another thread some time back, I'll just touch on the highlights, since I'm getting many questions:

1. Adam named the animals:
  • [bible]Genesis 2:19[/bible]
2. But for some reason, God Himself named the stars:
  • [bible]Psalm 147:4[/bible]
3. The stars are a pictogram of the Plan of Salvation:
  • Psalm 19:1-6
4. We need to use the Hebrew names - not the Greek names.
  • e.g. Gemini = King of Kings and Lord of Lords
  • not Castor and Pollux as the Greeks portray
  • iow, they are one and the same, not two people
5. The Sun went dark on the day Jesus was crucified:
  • [bible]Matthew 27:45[/bible]
6. Looking up from the foot of the Cross, they saw the constellation Aries, which is not a Ram, but the:
  • Lamb of God - (John 1:29)
  • slain from the foundation of the world - (Revelation 13:8)
 
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AV1611VET

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should we use this as scientific proof

Only if you heed the Scientific Caveat:
  • [bible]Ecclesiastes 3:11[/bible]
There's nothing wrong with having "scientific proof", as long as you're familiar with the Bible's warnings against taking the physical universe as evidence of His existence first.
 
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AV1611VET

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lol why should i even care about the bibles warnings. Im pretty sure nobody has ever been killed from disobeying god. give me an example (with proof pls) of somone who has been smited by god.

Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10.
 
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AV1611VET

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wow....that is not proof...quoting from the bible

give me actual, real, proof of this happening.

Are you kidding? Using your logic, I can't prove WW2.
 
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AV1611VET

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Then what convinced you so strongly?

The Bible --- God's Word.

Chalnoth said:
If there is no proof, then why are you so sure it happened?

All I can say, Chalnoth, is that it's Author lives inside of me. I know that's a hard concept to grasp, but nevertheless it's true.

A person can live his life as an Atheist, or Scientist, or Stoic and learn to subordinate certain "impulses" that come along that appeal to the emotional side of himself, rather than the intellectual side.

He can get so good at that, that he can actually sit in a church service, hear a message preached, and not "feel the urge" to respond to the call to salvation (invitation).

But I guarantee you, no matter how good you get at "sorting data" in your mind and deciding whether it's scientific (and thus worthy of further scrutiny) or non-scientific (and thus worthy of dismissal), there'll come a time in your life when life itself will intervene and "short circuit" your thinking processes and force you to appeal to your emotional side for comfort (e.g. a death in the family, that certain girl, a dog, a kitty, a rare postage stamp, whatever).

The Bible has that effect, it "cuts to the heart".
  • [bible]Hebrews 4:12[/bible]
 
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Wiccan_Child

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The Bible --- God's Word.
And what convinces you of this?

All I can say, Chalnoth, is that it's Author lives inside of me. I know that's a hard concept to grasp, but nevertheless it's true.
Perhaps, but this is still not proof. Perhaps the author lies to you?

So basically, you let you instincts and animalistic urges guide you. What if you feel the urge to kill? To maim? To rape? Would you consider those a god-given invitation?
 
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AV1611VET

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You know that the Bible is true because it is the Word of God, and you know that it is the Word of God because it says so. Round and round we go...

Maybe YOU see circular logic, but I see miraculous preservation.
 
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AV1611VET

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And what convinces you of this?

Not "what" --- "Who".

Perhaps, but this is still not proof. Perhaps the author lies to you?

Pretty convincing lies then. (q.v. my response to Beastt's thread about how you can tell if God is lying or not).

So basically, you let you instincts and animalistic urges guide you.

I don't have "animalistic urges" --- in fact, there are no animals in my family tree.

What if you feel the urge to kill? To maim? To rape? Would you consider those a god-given invitation?

To maim and kill, yes. I made a pledge in 1972 to give my life for this country if I had to; and thanks to those who have made that pledge in the past, I'm not speaking German right now (or British).
 
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AV1611VET

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Aha. So this "miraculous preservation" thing, is it any different from circular logic, besides the name?

Ya --- people have died trying to eradicate it.
 
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