I reject the creeds

[Philothei]

He is not talking about the truth in a creed or whether you or him agree with it or not. The way I read the OP is He's talking about the saving power behind a creed.

Salvation has nothing to do with anything? okay then I guess whether I believe Christ can save me or not.. is irrelevant to my salvation..right? One day I can confess him as my saviour and the next deny him and still get saved? This is very confusing as it makes no sense...How can you be saved but denying any salvation statement? Such as "I look for the resurection of the dead and life eternal"? If you do not believe it then I do not think salvation really matters to you ...does it?

"

Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ."

If you deny Christ are you still saved?

He is talking about formal creeds. Formal creeds have the purpose of stating what a particular church, organization, or group of people believe.

So? what is wrong with that? Confessing one faith? So what this has to do with our salvation? No... I still do not see the connection here truly...The first Christians did practice it..

The purpose of creeds is to make a statement of faith of what they, the church, the organization, or group believes but that does not mean all people within that church, organization, or group is redeemed by Christ.

That is irrelevant. Salvation is not quaranted upon "reciting" the faith statement. Totally agree here.. It has to do with inner disposition and faith.

And people may recite a particular creed but that doesn't mean they truely believe it

as above.. .

 

[sunlover1]

Jack is a mod and a friend lighten up, its a chuck norris bruce lee joke.

Which reminds me that I wanted to
tell you both how very dapper you're looking.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well, if I understand the concern - no, the creed won't "save" anyone. Nor will scripture. Or worship. Or repentance. But these things can, if we will let them, "work the soil of the heart".

Only Christ saves.

Yes Christ saves but I disagree that reading scripture wont save you.

Galatians 3:2, I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

This comes very close to what Uphill is trying to say. He's asking, Did you receive the Spirit by reciting a creed or by believing what the scriptures said?

Romans 10:17, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

For us there is no better way to hear the word of Christ then to read the scriptures for ourselves. Otherwise, yes, there are other ways but the scriptures are the best way.
Either by reading them or hearing them being read.

 

[Philothei]

Yes Christ saves but I disagree that reading scripture wont save you.

No it will not as there is not magic to it.. You have to apply what you read and comprehent it. If it does then all those "reading" it are saved? Where does it say that? From the message that exists in the Bible the Apostles talk about "believing" and "doing the commandments" than we can be saved.. Quoting verses out of context can put a man in the moon BTW...

Galatians 3:2, I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

This comes very close to what Uphill is trying to say. He's asking, Did you receive the Spirit by reciting a creed or by believing what the scriptures said?

So there is an "action" as believing is not believing one day and disbelieving another.. Ulike today belief in those days was a commitment a life time commitment.... it does has to do with commitment in our belief in Christ and God...



Romans 10:17, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

For us there is no better way to hear the word of Christ then to read the scriptures for ourselves. Otherwise, yes, there are other ways but the scriptures are the best way.
Either by reading them or hearing them being read.

shall we see this verse in its proper context?

Here:

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”



so from the whole passage we see that first comes hearing and then believing.. You cannot automatically believe even if you hear... For the parable of the farmer who spreads the seed... Not all the seed falls in fertile ground thus not all those who "hear have ears to hear" ... So the action is not on the "hearing" but rather the believing..

 

[nephilimiyr]

Salvation has nothing to do with anything? okay then I guess whether I believe Christ can save me or not.. is irrelevant to my salvation..right? One day I can confess him as my saviour and the next deny him and still get saved? This is very confusing as it makes no sense...How can you be saved but denying any salvation statement? Such as "I look for the resurection of the dead and life eternal"? If you do not believe it then I do not think salvation really matters to you ...does it?

I think the point of the OP is what comes first, your statement of faith or your faith in your statement.

Of course your faith has to come first otherwise there would be no statement.

If you deny Christ are you still saved?

By asking this you are showing you still are not understanding the OP. Actually, I'm not totally convinced I do either.

So? what is wrong with that? Confessing one faith? So what this has to do with our salvation? No... I still do not see the connection here truly...The first Christians did practice it.

No one said there was a problem with it, even the OP said he has no problem with confessing ones faith.

The first christians also let the gifts of the Spirit wane until they were non-existant, I don't always look to the first christians as good examples. In fact, could we see their zealous belief and numerous recitals of creeds as a hinderance? Possibility, this is something I need to think about and pray over.

That is irrelevant. Salvation is not quaranted upon "reciting" the faith statement. Totally agree here.. It has to do with inner disposition and faith.

We probably agree more than we disagree, although, given my above statement you may not think so now.

 

[Philothei]

By asking this you are showing you still are not understanding the OP. Actually, I'm not totally convinced I do either.

You figure it out first and then we talk ...but please save it telling me I do not understand... this is the second time you are doing this BTW...

 

[nephilimiyr]

No it will not as there is not magic to it.. You have to apply what you read and comprehent it. If it does then all those "reading" it are saved? Where does it say that? From the message that exists in the Bible the Apostles talk about "believing" and "doing the commandments" than we can be saved.. Quoting verses out of context can put a man in the moon BTW...

I hear yah. I'm not saying simply by reading scripture you will be saveed, just that faith comes by hearing the word of God, that's all. Yes there are other ways to hear the word of God other than the scriptures but the scriptures are the best place to go.

So allow me to rephrase that: Yes Christ saves but the purpose of His word, the scriptures, is to bring about salvation. On the other hand, the purpose of a creed is not to bring about salvation but to put in print what saved people already believe.

So there is an "action" as believing is not believing one day and disbelieving another.. Ulike today belief in those days was a commitment a life time commitment.... it does has to do with commitment in our belief in Christ and God...

Well, I never said there was no action on our part did I?

so from the whole passage we see that first comes hearing and then believing.. You cannot automatically believe even if you hear... For the parable of the farmer who spreads the seed... Not all the seed falls in fertile ground thus not all those who "hear have ears to hear" ... So the action is not on the "hearing" but rather the believing..

And now lets get back to the topic of this thread. Creeds are statements of faith, that is the purpose they serve. They do not serve the purpose of bringing about faith. Or may not be, I am open to hear your ideas of how creeds can bring about faith.

 

[simonthezealot]

Which reminds me that I wanted to
tell you both how very dapper you're looking.

On behalf of action jacksonthecatholic and his zealous friend simon...
Much thanks...We don't look so good after one of our confrontations but respect each other just the same

 

[nephilimiyr]

You figure it out first and then we talk ...but please save it telling me I do not understand... this is the second time you are doing this BTW...

Well, even the OP has let it be known to you that you don't understand what he is saying, but go ahead and be difficult, at least I admitt I totally don't understand what he is trying to say, you on the other hand...

it is abundantly clear you didn't read through the thread.

 

[Thekla]

Yes Christ saves but I disagree that reading scripture wont save you.

Galatians 3:2, I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

This comes very close to what Uphill is trying to say. He's asking, Did you receive the Spirit by reciting a creed or by believing what the scriptures said?

I'm not sure I understand here: the creed is a compilation of scripture, the "evangellion" in an abbreviated form (check out Paul on this). Creed is not observing the Law, but a brief summary of the Gospel. If the long form of the scripture can save, why not the short form which contains the central message in a length more easily memorized ? I don't think either can save, but they both point. If scripture saves, why bother with Christ Himself ? I think receiving the Holy Spirt is a gift, and not soley for the literate.

Romans 10:17, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

For us there is no better way to hear the word of Christ then to read the scriptures for ourselves. Otherwise, yes, there are other ways but the scriptures are the best way.
Either by reading them or hearing them being read.

But Paul points out it is through "true hearing" as illustrated in those who listened but did not hear. Isaiah is quoted as saying " Lord, who has received our report ?" And earlier in the chapter, Paul says believe and confess -- is belief automatically achieved by reading or listening ? Or is something else needed ?

What about reciting the summary of the "good news" keeps us from reading the scripture, or believing. IMO, the creed is a 'love song', a song I say to the One I love. It tells about Him. I also read the scripture; it tells about the One I love. How did I know of Him whom I love, Christ ? Because I experienced His love through those who loved Him.

If those who tell about Christ are full of hate and bitterness, why would I even want to read the scriptures ?
So in my case, the hearing came before the reading, and I would not have read if I had not first heard. What I heard was a witnessing of the love of Christ in action.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

If those who tell about Christ are full of hate and bitterness, why would I even want to read the scriptures ?
So in my case, the hearing came before the reading, and I would not have read if I had not first heard. What I heard was a witnessing of the love of Christ in action.

That's so beautiful Thekla!!

 

[Philothei]

On the other hand, the purpose of a creed is not to bring about salvation but to put in print what saved people already believe.

who told you that "saved" people recite the creeds? You are totally off in your assesment my friend.. Just like reading the Bible one has to believe it.. The same way reading creeds one has to put his faith on it.... There is no quarantee on salvation either way...Or if you skip one day reading the Bible you are "automatically" unsaved? You are contradicting yourself here...
And I am talking about the OP... I think the OP is confused himself and just because YOU do not understand it and instead decide to play with words and not dealing what we are discussing... That does not make it irrelevant or that I am clueless...

 

[Philothei]

but go ahead and be difficult,

so when people point out language insinuantos are difficult? I was observing your communication skills and made a comment that bothered me. I do not want others to "tell me" what I understand and what I do not. It is not of their business rather deal with what I say...

 

[nephilimiyr]

I'm not sure I understand here: the creed is a compilation of scripture, the "evangellion" in an abbreviated form (check out Paul on this). Creed is not observing the Law, but a brief summary of the Gospel. If the long form of the scripture can save, why not the short form which contains the central message in a length more easily memorized ? I don't think either can save, but they both point. If scripture saves, why bother with Christ Himself ? I think receiving the Holy Spirt is a gift, and not soley for the literate.

Again, the purpose of a creed is to make a statement of faith. The purpose of a creed is not to bring about faith. It's to say this is what we believe, if you don't agree with said statement you are not one of us.

Now, given that, the question is, how do we receive faith. Paul says we receive faith though hearing the word of God. What is the best place to hear the word of God? The Bible right? To hear the word of God you don't go read someone else's statement of faith.

And the Nicene creed is not a complilation of scripture. A compliation of scripture would be directly quoteing scripture. The Nicene Creed does not do so.

Oh, by the way, I agree with the Nicene creed and do not reject it. However like most non-Catholic or non-EOC's, I don't agree with the meaning of "Catholic" as you see the meaning of it.

But Paul points out it is through "true hearing" as illustrated in those who listened but did not hear. Isaiah is quoted as saying " Lord, who has received our report ?" And earlier in the chapter, Paul says believe and confess -- is belief automatically achieved by reading or listening ? Or is something else needed ?

All I'm trying to say is that the scriptures are the best place to go to hear God's word. The words themselves do not magically save you but the Holy Spirit will use the truth in those words to convict the non-believer in his heart. After he has been converted then he can recite statements of faith.

What about reciting the summary of the "good news" keeps us from reading the scripture, or believing. IMO, the creed is a 'love song', a song I say to the One I love. It tells about Him. I also read the scripture; it tells about the One I love. How did I know of Him whom I love, Christ ? Because I experienced His love through those who loved Him.

You may place all the love you want in your creed, I wont try to stop you.

If those who tell about Christ are full of hate and bitterness, why would I even want to read the scriptures ?

Many coming with their creeds in their hands tried shoving them down people's throats. And when their creeds of a loving savior was not accepted they caused alot of hate and bitterness, suffereing, torture, and death. Or did the Pope John Paul apologize for nothing?

Point is, both creeds and scripture will be missused.

So in my case, the hearing came before the reading, and I would not have read if I had not first heard. What I heard was a witnessing of the love of Christ in action.

I can view hearing and reading as being the same.

 

[sunlover1]

On behalf of action jacksonthecatholic and his zealous friend simon...
Much thanks...We don't look so good after one of our confrontations but respect each other just the same

Just so I dont have ta smell ya'll after one of your confrontations.

 

[nephilimiyr]

who told you that "saved" people recite the creeds? You are totally off in your assesment my friend.

Please don't call me your friend and then talk to me in an unfriendly, condescending, tone.

No one told me "saved" people. We can maybe work out what a more appropreiate word we both can agree with if you'd like.

Just like reading the Bible one has to believe it.. The same way reading creeds one has to put his faith on it.... There is no quarantee on salvation either way...Or if you skip one day reading the Bible you are "automatically" unsaved? You are contradicting yourself here...

I think you are reading far too much into what I was saying. I never said any of these things you chose to make points on.

And I am talking about the OP... I think the OP is confused himself and just because YOU do not understand it and instead decide to play with words and not dealing what we are discussing... That does not make it irrelevant or that I am clueless...

Right now I don't care what you're talking about, you're just being rude.

Friend? Yeah riiiight!

 

[ticker]

I was a denominational moderator here at CF for over a year and I know the difference between someone wanting to bring understanding and peace to a discussion and when someone is just being difficult.

Amen to that.

 

[ticker]

I reject the creeds

...this guy sure doesn't.

http://soupytrumpet.com/uploads/2008/02/aaaaa.jpg

 

[Philothei]

I think when someone tells them that they are misunderstanding something being said they should stop and think it over and then try to work with the person to bring about understanding. You have done the complete opposite. You are not trying to bring about anykind of understanding here but using your time to bring strife and disagreement.

And your moderator icon does not scare me. I was a denominational moderator here at CF for over a year and I know the difference between someone wanting to bring understanding and peace to a discussion and when someone is just being difficult.

I wanted to state my view and you went on and on about my "styling" and what I understand being conducending.. .Sorry but that is not cutting it... I disagree so what? Are we not allowed to disagree you can use your words to persuade not to conducent ...

I never used my mod icon to "scare" you I talked like a human being to another telling you how I felt too bad you chose to see it that way... Being difficult is your point of view my friend to me I was being honest. If you do not "understand" that then not my problem

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Your post is downright offensive! Threatening violence against another member because you disagree with him?

Where are the mods??!!!

He never said the Creed was God's word. Furthermore, every part of the Nicene Creed can be found IN the Bible.

Not to mention, the Creed existed before the Bible did!

Thanks.

But I do not think Simon was threatening me. Instead we have had a personal joke about Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris that seems to have been misunderstood. I apologize.

And you are correct that I never claimed the Creed to be God's word though I could theologically debate this since we know God guides the Catholic Church (RCC, EOC and OOC) and this can imply that the council and creed were inspired by God or led by God.

And the Nicene Creed was accepted before the scriptures were canonized, this is true.

Shalom