"I shall lose nothing"-John 6:39

[Patristic]

"the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... "

Just because Scripture uses inclusive language with an implied restrictive meaning does not mean you can force that idea upon the entire Bible. Saying all of Jerusalem or all of Judea is a common expression that we still use today. Akin to saying all of my friends went with me. It could very well be that they did, but more likely I am using such language in a hyperbolic sense to illustrate the point that many of my friends were with me. Furthermore, when the Scripture states the whole world, olos kosmos, it most definitely means the entire world. That is the common sense rendering of the Greek and to read it any other way requires a strong contextual and linguistical argument. Furthermore, your insistence that all really means all types is more a hermeneutical demand of your theology than an implicit meaning easily discernable from the text.

 

[Ainesis]

In John 6, Jesus was addressing their disbelief, so He tells them of election (37-40) and then tells them that about drawing, to express the meaning that if they were drawn, they would have believed.

I agree with your assessment of the word "all" in that it does not always mean every single individual, although at times it does indeed mean that. However, John cahpetr 6 does not say that if they were drawn they would believe. If you believe it does, can you show where?

 

[Bulldog]

I agree with your assessment of the word "all" in that it does not always mean every single individual, although at times it does indeed mean that. However, John cahpetr 6 does not say that if they were drawn they would believe. If you believe it does, can you show where?

Hi Ainses,


Christ is addresing thier unbelief:

Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?





Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Christ also reiterates this point in verse 65:

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Bulldog]

Hi Patristic,

Just because Scripture uses inclusive language with an implied restrictive meaning does not mean you can force that idea upon the entire Bible. Saying all of Jerusalem or all of Judea is a common expression that we still use today. Akin to saying all of my friends went with me. It could very well be that they did, but more likely I am using such language in a hyperbolic sense to illustrate the point that many of my friends were with me. Furthermore, when the Scripture states the whole world, olos kosmos, it most definitely means the entire world. That is the common sense rendering of the Greek and to read it any other way requires a strong contextual and linguistical argument. Furthermore, your insistence that all really means all types is more a hermeneutical demand of your theology than an implicit meaning easily discernable from the text.

That was Strong;s note, not mine, so you'll have to bring your objectiion to them

Do you believe every time pas is used it means "all individually"?

 

[Ainesis]

Hi Bulldog,

Hi Ainses,
Christ is addresing thier unbelief:

Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Yes, they asked for a sign proving that He was sent from God so that they would believe. They use the previous sign of God sending bread from Heaven through Moses as an example of the type of sign they sought.

And Jesus obliged them. He gave them evidence of that sign, which was that He was sent as the living bread from Heaven.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That does not say that all who the Father draws believes. It says the only way we can come is if the Father draws us.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Okay. Bu that still doesn't say all who the Father draws will believe. The Scriptures do say that all who the Father gives will be saved. But it does not appear to say all who are drawn will believe.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Okay, this is something I thought was interesting in this text. No man can come except "it were given" by the Father.

What do you think that "it were given" refers to? It couldn't be belief because wouldn't it say "except it was given." What do you think?

 

[Bulldog]

Hi Bulldog,


Yes, they asked for a sign proving that He was sent from God so that they would believe. They use the previous sign of God sending bread from Heaven through Moses as an example of the type of sign they sought.

And Jesus obliged them. He gave them evidence of that sign, which was that He was sent as the living bread from Heaven.


That does not say that all who the Father draws believes. It says the only way we can come is if the Father draws us.

It is your contention that he "him"'s are two different people in verse 44?

Okay. Bu that still doesn't say all who the Father draws will believe. The Scriptures do say that all who the Father gives will be saved. But it does not appear to say all who are drawn will believe.

All who are taught by the Father come to Christ. In context taught is "drawing". The clear meaning is that all who are drawn come.

Okay, this is something I thought was interesting in this text. No man can come except "it were given" by the Father.

What do you think that "it were given" refers to? It couldn't be belief because wouldn't it say "except it was given." What do you think?

I would think "it" would be referring to coming.

 

[Patristic]

Hi Patristic,




That was Strong;s note, not mine, so you'll have to bring your objectiion to them

Do you believe every time pas is used it means "all individually"?

I know it's Strong's rule and I believe Strong's conclusions have been proven inadequate thanks to more modern research and scholarship, but that is another issue altogether. Of course every time pas is used it does not mean all individually, I never argued that it did. My argument was that context and overall meaning must be taken into account to arrive at a particular meaning for a passage.

 

[Ainesis]

Hi Bulldog,

It is your contention that he "him"'s are two different people in verse 44?

No. Look at the following:

• Everyone I speak to comes to the party
• Only those I speak to can come to the party

These two statements do not mean the same thing. John 6:44 is structured as the second statement, not the first.

God does not say that all those He draws will come. He says only those who are drawn can come.

All who are taught by the Father come to Christ. In context taught is "drawing". The clear meaning is that all who are drawn come.

Okay. So you equate God's "drawing" as being the samething as being "taught by God"? I think I see what you are saying. I hadn't thought of it in that way before.

Yet, even if that is the case, it doesn't say that all who are taught are those who come. It says that fater being taught, the man must hear and learn before he can come. That still leaves open the possibility that some are taught, but do not hear and learn, and as a result do not come.

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

See what I mean?

I would think "it" would be referring to coming.

Thanks! I'll study that further.

 

[Bulldog]

Hi Bulldog,

No. Look at the following:

• Everyone I speak to comes to the party
• Only those I speak to can come to the party

These two statements do not mean the same thing. John 6:44 is structured as the second statement, not the first.

God does not say that all those He draws will come. He says only those who are drawn can come.

This is how I see it.

• "him" is drawn
• "him" is raised up the last day.

Okay. So you equate God's "drawing" as being the samething as being "taught by God"? I think I see what you are saying. I hadn't thought of it in that way before.

[/QUOTE]

I believe that in context Jesus is referring to drawing by His statemetn.

Yet, even if that is the case, it doesn't say that all who are taught are those who come. It says that fater being taught, the man must hear and learn before he can come. That still leaves open the possibility that some are taught, but do not hear and learn, and as a result do not come.

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

See what I mean?

No I don't.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Every man that learns (by teaching from God) comes to Christ. That is the simple meaning of the passage.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

As I follow along I am adding my own thoughts so that if any differ from yours you can correct them.

Okay. I also think they were specifically looking for the power to do miracles. They had seen the miracle performed by Jesus and according to Him they were following Him for that reason. When He calls them on this, they ask what they can do to be able to do these works also. I think Jesus' comments were to get them to see that the goal with God was not doing miracles but believing on Him. That is what they should have been seeking, faith in Christ and not simply the power to work miracles.

Also, I am not so sure about the phrase "Work of God" here. It seems you take it to mean that this is a work done by God. I was thinking it meant that this is a Godly work. They wanted to do Godly works (i.e. working miracles) but Jesus tells them that the Godly work is to believe


One Scripture that comes to mind is Philippians 1:29, which seems to support what you are saying "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake".?

Good Day, Ainses

Thank you for your reply. I am usure of the reason they followed him, if I have missed this in the text please point it out to me. This much I do know these people were in tent on following him, a days boat ride. Work of God vs. Godly work, if the intent of the work was Godly then that Adj. would be used to desribe the work. Where as work of God would mean God does the work. I see what you are saying here, but I do not see it the way you do as the form here is not in an Adj.

Yes. When Jesus urged them towards faith in Him instead of miracle working power, they asked Him for a sign so that they may believe. Jesus answers their question and tells them the sign: He is the bread of life sent by the Father from Heaven to give life to the world. The fact that God had sent Him was the sign that they should believe on Him.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.


Did they not ask for the bread which comes down from heaven?

The people had asked for a sign that they may believe. Jesus shows them the sign, He is the bread of life sent from heaven. Yet, they did not recognize the sign He gave them and therefore they did not believe. Even though they were looking at the sign, they still did not believe..

This is the a issue, here IMO. You believe and yet you never saw. Juses taught them the differentance between the Bread of heaven, vs the bread their father had eaten. Based on this previous teaching they understood the diffence to such an extent that they asked for that Bread, yet they where not given it because they did not believe, what didn't they believe, what belief were they lacking? Verse 37 said that those given of the Father "come".

I agree with everything but the last part (i.e. work of God part). If your understanding is correct, then belief being a work done by God is correct. If not, then it could mean that belief is a Godly work.

I would also say this. Jesus states that God's will is for every one who sees Jesus to believe on Him so that they may have eternal life. However, these people could see Jesus, and still did not believe...

Would you plese show me this in Jn 6.

..

I am not so sure. This Scripture does not say that these men were not drawn by the Father. Jesus says that the Father must draw first, before a man can come. All we know is that these men did not come to Jesus. That could be because they were not drawn, or it could be because they were drawn and did not come.

It is an assumption to say that the reason they didn't come is because they were not drawn, because the Scripture does not say that all men who are drawn will come...

You do know only those who are drawn can come "your words". we do know those who are drawn by the Father Jesus will raise.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So, the question now is the Father Draws, Jesus raises, but they never come? If no man can come with out the drawing of the Father, the Father draws and fails to get a man to come and the Jesus "will" raise them up?


...

For one, Scripture does not say that all who are drawn will come. It says one must be drawn before one can come. Those are 2 different statements.

Second, this cannot complete the will of the Father because Jesus says in verse 40 that the Father's will is for every one who sees Jesus to believe on Him and have eternal life, which would include those who were with Jesus at that time. That is the will of the Father. So you are saying that the Father's will is that He will cause people to believe, draw them and give them to Christ, therefore completing His will. But Jesus says that the Father's will is for every one to believe.

Third, John 12:32 says "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." No one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn to Him, and Jesus says that He will draw all men unto Himself in His crucifixion. So, if we assume that the drawing is a work of God the way you use it, that would mean that all men would come to Jesus (since they are drawn) and be saved.

What are your thoughts?

Most of this I addressed Back in this post, The Fathers will is that Those he Gives will be raised up in the last day and come un to the son. Where JN 6 did "Jesus says that the Father's will is for every one to believe."

JN 12:32, Seeing Jn 6 comes before Jn 12 and the same word is used "Draw" now in Jn 6 Jesus said the Father Draws by teaching, in Jn 12 Jesus says he Draws by being lifted up, kind of different don't ya think?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

I don't think that text says all are drawn. So my answer would be "No."

Good Day, Ainesis

Cannot understand here:

I agree that the verse does not deny that all are drawn.

Help please these seem to confilct.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Ainesis]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your reply. I am usure of the reason they followed him, if I have missed this in the text please point it out to me. This much I do know these people were in tent on following him, a days boat ride. Work of God vs. Godly work, if the intent of the work was Godly then that Adj. would be used to desribe the work. Where as work of God would mean God does the work. I see what you are saying here, but I do not see it the way you do as the form here is not in an Adj.

I didn't mean to imply that you were seeing it wrong. That is why i also noted the Scripture which supports your perspective. I was just saying that I had seen a different (and perhaps incorrect) perspective on it.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Did they not ask for the bread which comes down from heaven?

Yes they did.

This is the a issue, here IMO. You believe and yet you never saw. Juses taught them the differentance between the Bread of heaven, vs the bread their father had eaten. Based on this previous teaching they understood the diffence to such an extent that they asked for that Bread, yet they where not given it because they did not believe, what didn't they believe, what belief were they lacking? Verse 37 said that those given of the Father "come".

Yes, I see what you are saying. Please forgive me from underlining the portion of your comments above, but I think that is key.

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. " John 6:35-37

There also seems to be a sequence of events here. When asking for this bread, Jesus doesn't straight off tell them that they were not given by the Father. He blames their unbelief.

The sequence here seems to imply "If you believed, the Father would give you to me, you would come to me, and I would not cast you out." But since they didn't believe, the Father could not give them to Jesus, and therefore they would not come to Him. So as you state above, they were not given this bread of life because they did not believe. It seems we are saying the same thing here. Would you agree?

Would you plese show me this in Jn 6.

I cannot because I misreferenced Scripture here. I was referring to verse 40 which states "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I missed the "and" between seeing and believing and therefore got a wrong understanding of what was being said. Thank you for pointing that out for me.

You do know only those who are drawn can come "your words".

Absolutely. Only those who are drawn can come.

we do know those who are drawn by the Father Jesus will raise. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Scripture does not say though that those who are drawn Jesus will raise. It says those who come after having been drawn will be raised.

Also, look at verse 45 which states "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Again, there is a sequence of events here in verse 44-45. Assuming "they" refers to those who are drawn, the actions according to this Scripture are:

God draws
Man is taught of God
Man hears
Man learns
Man comes to Jesus

There are 2 steps in between God's drawing and the man coming, namely "hearing" and "learning." It is not those who are drawn who are raised, even with these assumptions. But only those who are drawn, who hear, who learn, and who come.

So, I don't think Scripture says that all who are drawn will come. It would be Scriptural (based on verse 45) to say that those who have heard and learned of God will come.

JN 12:32, Seeing Jn 6 comes before Jn 12 and the same word is used "Draw" now in Jn 6 Jesus said the Father Draws by teaching, in Jn 12 Jesus says he Draws by being lifted up, kind of different don't ya think?

Not really. First, I don't know that the way God draws is by teaching. This is not what Jesus says, this is what you take the verses to mean. It seems to me that teaching is the next step after the drawing, not the way man is drawn.

Thanks!

 

[Ainesis]

Good Day, Ainesis

Cannot understand here:

[/font]

Help please these seem to confilct.

Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill,

John 6:44 does not say that all men are drawn. I happen to believe that they are (John 12:32), but this particular verse does not say that.

Neither does John 6:44 say that only some are drawn. So it cannot be used to dispute an assertion that all may be drawn.

This verse is speaking primarily about those who come to Jesus. It describes those who come to Jesus as having to be drawn first. That does not mean that no others are drawn. However, it doesn't say enough in this particular verse to prove whether or not others are drawn.