Discussion ...I suffer Not a woman to teach . look into the spirit of it

[Alithis]

why did paul say
I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over a man.
reason part A and part B

when we get past the initial kneejerk reaction to this topic and get past all the people crying about it. Then we get past the flesh and get into the spirit of the matter . because once in the spirit of the matter none can be offended because all have died in Christ and dead people cannot BE offend .
the carnal mindset ,the mind of the flesh is so busy reeling from what Paul says it doesn't allow itself to see way past the context of the word read from the worlds mind and into the spirit of the thing .
but we are going to look into the spirit of the thing because that's what Spirit filled and spirit led people Do. (or should )

just the plain spiritual facts .
Facts that are as simplistic as how we know whose man and whose woman .. we can tell this from certain rather obvious physical difference . once we know the fact of whose male and whose female .. we don't cry about it . we say oh ok that's the fact .. and we get on with living life
This is how we should approach this topic also .as one discovering a simple fact ,accepting that fact and moving on .
it only becomes an issue when the fact is not accepted as though there is anything one can do to change the fact and there isnt . The fact remains to varying degrees in ALL cases .
so lets get to the fact .

The reason he said it is all very simple . and it lays in the very reason the serpent did not come to the man first . in fact he avoided doing so for very good reason and the same reason remains today .
Paul was not talking about dominance he was not talking about control when he said this . he was speaking from spiritual revelation and wisdom knowing a simple fact
and this simple fact is all about who has what weakness .Because BOTH have weakness and i will Come back to that point . so here it is
part A.
The woman was and is to this very day MORE prone to spiritual deception .
the serpent knew this ,it is shown in the fact he approached the woman first in the ABSENCE of the man in order to deceive her . AND he succeeded in doing so .
part B.
Paul was NOT at all establishing any male dominance over woman . dominance was a consequence of sin not a consequence of righteousness . So forget that thinking . take a breath and let it go.
Paul was being protective of the body of Christ as a whole...
by forbidding woman to teach (foundation doctrine ) or usurp ..take illegitimate authority over man to manipulate will of man (as eve did ). (which implies coercion) .

So .. how does forbidding woman from teaching and usurping authority protect the body of Christ ?
the answer is simple and rather embarrassing to us MEN .
I just said earlier that BOTH have their Weakness . and its mans weakness that makes the problem so much worse .
fact # 1 .. woman are more prone to spiritual deception (meaning deception from a directly spiritual source )
fact #2 Men are more prone to deception via the influence of woman . same deception different source
woman weak toward deception via the spirit realm
MEN weak towards deception via -the flesh realm!
-the serpent went to the woman first because he knew he could not directly influence Adam .. but he knew the Woman had that ability .
Not about one better then the other .-just simple case in point .
and there we have the cold hard facts .

men (as we see in ADAM) are easily influenced towards deception by the opposite sex , flesh and sexuality then they are by the spiritual things .
so if woman do get led astray spirituality they are the most powerful weapon the enemy will use to lead men astray also .
Paul was simply protecting the whole body .no other motive .
and if the richest wisest king among man, being Solomon, was led into spiritual sin of worshiping false gods by the WOMAN he was weak towards in the flesh.. then think how dangerous it is .

 

[Alithis]

this shows if a woman is -usurping (manouvering manipulating ) herself into authoritative positions in the Body of Christ .... she has already been deceived .

for the way forward in God is complete Humility .
humble yourself before God and HE .not You .. HE will life you up

 

[com7fy8]

I suffer not a woman to teach nor usurp authority over a man.

Our Apostle Paul says >

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

This is according to the King James translation of 1 Timothy 2:12.

And so, of course, some number of women have told me they must not teach and preach to me. Of course, in order to tell me this, they were preaching and teaching to me!

And I get the sense that they were trying to control me and subject me to themselves and what they consider to be superior beliefs, which is what really Paul means for a woman or a man not to do.

Men, too, need to not try to use preaching and teaching to lord ourselves over anyone >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, I consider that this scripture is specializing in telling ladies what goes for all of us > we are not to teach over and take authority over anyone else, but win obedience by our example, by how God through us ministers for people to benefit from obeying Him.

Christian ladies know how well this can work, even "without a word" > 1 Peter 3:1-4 < while they are being gentle and quiet in God's love with His almighty power to reach and change any disobedient man.

And by their example, yes they are teaching and preaching the real meaning of God's word. And they have God's almighty spiritual power to overcome how men can be fools for a lady's physical appearance and wanting pleasure they can use a woman to get.

Teaching includes demonstrating. So, ladies are demonstrating how they understand God's word. They are teaching by their actions. Ones are helping their men to learn how to love, how to get real correction. This is teaching, by helping him to learn how to love, as his helper.

Our Apostle Paul and Silvanus and Timothy learned from women, how to love, how to care for children of God > 1 Thessalonians 2:7 >

"But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children."

So, even such great men as Paul and Silvanus and Timothy knew how much they needed Christian ladies to help them learn how to love. Jesus in a Christian lady gives her almighty power to help to change us guys into how God's love has us becoming in our character and how this all-loving love has us discovering how to relate as our Father's family.

 

[Sanoy]

I think that Paul is mentoring Timothy, and making a practical case to explain why he does not allow women teachers (which is covered well in the OP). But it can't be missed that he does not command it to be so, but leaves it to timothy to decide based on his mentor relationship with him. It is easy to imagine that there were gentile led churches that might have women leaders which Paul had to navigate between without creating an injunction against Gentile churches or appearimg less Jewish to his Jewish accusors who already sought to kill him.

 

[com7fy8]

why did paul say
I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over a man.

The scripture says >

"But I suffer not that a woman teach, nor usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence." (1 Timothy 2:12)

So, it says, also in this scripture, "but to be in silence."

God can be silent. And we know why this can be.

So, in case a woman needs to be silent, along with God . . . what can this mean about a man????

When a man is being foolish, it can be wise not to try to talk him where you suppose he needs to go. But help him with your example. Don't try to teach over him or get control over him. But be submissive to God so we are sharing with God and discovering how God is able to help and change a man.

What is wrong, possibly, here, that Paul is saying, is how a woman can try to get herself "over" a man, by teaching over, taking power over him, instead of trusting God and being ready for family sharing in love.

 

[mourningdove~]

fact # 1 .. woman are more prone to spiritual deception (meaning deception from a directly spiritual source )

I disagree.

There is nothing in Scripture that confirms what you believe to be 'fact'.

And, as a matter of 'fact', believers in Christ are actually told this ...

Now a concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(1 Corinthians 12:1-11)

In that passage we see that the Holy Spirit does not give more, or less, spiritual discernment to a person based on whether they are male or female.

Rather, we see that the Holy Spirit gifts individually, as He wills.

 

[mourningdove~]

fact # 1 .. woman are more prone to spiritual deception (meaning deception from a directly spiritual source )
fact #2 Men are more prone to deception via the influence of woman . same deception different source
woman weak toward deception via the spirit realm
MEN weak towards deception via -the flesh realm!

And I also disagree with your 'fact #2".

We, both male and female, are equally capable of being deceived in the flesh.

There is nothing in Scripture to confirm to us that men are weaker than women when it comes to being deceived in the fleshly realm.

Because you personally may believe it to be so, does not make it so.

God bless.

 

[Alithis]

And I also disagree with your 'fact #2".

We, both male and female, are equally capable of being deceived in the flesh.

There is nothing in Scripture to confirm to us that men are weaker than women when it comes to being deceived in the fleshly realm.

Because you personally may believe it to be so, does not make it so.

God bless.

Sure..just as men can be equally decieved from the direct source of the spiritual.
But that does not change the fact..that paul pointed out eve was decieved first.. So while i acknowkedge your point
.it does not change that woman are "more" prone to deception from a spiritual source whole men from a physical source. being woman ...

Also we observe the directional order of the spirit of it..
God is above.
The devil at the bottom .
Adam and eve in between
So lets list it vertically.

God
Adam
Eve
Serpant.

See the picture?
To get to Adam the serpant had to go through eve..

 

[Alithis]

I disagree.

There is nothing in Scripture that confirms what you believe to be 'fact'.

And, as a matter of 'fact', believers in Christ are actually told this ...

Now a concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(1 Corinthians 12:1-11)

In that passage we see that the Holy Spirit does not give more, or less, spiritual discernment to a person based on whether they are male or female.

Rather, we see that the Holy Spirit gifts individually, as He wills.

Mostly a completely different topic.
..start a thread on that.

This thread is about what paul said And the reason ..which he gave in the same text.
its not about the equality of gifts.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

If women are to remain silent, then why does Acts talk about them prophesying so much?

 

[Shaun Kennedy]

I see the whole issue is a little more complicated than just quoting one verse. I mean, yeah, if you've got a reason not to want a woman to teach, then yeah, pull ou out. But if you're trying to be faithful to the teaching of God, then you need to consider Deborah (Judges 4-5) Miriam (Moses's sister) Abigail (1 Samuel 25) Priscilla (Acts) as well as things like Titus 2:3 which specifically command the aged women to be teachers. One coupl also their in that we no longer require women to wear a veil in church or allow people to own slaves, so there's a legitimate question in, "How do we know which things are just a part of culture and which are undeniable commandments?"
I think there's a clue about how to deal with 1 Timothy 2 in verse 15. No one thinks that a woman is saved by having children or damned just because she didn't. That much said, it indicates there's more going on in this section than just what a surface reading would lead you to.
Some have argued that it's a reaction against the temple cult of Artamis or women priestess converts from the cult of Artamis. Maybe Paul is dealing with a particular small group of women usurping the duely appointed leadership in the church. I don't know. I don't feel like any of these solutions adequately deal with the problems that come up from reading verse 15. I would consider a solution that really deals with verse 15 the strongest explanation of the section.

 

[Alithis]

I see the whole issue is a little more complicated than just quoting one verse. I mean, yeah, if you've got a reason not to want a woman to teach, then yeah, pull ou out. But if you're trying to be faithful to the teaching of God, then you need to consider Deborah (Judges 4-5) Miriam (Moses's sister) Abigail (1 Samuel 25) Priscilla (Acts) as well as things like Titus 2:3 which specifically command the aged women to be teachers. One coupl also their in that we no longer require women to wear a veil in church or allow people to own slaves, so there's a legitimate question in, "How do we know which things are just a part of culture and which are undeniable commandments?"
I think there's a clue about how to deal with 1 Timothy 2 in verse 15. No one thinks that a woman is saved by having children or damned just because she didn't. That much said, it indicates there's more going on in this section than just what a surface reading would lead you to.
Some have argued that it's a reaction against the temple cult of Artamis or women priestess converts from the cult of Artamis. Maybe Paul is dealing with a particular small group of women usurping the duely appointed leadership in the church. I don't know. I don't feel like any of these solutions adequately deal with the problems that come up from reading verse 15. I would consider a solution that really deals with verse 15 the strongest explanation of the section.

To be honest
Youve totally missed the point and the spirit of it so far

 

[Alithis]

If women are to remain silent, then why does Acts talk about them prophesying so much?

paul explains why he has that stance.and its not what people seem to go to first.
Hes not talking about the flesh
Its a just a fact of spiritual state .

You'll not people bring up old testiment woman etc
But judges passed on judgments according to the written law.
They did not formulate the foundations of that law.

 

[Shaun Kennedy]

To be honest
Youve totally missed the point and the spirit of it so far

Can you elaborate, then?

 

[Strong in Him]

The reason he said it is all very simple . and it lays in the very reason the serpent did not come to the man first . in fact he avoided doing so for very good reason and the same reason remains today .
Paul was not talking about dominance he was not talking about control when he said this . he was speaking from spiritual revelation and wisdom knowing a simple fact
and this simple fact is all about who has what weakness .Because BOTH have weakness and i will Come back to that point . so here it is
part A.
The woman was and is to this very day MORE prone to spiritual deception .

No.
Men and women were both created by God, in his image, Genesis 1:26-27.
God declared hiscreation to be very good, Genesis 1:31.
When the perfect Creator declares his creation to be very good, we can believe that it was. Or are you saying that he deliberately made women weaker, more able to be deceived and therefore imperfect?

why did paul say
the serpent knew this ,it is shown in the fact he approached the woman first in the ABSENCE of the man in order to deceive her .

The serpent probably knew that God had not given the woman a direct command as he had Adam, Genesis 2:16-17. Eve hadn't been created at that point, and we are not told that God spoke to her directly. That being the case, she would only have known about God's command from Adam.
The serpent said to her, "DID God say ....?" and she repeated what she had heard, or knew. But she got it wrong; she added something that God had not said. This suggests to me that she had not been listening when Adam - or possibly God but we don't know that - spoke to her; maybe she was talking to an animal, or something. That is speculation, but it does fit very well with 1 Timothy 2:11 which says that a woman should learn in silence. If someone is talking while someone else is trying to teach the, they will not hear very much or be able to earn.
After the woman ate the fruit, she gave some to her husband who was with her, Genesis 2:6-7. He could have said, at that point, "No! God commanded me not to eat this fruit". He could have said, "you are wrong because you have disobeyed God; I'm not going to do that". He didn't. He voluntarily ate the fruit; he was not force fed it.

Paul was being protective of the body of Christ as a whole...
by forbidding woman to teach (foundation doctrine ) or usurp ..take illegitimate authority over man to manipulate will of man (as eve did ). (which implies coercion) .

Eve did not manipulate Adam.
He was with her when she ate, she gave him some and he ate it too.
Maybe he was reasoning that as Eve hadn't died (literally), then God got it wrong; maybe he was asking himself if he had misheard or it wasn't God who spoke to him. We don't know. All we DO know is that Eve passed the fruit to him and he ate. He wasn't force fed, the fruit wasn't hidden behind a leaf so he thought he was eating something else - he ate the fruit.

So .. how does forbidding woman from teaching and usurping authority protect the body of Christ ?

It doesn't, because the body of Christ doesn't need to be "protected" from women preaching God's word.
Just as the priests who chose to consult the prophetess Huldah did not need to be protected - they deliberately went to her for a word from God rather than the male prophets.
Barak did not need to be protected from Deborah.
The disciples did not need to be protected from Mary Magdalene telling them that Jesus was alive.

And no one has ever yet explained why a woman who proclaims God's word, just as they did in Scripture, is usurping - or snatching by force - authority from men.

fact # 1 .. woman are more prone to spiritual deception (meaning deception from a directly spiritual source )

You haven't proved that that is a fact.

fact #2 Men are more prone to deception via the influence of woman .

You haven't proved this to be a fact either.
If men are more prone to deception via the influence of women, how can we trust the men of the OT, and Jesus, who were brought up and taught by their mothers?

-the serpent went to the woman first because he knew he could not directly influence Adam ..

Exactly.
If the serpent had said "DID God say ......?" to Adam, Adam would have said "yes".
He went to Eve first because Eve had not heard directly from God - fact - and it was therefore easier to plant doubt in her mind.

Not about one better then the other .-just simple case in point .
and there we have the cold hard facts .

Sorry, but you're ignoring some of the facts and interpreting others to show something else.

men (as we see in ADAM) are easily influenced towards deception by the opposite sex , flesh and sexuality then they are by the spiritual things .

That's a big generalisation and rather unfair on men.
I'm sure women can be led astray by men just as much as men can by women, and give in to lust rather than keep their minds on God.
Sex has become corrupted just like everything else has. People give in to their desires to sleep together before marriage, rather than obeying God's word. They may use sex to gain power, (sleeping with the boss) or as seduction - persuade someone that you are in a relationship with them to get them to do what you want/get information from them. Women are capable of this just as much as men are, (sadly).

so if woman do get led astray spirituality they are the most powerful weapon the enemy will use to lead men astray also .

Yet Mary Magdalen, who had had 7 demons driven out of her, was CHOSEN by Jesus to be the first witness of the resurrection and to tell the disciples.
Men can be led astray by other men - look at the leaders of the JWs and Moonies cults; they were men. In fact the only female cult leader I can think of is Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientists - and most of her ideas were taught by men.

Paul was simply protecting the whole body .no other motive .

Paul was simply teaching that church, and saying that women were not to talk in the meetings, ask questions or interrupt while the speaker was teaching - no other motive.
Priscilla taught Apollos, and Paul had female co-workers who he commended in their work for the Gospel. He gave his letter to the Romans to a woman to deliver, and had deaconesses in his churches.

and if the richest wisest king among man, being Solomon, was led into spiritual sin of worshiping false gods by the WOMAN he was weak towards in the flesh

Solomon had many, many wives and concubines.
He chose to marry foreign women who worshipped other gods. This was against God's command - Israelites were told not to marry outside of Israel, else their religion would be contaminated by others who worshipped false gods. This is what happened with Solomon - and also with Ahab, who married Jezebel who worshipped Baal.

then think how dangerous it is .

Disobeying God and doing something he has not commanded, is dangerous - for men and women.
Putting the world, the flesh and the devil before God and listening to them rather than him, is dangerous.
Listening to God when he calls you to preach the Gospel is not dangerous and churches do not need to be "protected" from women who do so. After all, if God really were against it, he would not call them to do this/would have them fail the training/would prompt the church to reject their ministry.
Or are you saying that women nowadays manage to deceive male clergy, bishops and theologians and "bewitch" them into ordaining them, or allowing them to preach?

 

[Strong in Him]

this shows if a woman is -usurping (manouvering manipulating ) herself into authoritative positions in the Body of Christ .... she has already been deceived

I don't know of any Christian women who manipulate themselves into positions of leadership. I know of plenty who have been called by God to preach/be ordained and have either ignored that call, argued with God or asked if they could do something else.
When they HAVE submitted to God and trained to preach and/or been ordained, then he blesses their ministry.

 

[Strong in Him]

See the picture?
To get to Adam the serpant had to go through eve..

So the serpent (devil) was so ineffectual that he could ONLY get to man by going through a woman?
No.

If it is the case that the devil can only tempt men through women, why did he bother trying to tempt Jesus in the wilderness? It was a waste of time - he should have dragged a woman in to make it harder for Jesus to resist.

 

[Alithis]

The entire argument in opposition to pauls clear reason he gives.. (Because the woman was decieved first) is in defense of what?

Its wiser to Care more for the Body of the lord .rather then miss the point and waste time in defensivness.

 

[Strong in Him]

The entire argument in opposition to pauls clear reason he gives.. (Because the woman was decieved first) is in defense of what?

Eve was deceived - I'm not disputing that; it's clear from Scripture.
Why was she able to be deceived, or tricked? Because she didn't KNOW what God had said.
This also fits in with 1 Timothy 2:11 "LET women learn .." they were not allowed to in that society. If women KNOW the truth, they will be unlikely to be deceived - applies to anyone really.

Its wiser to Care more for the Body of the lord .rather then miss the point and waste time in defensivness.

If that's addressed to me, maybe you could answer some of the points I have made, and questions I have asked.
Or maybe you can't - so it's easier to dismiss it as defensiveness than to admit that you have made a mistake.

 

[Alithis]

But it can't be missed that he does not command it to be so,

Yes ..good point ,i noticed that also.
How he says "I" do not allow... but does not impose a rule.
But then all the letters are inspired godly advise .no where are they writing a new law book. Though the way some present it you'd think they were.