I struggle with...

Aman777 · Jun 3, 2017

Astrophile said: ↑
Can you demonstrate how creation explains the observed facts of biology as well as the theory of evolution?

TLK Valentine said:
I do believe the question asked for a demonstration, not assertions...

Sure. Adam was first made on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4-7 with a mind like God's. Gen 3:22
Adam's descendants married prehistoric people and produced hybrid Humans with a mind like God's AND the DNA of prehistoric people. Gen 6:4
This explains WHY we find the DNA of prehistoric people AND the superior intelligence of Adam inside the 7.4 Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) alive today.

The above information completely REFUTES (proves wrong) the incomplete and false ideas of the godless ToE which CANNOT explain how Humans got their superior intelligence to any other living creature, from mindless nature. God Bless you

Aman777 · Jun 3, 2017

[Staff edit].

I should say that I enjoy destroying the unsupportable ideas of the False Theory of Evolution. It brings Sonlight to the dark thinking of some. God Bless you

Aman777 · Jun 3, 2017

[Staff edit].

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

mark kennedy · Jun 3, 2017

[Staff edit].

Here is another reading comprehension problem that requires only basic math:

Genetic differences that have accumulated since the human and chimpanzee species diverged from our common ancestor, constituting approximately thirty-five million single-nucleotide changes, five million insertion/deletion events,

Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23%
we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb
the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb.

This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions (Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome, Nature 2005)

That was post #242, in the Dover Trial thread. There is a reason they don't want to answer the question.

Speedwell · Jun 3, 2017

mark kennedy said:
There is a reason they don't want to answer the question.

What is it?

mark kennedy · Jun 3, 2017

Speedwell said:
What is it?

The question is what is 1.23% plus 3%, this isn't a trick question, it's not between 1% and 2% it's 4.23%. That's not my opinion, that's not my interpretation, that's exactly what the Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome paper, that they specifically cite, actually says:

Genetic differences that have accumulated since the human and chimpanzee species diverged from our common ancestor, constituting approximately thirty-five million single-nucleotide changes, five million insertion/deletion events,

Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23%
we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb
the indel differences between the genomes thus total ~90 Mb.

This difference corresponds to ~3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions (Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome, Nature 2005)

That is their cited source material, the comparison is base pairs, NOT NUMBER OF EVENTS. The number of events does not change the percentage, it's explicitly stated in the paper. No Creationist would get away with such an obvious misstatement, accidental, intentional or otherwise. Not one single evolutionist has conceded this point and I have seen the argument made and have seen it made in this thread.

There is nothing complicated about this, it's as simple as 3 plus 1.23, there is no way it's between 1 and 2 percent.

Did Talk Origins get the math right here?

The difference between chimpanzees and humans due to single-nucleotide substitutions averages 1.23 percent, of which 1.06 percent or less is due to fixed divergence, and the rest being a result of polymorphism within chimp populations and within human populations. Insertion and deletion (indel) events account for another approximately 3 percent difference between chimp and human sequences, but each indel typically involves multiple nucleotides. The number of genetic changes from indels is a fraction of the number of single-nucleotide substitutions (roughly 5 million compared with roughly 35 million). So describing humans and chimpanzees as 98 to 99 percent identical is entirely appropriate (Chimpanzee Sequencing 2005). (Talk Origins, Claim CB144)

Yes or no.

mark kennedy · Jun 3, 2017

[Staff edit].

Barry Desborough said:
...trying to understand the creationist mentality. I've been struggling with this for years. Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?

I'm a Creationist because Darwinians refuse to acknowledge clearly evident and obvious facts regarding genomic comparisons. I have other reasons, but this one is pretty obvious considering they don't want to admit the obvious.

Aman777 · Jun 3, 2017

mark kennedy said:
I'm a Creationist because Darwinians refuse to acknowledge clearly evident and obvious facts regarding genomic comparisons. I have other reasons, but this one is pretty obvious considering they don't want to admit the obvious.

Amen, but we did not diverge from Chimps nor any other living creature since Adam was made long BEFORE plants, herbs and trees according to Gen 2:4-7. Darwinians continue the mistaken view that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes because they don't believe God's story of the flood. They are willingly ignorant that Adam was made FIRST and could NOT have evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, but Humans will have dominion or rule over them after Jesus returns. Gen 1:28

We inherited the DNA of prehistoric people (sons of God, which are THEIR kind) and the superior intelligence of Adam, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 from Noah's grandsons, who had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam), to marry. (Humans are HIS kinds) or the kinds which Lord God/Jesus made with His own Hands. Today, there are some 7.4 Billion hybrid Humans alive on planet Earth. Human blood was contaminated with the blood of innocent prehistoric creatures who were NOT descendants of Adam. They were already here when the Ark arrived. God calls them the sons of God and calls born again Christians the SAME after they are born Spiritually. It's because Christians are as INNOCENT as prehistoric people. Amen?

mark kennedy · Jun 4, 2017

Aman777 said:
Amen, but we did not diverge from Chimps nor any other living creature since Adam was made long BEFORE plants, herbs and trees according to Gen 2:4-7. Darwinians continue the mistaken view that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes because they don't believe God's story of the flood. They are willingly ignorant that Adam was made FIRST and could NOT have evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, but Humans will have dominion or rule over them after Jesus returns. Gen 1:28

While I agree that Adam didn't have ape ancestry, Adam was clearly created on the sixth day.

We inherited the DNA of prehistoric people (sons of God, which are THEIR kind) and the superior intelligence of Adam, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 from Noah's grandsons, who had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam), to marry. (Humans are HIS kinds) or the kinds which Lord God/Jesus made with His own Hands. Today, there are some 7.4 Billion hybrid Humans alive on planet Earth. Human blood was contaminated with the blood of innocent prehistoric creatures who were NOT descendants of Adam. They were already here when the Ark arrived. God calls them the sons of God and calls born again Christians the SAME after they are born Spiritually. It's because Christians are as INNOCENT as prehistoric people. Amen?

You completely lost me here.

Aman777 · Jun 4, 2017

mark kennedy said:
While I agree that Adam didn't have ape ancestry, Adam was clearly created on the sixth day.

Amen...but Adam was formed of the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants, herbs and rain. Gen 2:4-7 To be created in God's Image is to be made alive ETERNALLY in Christ by the agreement of the Trinity. Gen 1:26 and John 14:16

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

*** You completely lost me here.

Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry after the Ark arrived. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced "mighty men" on both Adam's Earth Gen 6:4 and the present Earth,Gen 10:8 with the sons of God (prehistoric people) who had been on our Earth for Millions of years when the Ark arrived. They were NOT Humans, which are His kinds, but instead, are Their kinds, made from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 Science has incorrectly classified these people as Humans, who MUST descend from Adam or they are NOT Humans.

That is WHY today's Humans have the DNA of prehistoric people AND the superior intelligence which MUST be inherited from Adam, who was "formed" from the dust with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22 It's the difference between Human and animal intelligence. God Bless you

mark kennedy · Jun 4, 2017

Aman777 said:
Amen...but Adam was formed of the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants, herbs and rain. Gen 2:4-7 To be created in God's Image is to be made alive ETERNALLY in Christ by the agreement of the Trinity. Gen 1:26 and John 14:16

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

*** You completely lost me here.

Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry after the Ark arrived. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced "mighty men" on both Adam's Earth Gen 6:4 and the present Earth,Gen 10:8 with the sons of God (prehistoric people) who had been on our Earth for Millions of years when the Ark arrived. They were NOT Humans, which are His kinds, but instead, are Their kinds, made from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 Science has incorrectly classified these people as Humans, who MUST descend from Adam or they are NOT Humans.

That is WHY today's Humans have the DNA of prehistoric people AND the superior intelligence which MUST be inherited from Adam, who was "formed" from the dust with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22 It's the difference between Human and animal intelligence. God Bless you

Adam was created on the sixth day

Aman777 · Jun 4, 2017

mark kennedy said:
Adam was created on the sixth day

Correction: Adam was created Spiritually by God the Trinity on the 6th Day. God the Trinity ALWAYS creates Eternally. Lord God (Jesus) creations are ALWAYS temporal. Lord God made Adam Gen 2:7 so in order to be created Eternally, Adam had to be born again Spiritually. Adam was born again Spiritually by the Trinity AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 on the present 6th Day, the Day of Salvation. 2Co 6:2

mark kennedy · Jun 4, 2017

Aman777 said:
Correction: Adam was created Spiritually by God the Trinity on the 6th Day. God the Trinity ALWAYS creates Eternally. Lord God (Jesus) creations are ALWAYS temporal. Lord God made Adam Gen 2:7 so in order to be created Eternally, Adam had to be born again Spiritually. Adam was born again Spiritually by the Trinity AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 on the present 6th Day, the Day of Salvation. 2Co 6:2

Adam was created on the sixth day, whether or not he was born again we simply don't know.

Jimmy D · Jun 5, 2017

razzelflabben said:
two things....1. that is why I presented a list of modern day scientists who are creationists, which testifies to the fact that it is not against the scientific evidence nor method to be a creationist and

Great, and what percentage of the world's scientists (working in the relevant fields) do you think your list amounts to? A fraction of 1%?

People believe all sorts of things, I wonder how much research those scientists have done to further their ideas, it's not enough to write anti-evolution articles for creation websites, that demonstrates nothing. They need to produce verifiable results to explain the data we see, until they do their opinions remain only that. Have any of them presented any empirical evidence of "creation"?

razzelflabben said:
2. Do you really think ancient people did not observe the world around them?

Of course I don't. It was a response to your idea that I accept evolution because I was taught about it, I'm suggesting that as the scientific method developed and we became more curious about the natural world, ancient religious explanations were shown to be inadequate. - we had to develop new ideas to explain more detailed observations. It's not a point I particularly want to labour anyway.

razzelflabben said:
let's throw in a third, shall we? 3. I personally hate the "God of the gaps" theory and if you try to twist what I am saying into that argument we will have strong words since you have been clearly warned.

I've got no intention of doing that.

razzelflabben said:
But as I explained in great detail, many many christians and the number is growing accept that science and the bible are not only tolerant of each other but are actually confirmed by each other.

1. Of course they do, no one thinks Christians are stupid, I've never met a YEC for example in real life. None of the christians I know reject modern scientific thinking.

2. How do they confirm each other, can you give any examples?

razzelflabben said:
Let's take the flood for example since it was already brought up and talked about you can review the discussion....scripture does NOT specify that it was global or massive local.

So, just to be clear, you don't believe in a global flood?

razzelflabben said:
it does specify that all flesh was destroyed so if we look at the claim we can hypothesis that we should see a bottle neck in the genetic record, right? right! And when we take that hypothesis to the scientific method what do we find? A bottleneck just like we would expect.

Have you got any evidence of this? When did this bottleneck occur exactly?

razzelflabben said:
When we take what the account says without adding to it or taking from it, the evidence lines up which is the problem with dismissing all forms of creation belief, because scientifically it can't be done at this time

No one here is dismissing "all forms of creationism". Perhaps if you gave a specific account of what you actually believed we could discuss it but you seem reluctant to do that.

Armoured · Jun 5, 2017

mark kennedy said:
I'm a Creationist because Darwinians refuse to acknowledge clearly evident and obvious facts regarding genomic comparisons. I have other reasons, but this one is pretty obvious considering they don't want to admit the obvious.

...such as...?

Not that falsifying "Darwinism" in any way confirms Creationism, but anyhoo...

Jimmy D · Jun 5, 2017

Armoured said:
..such as...?

noooooooooooooooooooo!

Gene Parmesan · Jun 5, 2017

We've got two adult Christians disagreeing on something basic like the day Adam was created and another telling us that Genesis can be as easily understood by children as Judy Blume.

razzelflabben · Jun 5, 2017

Aman777 said:
Correction: Adam was created Spiritually by God the Trinity on the 6th Day. God the Trinity ALWAYS creates Eternally. Lord God (Jesus) creations are ALWAYS temporal. Lord God made Adam Gen 2:7 so in order to be created Eternally, Adam had to be born again Spiritually. Adam was born again Spiritually by the Trinity AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 on the present 6th Day, the Day of Salvation. 2Co 6:2

this shows the importance of being able to read for comprehension before trying to add all kinds of stuff that scripture doesn't say.

Aman777 · Jun 5, 2017

razzelflabben said:
this shows the importance of being able to read for comprehension before trying to add all kinds of stuff that scripture doesn't say.

Not so since God tells us in Genesis chapter one of the differences between His (Jesus) kinds and Their (Trinity) kinds. What is obvious is that you have ignored Gen 1:25 and seem to prefer confusion to understanding. God Bless you

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after HIS kind, and cattle after THEIR kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after HIS kind: and God saw that it was good.

razzelflabben · Jun 5, 2017

Aman777 said:
Not so since God tells us in Genesis chapter one of the differences between His (Jesus) kinds and Their (Trinity) kinds. What is obvious is that you have ignored Gen 1:25 and seem to prefer confusion to understanding. God Bless you

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after HIS kind, and cattle after THEIR kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after HIS kind: and God saw that it was good.

please show using the common literary rules for comprehension that you were taught in elementary school to get the meaning you want us to believe from Gen. 1:25...based on the common literary rules I have myself taught to elementary school students, you are reading into the text what is not there...at this point, no discussion if you are right or wrong in your interpretation only what does reading for comprehension tell us...adding in things later we can talk about later.

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