I reject the creeds

JacktheCatholic · Dec 31, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Just so I dont have ta smell ya'll after one of your confrontations.

What do ya mean???

We stink?

LOL

JacktheCatholic · Dec 31, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
no. They do not. Their rejection or acceptance of CREEDS have absolutely nothing to do with the Judgement of God.

So you say...

But the argument still stands that scripture is not necessarily needed as well.

Uphill Battle · Dec 31, 2008

HandmaidenOfGod said:
If you do ever want to discuss it, feel free to roam over to St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian part of TAW and start a thread. We'll be happy to help!

I might... but I've been down that road before, and it wasn't productive.

sunlover1 said:
If you noticed earlier in the thread, I agree with UB.
He's saying that while he is in agreement with the content
of the creed(s), he doesnt feel anyone should have to
recite such like some sort of club.

But I may have erred in interpreting what he said.

Yeah, it IS a cool song.

partly, yes.

there's more than one thought about it rattling around in my hollow skull.

1) that "adherence" to a specific FORMAL creed, has zero to do with being a Christian. It has more to do with membership in whatever denomination that makes it a cornerstone of "being like us."

2) that acknowledging the creed in and of itself is of no specific benefit. For instance, you could say "I believe that lime jello tastes great." But if you don't eat the jello, it's nothing more than empty words.

3) that Christians shouldn't use such a litmus test, as it was called, as an appropriate method for exclusion or inclusion. Frankly, the church was never meant to be a place where "you can be here if you are doctrinally correct in everything (at least, what WE say... depending on the denom again.)

4) the Creeds in and of themselves may or may not contain completely accurate information, for instance, I agree with the statements of the Nicene creed at face value. But other than it being a compiliation of some beliefs, it has no REAL value. the scriptures that it are based on are of value, the Nicene Creed is really nothing more than writing them all down in a formal statement.

and I've already addressed the issue of some, and mostly newer christians that do not have Creedal indoctrination, are more confounded by it, than edified by it.

Thekla said:
Well, if I understand the concern - no, the creed won't "save" anyone. Nor will scripture. Or worship. Or repentance. But these things can, if we will let them, "work the soil of the heart".

Only Christ saves.

indeed.

MamaZ · Dec 31, 2008

I also agree with you uphill. For it is not the creed that I hold on to but Christ. Creeds are statements of faith in someone elses words. When we as a people can state our own statment of faith in Christ. I hope I am understanding what you are saying since all the posts in between the first op and here.. LOL

Uphill Battle · Dec 31, 2008

Philothei said:
Salvation has nothing to do with anything?

can you point out where I said that?

okay then I guess whether I believe Christ can save me or not.. is irrelevant to my salvation..right? One day I can confess him as my saviour and the next deny him and still get saved? This is very confusing as it makes no sense...

Indeed! I have no idea where you got it from! Very confusing.

How can you be saved but denying any salvation statement? Such as "I look for the resurection of the dead and life eternal"? If you do not believe it then I do not think salvation really matters to you ...does it?

I'm denying the need for any such formal statement.

here's and idea. go and READ what I have posted. ALL of it. THEN formulate an opinion/argument.

If you deny Christ are you still saved?

no. and I don't see where I said that.

So? what is wrong with that? Confessing one faith?

nothing? Again, where did I say any such thing?

So what this has to do with our salvation? No... I still do not see the connection here truly...The first Christians did practice it..

practice what? the Creed is from the 4th century. How did they practice the Creed? the Frist Christians were dead and gone before it's inception.

Philothei said:
You figure it out first and then we talk ...but please save it telling me I do not understand... this is the second time you are doing this BTW...

ok, I'LL do it. you do NOT understand. You're posts hilight this. since I'm the OP, I think I'm more than justified in stating that you have been completely missing the point.

And I am talking about the OP... I think the OP is confused himself and just because YOU do not understand it and instead decide to play with words and not dealing what we are discussing... That does not make it irrelevant or that I am clueless...

how can I be confused about what point I'm trying to make?

ticker said:
I reject the creeds

...this guy sure doesn't.

bah.

Thekla · Dec 31, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
Again, the purpose of a creed is to make a statement of faith. The purpose of a creed is not to bring about faith. It's to say this is what we believe, if you don't agree with said statement you are not one of us.

On the first point, this would seem to suggest that any recounting of the "good news" that is not a direct quote from scripture is of no effect; on this point I disagree. The good news was preached and some of the particular words of preaching were recorded as scripture. But the witnessing of the "good news" is the information now contained in scripture. Additionally, it is not scripture but the Holy Spirit who converts. Paul was clear - the hearing is not enough; we must also receive. Further, faith is a matter of growth ("I believe, Lord. Help my unbelief.") In this sense, the content of scripture or creed act as "goal". The creed offers the "goal of belief" in abbreviated form. And yes, it does say "I do not worship Zeus, etc". But this can also be said of the scripture; if one does not believe that Christ is God, then why would one state the creed or worship with those who do ?

Now, given that, the question is, how do we receive faith. Paul says we receive faith though hearing the word of God. What is the best place to hear the word of God? The Bible right? To hear the word of God you don't go read someone else's statement of faith.

Can we hear the word of God in the scripture if we aren't able to read ? Is the message of the scripture not able to be summarized and taught ? Yes, to hear the word of God, I do not consult the Koran - our "statement of faith" is different. But by knowing someone's statement of faith, I have a sense of what is believed without - for example - reading the entire Koran.

And the Nicene creed is not a complilation of scripture. A compliation of scripture would be directly quoteing scripture. The Nicene Creed does not do so.

It summarizes or compiles scriptural information that identifies Who is worshiped. Again, can the good news of Jesus Christ be only stated in the words stated in scripture to be of effect ? If this is so, why do we have the Bible in English ? It is not the exact words of scripture.

Oh, by the way, I agree with the Nicene creed and do not reject it. However like most non-Catholic or non-EOC's, I don't agree with the meaning of "Catholic" as you see the meaning of it.

I don't know what your definition of "catholic" is so I cannot comment; I am Greek Orthodox, not RC. I can say, however, that the word is often mistranslated or misunderstood.

All I'm trying to say is that the scriptures are the best place to go to hear God's word. The words themselves do not magically save you but the Holy Spirit will use the truth in those words to convict the non-believer in his heart. After he has been converted then he can recite statements of faith.

The truth of Christ is found in scripture. The truth of Christ is found in many forms of witness. The scripture is accurate and provides more information than a conversation or a creed and is indeed a great treasure. But the Holy Spirit can convert without the particular words of scripture, and after this the scripture assists in learning and honing one's belief. Again, this "formula" is not the only one; otherwise those who cannot read would never be Christian.

Many coming with their creeds in their hands tried shoving them down people's throats.

The same thing happens with the scripture. And with a verbal teaching on Christ. In fact, one does not even need to know the creed to do this "shoving".

And when their creeds of a loving savior was not accepted they caused alot of hate and bitterness, suffereing, torture, and death.

Point is, both creeds and scripture will be missused.

Yes, this has happened and happens still; do we abandon the use of scripture because it has been used in this manner ?

I can view hearing and reading as being the same.

They are the same; it is the message that is needed to be heard. Hearing, in its older meaning, means "obey". In this sense, the message itself must be received and obeyed. The particular form or medium of the giving of the message may vary -- it is the central content of the message and its receiving which is important.

Kristos · Dec 31, 2008

In theory I can see that creeds should not be needed, but in practice they seem to be the norm/necessary. Even the dissenters war cry will eventually become the creed of those who join him.

Why do they print plot summaries on the inside cover a novels? So that we don't have to read the novel? No. So that we know what "it's about" before we buy it - quickly and easily. Then we read the whole thing. And if someone else asks what is it about? We could show them the plot summary again, instead of writing our own.

About five year ago I was going to a church that didn't have a "creed". As the church grew, they decided that they needed one - except they called it a "statement of faith". It was a bit of a wake up call for me to see what everyone else and the leadership really believed. I ended up leaving that church for that and some other reasons.

Anyway - sounds like your creed is "I don't believe in creeds", but that would be self-defeating

Philothei · Dec 31, 2008

Post 1

Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ.

post 10

thoughts?
What "redemption" truly means to you? Salvation? Everything that points to God and declares the truths of God have a redemptive character. The Creed especially the Nicene points to Him and the incarnation and summarizes that what is in the bible so how can it not be redemptive?

the POINT of the OP is, I don't disagree with the contents of this creed, or another, but I "reject them" due to the fact that I don't think creedal adherence has any bearing on salvation. I don't think anyone has to "sign their name on this dotted line" to be Christian.

Bottom line what will "count" for salvation will be God and God alone will judge that. Your premise seems to "overide" and put words into God's future actions about judgement... Judgment is mine says the Lord... So the comparisson you are trying to make is pointless IMO. Neither the "practice" of the creed has any bearing on actual salvation....It is rather a tool to faith to remind us of what we believe. Like Thekla said before.

Also since you brought it up where in the Bible it says reciting the Bible is salvific? Hearing the Good News (Evangelion) is how we are to live and witness our faith true. But it does not say that "hearing" it only is salvific but beleiving it is what is important.

nephilimiyr · Dec 31, 2008

Thekla said:
On the first point, this would seem to suggest that any recounting of the "good news" that is not a direct quote from scripture is of no effect; on this point I disagree. The good news was preached and some of the particular words of preaching were recorded as scripture. But the witnessing of the "good news" is the information now contained in scripture. Additionally, it is not scripture but the Holy Spirit who converts. Paul was clear - the hearing is not enough; we must also receive. Further, faith is a matter of growth ("I believe, Lord. Help my unbelief.") In this sense, the content of scripture or creed act as "goal". The creed offers the "goal of belief" in abbreviated form. And yes, it does say "I do not worship Zeus, etc". But this can also be said of the scripture; if one does not believe that Christ is God, then why would one state the creed or worship with those who do ?

Hello Thekla,

Well it shouldn't suggest what you think it does. I'm mearly stating the purpose of a creed. A creed does not have the purpose to evangelize. Again, creeds serve the purpose of stating a belief. With that being said, I agree with the purpose of having a creed.

Can we hear the word of God in the scripture if we aren't able to read ? Is the message of the scripture not able to be summarized and taught ? Yes, to hear the word of God, I do not consult the Koran - our "statement of faith" is different. But by knowing someone's statement of faith, I have a sense of what is believed without - for example - reading the entire Koran.

Again, I believe there is no difference in reading the scriptures or having them read to you, or having the good news told to you, or reading an account of the good news. They all serve the purpose to bring about faith, a creed does not have that purpose. They might help one come into faith but what I'm talking about is purpose.

It summarizes or compiles scriptural information that identifies Who is worshiped. Again, can the good news of Jesus Christ be only stated in the words stated in scripture to be of effect ? If this is so, why do we have the Bible in English ? It is not the exact words of scripture.

Again, creeds don't have the purpose to bring about faith but to state ones faith.

I don't know what your definition of "catholic" is so I cannot comment; I am Greek Orthodox, not RC. I can say, however, that the word is often mistranslated or misunderstood.

It doesn't matter, lets move on.

The truth of Christ is found in scripture. The truth of Christ is found in many forms of witness. The scripture is accurate and provides more information than a conversation or a creed and is indeed a great treasure. But the Holy Spirit can convert without the particular words of scripture, and after this the scripture assists in learning and honing one's belief. Again, this "formula" is not the only one; otherwise those who cannot read would never be Christian.

And again, a creed does not have the purpose to bring about faith but to state a belief one already has.

The same thing happens with the scripture. And with a verbal teaching on Christ. In fact, one does not even need to know the creed to do this "shoving".

Yes, this has happened and happens still; do we abandon the use of scripture because it has been used in this manner ?

Of course not, that wasn't my point and I would've hoped you would've known that. I was simply answering to your statement, which was:

"If those who tell about Christ are full of hate and bitterness, why would I even want to read the scriptures ?

I was mearly pointing out that people have used creeds in the same way you say some people mearly tell about Christ.

They are the same; it is the message that is needed to be heard. Hearing, in its older meaning, means "obey". In this sense, the message itself must be received and obeyed. The particular form or medium of the giving of the message may vary -- it is the central content of the message and its receiving which is important.

Well I don't know about this obey thing you are talking about but at least I can agree on the rest.

Oh, btw, if you want to resize your font to a level 3 all you have to do is click onto the font selection functions above your post window. Otherwise if you are going to type it in yourself, you have to close your statement or paragraph with a [/size3], this is with the slash, otherwise the font wont change and you'll just have the [size3] typed in at the beginning of your statement.

If you're like me and often forget to use the resize function before you type out what you want to say, all you have to do is highlight what you typed in black and then simply click onto the resize function window your desired size.

Meshavrischika · Dec 31, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ.

thoughts?

When I am in services (going to a Methodist church right now) I wont even say them I feel so strongly about it. I know that sounds weird. It's my personal "stand".

Uphill Battle · Dec 31, 2008

Kristos said:
In theory I can see that creeds should not be needed, but in practice they seem to be the norm/necessary. Even the dissenters war cry will eventually become the creed of those who join him.

I know. Silly, isn't it?

Why do they print plot summaries on the inside cover a novels? So that we don't have to read the novel? No. So that we know what "it's about" before we buy it - quickly and easily.

actually, it's more of a marketing tool, than anything.

Then we read the whole thing. And if someone else asks what is it about? We could show them the plot summary again, instead of writing our own.

or we could tell them.

About five year ago I was going to a church that didn't have a "creed". As the church grew, they decided that they needed one - except they called it a "statement of faith". It was a bit of a wake up call for me to see what everyone else and the leadership really believed. I ended up leaving that church for that and some other reasons.

se how a creed or statment can bugger things up?

Anyway - sounds like your creed is "I don't believe in creeds", but that would be self-defeating

that isn't accurate.

Philothei said:
Post 1
thoughts?
What "redemption" truly means to you? Salvation? Everything that points to God and declares the truths of God have a redemptive character. The Creed especially the Nicene points to Him and the incarnation and summarizes that what is in the bible so how can it not be redemptive?

because it is words. The only redemptive thing is the actions of Christ. Words in and of themselves are not redemptive in the slightest.

Bottom line what will "count" for salvation will be God and God alone will judge that. Your premise seems to "overide" and put words into God's future actions about judgement... Judgment is mine says the Lord... So the comparisson you are trying to make is pointless IMO. Neither the "practice" of the creed has any bearing on actual salvation....It is rather a tool to faith to remind us of what we believe. Like Thekla said before.

the actual bottom line here... is that you aren't following along very well. I don't think you have any idea where my thoughts on the matter lie.

Also since you brought it up where in the Bible it says reciting the Bible is salvific?

nowhere. Where did anyone say that?

Hearing the Good News (Evangelion) is how we are to live and witness our faith true. But it does not say that "hearing" it only is salvific but beleiving it is what is important.

agreed. and this has what to do with formal creeds?

HalcyonFire said:
When I am in services (going to a Methodist church right now) I wont even say them I feel so strongly about it. I know that sounds weird. It's my personal "stand".

cool.

Philothei · Dec 31, 2008

It seems to me just like a teenager's rebellion... against their parents "rules"... Let me ask you this... Why would "I believe in God" would be such a "terrible declaration" of one's beliefs? The very fact you attent church you declare and identify with being Christian whether you recite it or not you are "confessing" it in action.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

Also since you brought it up where in the Bible it says reciting the Bible is salvific? Hearing the Good News (Evangelion) is how we are to live and witness our faith true. But it does not say that "hearing" it only is salvific but beleiving it is what is important.

Hearing and doing is also important. I just love this Proclamation by JESUS in Mark 1

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the time and has neared/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message."

Luke 21:31 Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

Philothei · Dec 31, 2008

because it is words. The only redemptive thing is the actions of Christ. Words in and of themselves are not redemptive in the slightest.

Thought promote actions. Actions come from words and beliefs You cannot believe in Budda and act like a Hindu... That is very far fetched... You confess/witness Budda and act like a Buddist. Of course not all who confess do not witness as Christians but that does not mean that we have to "throw" out our creeds as they are meaningless and useless... Reducing our beliefs to actions ONLY and we are left with nothing. Reading the scripture can become "formal" and "empty" just the same.. ARe we not to "recite" the Bible also since it is ONLY word and not action?

the actual bottom line here... is that you aren't following along very well. I don't think you have any idea where my thoughts on the matter lie.

I am not following along... sure whatever you say. enlighten me please or just let it be... It doesn't matter as the result will be I am the one who is "not following along"

Uphill Battle · Dec 31, 2008

Philothei said:
It seems to me just like a teenager's rebellion... against their parents "rules"...

I'm sure it does. You come from a mindset where the Formal creeds are of utmost importance.

I hold no such illusion.

Let me ask you this... Why would "I believe in God" would be such a "terrible declaration" of one's beliefs?

who said it was? are you missing the point yet again?

The very fact you attent church you declare and identify with being Christian whether you recite it or not you are "confessing" it in action.

Indeed. I believe with my heart, and I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord.

again, you are missing the point. It isn't about personal statements that I'm addressing in this thread. It's about FORMAL creeds.

Thekla · Dec 31, 2008

I do find the hesitation to pronounce creeds confusing; in Romans 10 Paul is quite clear, one must believe and confess. 1 John states the same. The confession, "Jesus is Lord" is also a creed - do we insist not to say this ? In the epistles which are addressed to the already converted, Paul quotes short creedal statements. In instruction/catechism, the creed is used for instruction.

Uphill Battle · Dec 31, 2008

Philothei said:
Thought promote actions. Actions come from words and beliefs You cannot believe in Budda and act like a Hindu... That is very far fetched... You confess/witness Budda and act like a Buddist. Of course not all who confess do not witness as Christians but that does not mean that we have to "throw" out our creeds as they are meaningless and useless... Reducing our beliefs to actions ONLY and we are left with nothing. Reading the scripture can become "formal" and "empty" just the same.. ARe we not to "recite" the Bible also since it is ONLY word and not action?

the action of our beliefs, are what indicate our beliefs. Not what we read. not what we quote.

and yes, reading scripture can be a formal, empty excercise.

otherwise, those guys who hold up the John 3:16 signs at football games would have some spiritual signifigance.

I am not following along... sure whatever you say. enlighten me please or just let it be... It doesn't matter as the result will be I am the one who is "not following along"

If you seek enlightenment, read the thread. It's all been explained, and discussed. It really isn't the fault of the rest of the posters if their all in right field, and you're in the left.

nephilimiyr · Dec 31, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
It isn't about personal statements that I'm addressing in this thread. It's about FORMAL creeds.

Just thought I'd highlight this very simple yet important point you have been trying to make.

I admitt though that I don't quite understand why you and others object so strongly to them. I do understand what your point is but I don't understand why such a strong rejection of them. Why don't you think it's imporant for a church to have a statement of faith? Because the way I see it, that is what you are objecting to.

Shouldn't a church have the right to say this is what we believe? And don't they owe it to people, especially new comers or visitors, to state that belief so that people know what are the basic tenants of the church?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
........

Shouldn't a church have the right to say this is what we believe? And don't they owe it to people, especially new comers or visitors, to state that belief so that people know what are the basic tenants of the church?

Can someone define "church" for me? Is that akin to a Denomination which to me is unscriptural. Thaks.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
........

Shouldn't a church have the right to say this is what we believe? And don't they owe it to people, especially new comers or visitors, to state that belief so that people know what are the basic tenants of the church?

Can someone define "church" for me? Is that akin to a Denomination which to me is unscriptural.

What is the difference for example between the creed the RCC and Orthodox use and what is different in the Creed that Protestants use compared to those 2 Denominations. Thks.

I reject the creeds

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Love never fails

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