I really hate the book of Revelation

[Phantasman]

By citing Daniel's prophetic statement at Daniel 9:27 and calling him a prophet, he established Daniel as one of Jehovah's faithful prophets and inspired by him. Being God's "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16) and by quoting from the book of Daniel, he stamped it as authentic, as God's word.

For example, at Daniel 8, Daniel sees a vision of a "ram....and it had two horns", with one taller than the other, and it was making "thrusts to the west and to the north and the south, and no wild beast kept standing before it, and there was no one delivering out of its hand....and it out on great airs."(Dan 8:4) It clashed with a "he-goat", trampling it down. What did this foretell ?

That a kingdom would arise and crush everything in its path quickly, which proved to be Greece under the command of Alexander the Great that became king of Macedonia in 336 B.C.E. He moved swiftly and in 331 B.C.E. disposed of Medo-Persia ("the hairy he-goat", Dan 8:21) at Gaugamela, ending the Medo-Persian world power, and with Greece now taking its place.

The angel gave an explanation of these at Dan 8:20, 21, but also provided another detail that the "king of Greece" would be "broken" and divided into "four kingdoms". This proved true, as four of his generals took control of the empire after his death in 323 B.C.E., (1) Ptolemy Lagus, (2) Cassander, (3) Lysimachus, and (4) Seleucus Nicator. It need be remembered that this was foretold some 200 years in advance, thus providing evidence that Daniel is "inspired of God."(2 Tim 3:16)

Thus, all of the book of Daniel is "legit" and is among the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) that are "inspired of God", and that Jesus in many cases quoted from (such as Gen 2:24 at Matt 19:4-6; 1 Sam 21:6 at Matt 12:3, 4)

And our Creator, Jehovah God, cited Daniel as righteous, along with Noah and Job, putting him among his loyal ones.(Eze 14:19, 20) The apostle Paul cited Daniel as one who "stopped the mouths of lions"(Heb 11:33, Dan 6:22) and of his three Hebrew companions who "stayed the force of fire."(Heb 11:34, Dan 3:26)

It is not surprising that many are casting doubt on Daniel as well as other parts of the Bible. This is what Marcion, a 2nd century gnostic did, constructing his canon to suit his doctrines, taking only certain ones of the apostle Paul's letters and an expurgated form of Luke's gospel account.

Many treat the Bible like a buffet meal, choose this, but reject others. By rejecting any of the Bible (66 books, 39 Hebrew, 27 Greek) that has been established as "inspired of God", is a slap to God's face. This person will be rejected by him unless these fully recognize (and apply) that all of the Bible is from Jehovah God.

Who (exactly) says that the 27 Greek scriptures are the true word of God? Or the Bible for that fact?

 

[Ripheus27]

One can solve this issue by simply opening up a history book and consulting a few of the older biblical commentaries, like Barnes, Clarke or Matthew Henry. If it was written "partly after the fact," you're looking at sometime after 70AD.

I was referring to the Antiochus stuff, which arguably was written during, not long before, the time of Antiochus. Now even if Daniel was all written 700 years before the destruction of Jerusalem (and not partly in 167 BC or whenever), to believe that someday in the future Jerusalem would be destroyed is... More than a lucky guess, sure, but not necessarily a vision of the future. I mean, history is replete with entire cities being wiped out. Rome for one butchered the Carthaginians long before butchering Jews.

 

[Enkil]

I was referring to the Antiochus stuff, which arguably was written during, not long before, the time of Antiochus. Now even if Daniel was all written 700 years before the destruction of Jerusalem (and not partly in 167 BC or whenever), to believe that someday in the future Jerusalem would be destroyed is... More than a lucky guess, sure, but not necessarily a vision of the future. I mean, history is replete with entire cities being wiped out. Rome for one butchered the Carthaginians long before butchering Jews.

The prophecy literally predicts the exact time when we ought to have expected it, counting down from the point where the order is given to rebuild the city and the streets, to the cutting off of Messiah, and finally the final week wherein the Temple is destroyed. Hence "Daniel's 70 weeks." A lucky fact, the Temple was destroyed on the same day, in the same month, as it was first destroyed by the Babylonians. The only reason that Daniel is accused of being written during the time of Antiochus is the fact that it predicts those events with the same accuracy and finality as it did the desolation by the Romans, as Josephus himself asserts.

 

[Soulgazer]

Seventy weeks is less than two years. A week is seven days. Yes, the "Week of Sabboths" or just 70 for an indertrminite amount of time. They had a unit of time for years, and if Daniel had meant years he would have said years. He also said it was given to him via an angel. Mohammed said he saw an angel too.

That's the trouble with all of this prophesy nonsence. You can read anything into it you want to make sure the prophey "comes true". Or you can just start from an important event and work backward to see if some writing somewhere covers it. The impeachment of Nixon was found to have been "prophesied" by Dylan, when he wrote "even the president of the United States must sometimes have to stand naked"--- But if it hadn't first been applied to Nixon, it certainly would have been applied to Clinton.

It's the same with the "prophesies" of Nostrodomus. If you make something sufficiantly vague so that it can cover any event, then you are free to read anything into it you wish.

 

[Enkil]

Seventy weeks is less than two years. A week is seven days. Yes, the "Week of Sabboths" or just 70 for an indertrminite amount of time. They had a unit of time for years, and if Daniel had meant years he would have said years. He also said it was given to him via an angel. Mohammed said he saw an angel too.

The Jews understood it as years, or in this case, 490 years. It is not unusual in the Prophetic language, and the results stand for themselves. Research it yourself instead of immediately bashing it without knowing of it.

 

[Soulgazer]

The Jews understood it as years, or in this case, 490 years. It is not unusual in the Prophetic language, and the results stand for themselves. Research it yourself instead of immediately bashing it without knowing of it.

I do know it. I even referenced the Jewish "Week of Sabbaths". I have researched it, and now I'm bashing it.

 

[timbo3]

Who (exactly) says that the 27 Greek scriptures are the true word of God? Or the Bible for that fact?

By closely examining the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), these provide prophetic statements that are fulfilled in many instances in the Christian Greek Scriptures, especially concerning the Christ or Messiah. Concerning the Hebrew Scriptures, these have been proven to be "inspired of God". How so ?

Events foretold in advance, such as the downfall of kingdoms, provide evidence of Jehovah God as having it written down. Of the ancient city of Tyre at Ezekiel 26, it was prophetically stated in about 613 B.C.E., that "they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.....And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water."(Eze 26:4, 5, 12)

Did this really happen ? Yes. A few years later after Ezekiel's uttered the prophecy, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, laid seige to Tyre in about 591 B.C.E.(Eze 29:17-19) With part of the city on the mainland and part an island city, it took Nebuchadnezzar 13 years before it finally submitted to him, thus proving the accuracy of Bible prophecy by Jehovah God.

Yet, Tyre's completion was not complete. In 332 B.C.E., the final part of Ezekiel's prophecy was finally fulfilled in all its details. At that time,Alexander the Great was invading Asia. Tyre, feeling very secure as an island city, held out against him. Not wanting to leave a potential enemy at his rear, but not wanting to spend years in a seige against Tyre as had Nebuchadnezzar, he decided to build a land bridge or mole to the island city. But using what ?

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “With the debris of the mainland portion of the city, which he had demolished, he built a huge mole in 332 to join the island to the mainland.” After a relatively short siege, the island city was destroyed. Moreover, Ezekiel’s prophecy was fulfilled in all its details. Even the ‘stones and woodwork and dust’ of Old Tyre were ‘placed in the very midst of the water.’

Likewise of the Christian Greek Scriptures, since these are an extension of the Hebrew Scriptures, there not being an "old and a new testament" as separate, but is one complete book. Thence, many of prophetic statements in the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled in the Christian Greek Scriptures, of which there are an estimated 300 prophecies regarding Jesus as the promised Messiah.

And there are many more prophecies yet to be fulfilled, throughout the Bible, as for instance the first prophecy at Genesis 3:15, whereby the "serpent" would "bruise the woman's seed in the heel" (which occurred with the death of Jesus on a torture stake on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.), but the "woman's seed"(Jesus Christ) would "bruise the serpent (Satan the Devil) in the head" (which will occur at the end Jesus millennial reign that starts soon, Rev 20:10)

Some other details that build faith in the Bible as God's inspired word is that some 3,600 years ago, it was stated that the earth is ' hung on nothing '.(Job 26:7) This could not be accurately deduced until our time. So how was Job able to say this with certainty ? He was inspired by God.

Or that the earth was not flat, as was the thought of the day even up till the time of the Renaissance, but that it is round. Isaiah 40:22 calls the earth a "circle" or sphere (Hebrew chugh ) Hence, how was this known some 800 years before the arrival of Jesus ?

Because the Bible is inspired by Jehovah God, who is "the true God......the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the one laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it."(Isa 42:5)

Or of quarantining individuals some 3,500 years ago (Num 12:14, 15), since bacteria, germs and viruses were not known until Anton van Leeuwenhook of the 17th century (1632-1723), who is known as "the Father of Microbiology". How was it known to quarantine anyone, since microbes were not known at that time ?

Because Jehovah God, as creator of these and the danger presented to imperfect people, told Moses to "let (Miraim) be quarantined" after she was infected with leprosy.(Num 12:14)

The Christian Greek Scriptures are a continuation of the Hebrew Scriptures. There is no division as saying "Old" and New".

 

[Soulgazer]

By closely examining the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), these provide prophetic statements that are fulfilled in many instances in the Christian Greek Scriptures, especially concerning the Christ or Messiah. Concerning the Hebrew Scriptures, these have been proven to be "inspired of God". How so ?

Events foretold in advance, such as the downfall of kingdoms,

Careful research shows that most of the old testament dates no earlier than 550BC. For example, Genesis 45 dates itself with the exchange of silver. Silver as currency was invented by the lydians Ci 600bc. It caught on quite quickly, so a date as early as 550BC for that passage is not out of the question. Except the author would have known it was new!

And of course the story of Goliaths head being carried triumphantly into Jerusalem is completely anachronistic. There were a few years to go yet before David would become king and conquer that city. The author would have David flying an F18.

So I can easily see these so called prophesies being written after the fact.

Austrailian aboriginies were quarenteening sick people as early as 30,000 years ago. They worshipped frogs.

I have seen nothing that convinces me that the Hebrew or later Greek versions of the scripture of the Sadducee paints an accurate picture of the Father of Jesus.

 

[Enkil]

I do know it. I even referenced the Jewish "Week of Sabbaths". I have researched it, and now I'm bashing it.

If that's so, it's one of the weakest "bashes" I have ever seen. I debate Jews on this topic all the time. None have ever made such an argument.

 

[Phantasman]

By closely examining the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), these provide prophetic statements that are fulfilled in many instances in the Christian Greek Scriptures, especially concerning the Christ or Messiah. Concerning the Hebrew Scriptures, these have been proven to be "inspired of God". How so ?

Events foretold in advance, such as the downfall of kingdoms, provide evidence of Jehovah God as having it written down. Of the ancient city of Tyre at Ezekiel 26, it was prophetically stated in about 613 B.C.E., that "they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.....And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water."(Eze 26:4, 5, 12)

Did this really happen ? Yes. A few years later after Ezekiel's uttered the prophecy, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, laid seige to Tyre in about 591 B.C.E.(Eze 29:17-19) With part of the city on the mainland and part an island city, it took Nebuchadnezzar 13 years before it finally submitted to him, thus proving the accuracy of Bible prophecy by Jehovah God.

Yet, Tyre's completion was not complete. In 332 B.C.E., the final part of Ezekiel's prophecy was finally fulfilled in all its details. At that time,Alexander the Great was invading Asia. Tyre, feeling very secure as an island city, held out against him. Not wanting to leave a potential enemy at his rear, but not wanting to spend years in a seige against Tyre as had Nebuchadnezzar, he decided to build a land bridge or mole to the island city. But using what ?

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “With the debris of the mainland portion of the city, which he had demolished, he built a huge mole in 332 to join the island to the mainland.” After a relatively short siege, the island city was destroyed. Moreover, Ezekiel’s prophecy was fulfilled in all its details. Even the ‘stones and woodwork and dust’ of Old Tyre were ‘placed in the very midst of the water.’

Likewise of the Christian Greek Scriptures, since these are an extension of the Hebrew Scriptures, there not being an "old and a new testament" as separate, but is one complete book. Thence, many of prophetic statements in the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled in the Christian Greek Scriptures, of which there are an estimated 300 prophecies regarding Jesus as the promised Messiah.

And there are many more prophecies yet to be fulfilled, throughout the Bible, as for instance the first prophecy at Genesis 3:15, whereby the "serpent" would "bruise the woman's seed in the heel" (which occurred with the death of Jesus on a torture stake on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.), but the "woman's seed"(Jesus Christ) would "bruise the serpent (Satan the Devil) in the head" (which will occur at the end Jesus millennial reign that starts soon, Rev 20:10)

Some other details that build faith in the Bible as God's inspired word is that some 3,600 years ago, it was stated that the earth is ' hung on nothing '.(Job 26:7) This could not be accurately deduced until our time. So how was Job able to say this with certainty ? He was inspired by God.

Or that the earth was not flat, as was the thought of the day even up till the time of the Renaissance, but that it is round. Isaiah 40:22 calls the earth a "circle" or sphere (Hebrew chugh ) Hence, how was this known some 800 years before the arrival of Jesus ?

Because the Bible is inspired by Jehovah God, who is "the true God......the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the one laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it."(Isa 42:5)

Or of quarantining individuals some 3,500 years ago (Num 12:14, 15), since bacteria, germs and viruses were not known until Anton van Leeuwenhook of the 17th century (1632-1723), who is known as "the Father of Microbiology". How was it known to quarantine anyone, since microbes were not known at that time ?

Because Jehovah God, as creator of these and the danger presented to imperfect people, told Moses to "let (Miraim) be quarantined" after she was infected with leprosy.(Num 12:14)

The Christian Greek Scriptures are a continuation of the Hebrew Scriptures. There is no division as saying "Old" and New".

I don't find this much of anything but a belief. Mostly common sense. Early man knew to keep lepers far from them to not contract the disease, and group them into common areas. We can determine now of an economic catastrophe (actually it has been written about for over 40 years) of the world market, and I'm sure soon someone is going to be on the money as a prophet. It doesn't answer why the 27 books (only) and no others or no less are the only word of God in the New Testament.

Constantine invited 1800 bishops to attend the Nicene Council and 312 showed up. Who gave them the authority to say what is and isn't from God. Do you believe God spoke through them? Do you believe Irenaeus, Tertullian and Ignatius was Gods mediators of which disciples we should follow and which ones we shouldn't and that we should include Paul over.........say Thomas? Remember that the Bible came together as the Latin Vulgate around 370 AD. But was really infant around 300 AD. So for 200+ years there were a lot of scriptures.

 

[Enkil]

Careful research shows that most of the old testament dates no earlier than 550BC. For example, Genesis 45 dates itself with the exchange of silver. Silver as currency was invented by the lydians Ci 600bc. It caught on quite quickly, so a date as early as 550BC for that passage is not out of the question. Except the author would have known it was new!

You might be referring to standardized coins. Silver and gold have been used as a kind of currency for more than 4,000 years, much longer than the Lydians. Back then they were weighed to determine their value, as there was no standard, and there are monuments with this kind of activity depicted that are quite ancient. Genesis 45 does not mention any kind of standardized coinage, and silver is also used throughout Genesis much earlier than that.

 

[Soulgazer]

If that's so, it's one of the weakest "bashes" I have ever seen. I debate Jews on this topic all the time. None have ever made such an argument.

I would not expect a Jew to make the same argument. Nor do I really expect you would. So far all I have seen is sentimentalism expressed as fact; that is certainly not going to convince me that the deitty of the Jews was any more relevent than the deity of the vikings let alone having it come anywhere near the perfection of the father of Jesus.

 

[Soulgazer]

You might be referring to standardized coins. Silver and gold have been used as a kind of currency for more than 4,000 years, much longer than the Lydians. Back then they were weighed to determine their value, as there was no standard, and there are monuments with this kind of activity depicted that are quite ancient. Genesis 45 does not mention any kind of standardized coinage, and silver is also used throughout Genesis much earlier than that.

Nope. The lydians invented money, and the passage specifically talks about a unit of coinage, not barter. Salt was the most common form of barter until coinage anyway. History is a wonderful buffer. There are other inconsistancies, let alone the whole "six day" thingie.

Back to the topic at hand; the whole premise of fortelling the future is on shaky ground, specifically if we talk on religious grounds. Someone who is religious wants to believe, and clutches at every little straw. I think Jesus said that the only sign that would be given was the sign of Jonah, and talked about those that looked for signs as a "wicked generation".

 

[Enkil]

Nope. The lydians invented money, and the passage specifically talks about a unit of coinage, not barter.

"While the use of money in the form of bars in Mesopotamia and Egypt may be traced back to the 3rd millennium B.C., above all grain and silver were also used in these highly developed cultures."

Money in Ancient Times – Oesterreichische Nationalbank

In those days, silver was used in various convenient forms, such as lumps, rings, bars, whatever, and they were weighed to determine their value. This is not an opinion. It is a fact.

History is a wonderfful buffer. There are other inconsistancies, let alone the whole "six day" thingie.

I don't know about wonderfful or inconsistancies, but the history of the usage of silver and other precious metals as money goes back long before Abraham. Heck, cattle and other things were used as money, of which you say the Lydians invented!

 

[Enkil]

I would not expect a Jew to make the same argument. Nor do I really expect you would. So far all I have seen is sentimentalism expressed as fact; that is certainly not going to convince me that the deitty of the Jews was any more relevent than the deity of the vikings let alone having it come anywhere near the perfection of the father of Jesus.

I don't know about deitty or relevent, but no expositor, ancient or modern, or even Daniel in the same book, regarded the weeks or any of his visions as being literal. There aren't any giant beasts walking around eating things and splitting off into four horns or whatever. But there is Alexander and his kingdom splitting up into four, and Jesus Christ appearing after 69 "weeks" exactly as predicted. If you want to be obtuse and dismiss the prophecy on account of claiming that prophetic weeks cannot mean years as the ancients believed, you may do so, but I don't have to take this sentimentalism as fact! One would think you would take this a little more seriously for a "CHRISTIAN Gnostic."

 

[Enkil]

Back to the topic at hand; the whole premise of fortelling the future is on shaky ground, specifically if we talk on religious grounds. Someone who is religious wants to believe, and clutches at every little straw. I think Jesus said that the only sign that would be given was the sign of Jonah, and talked about those that looked for signs as a "wicked generation".

You edited this in probably as I was writing the other post. It is easy for someone to say this if they've never actually studied the history and prophecy of various scriptures, especially of Daniel which even gives a timeline. So many people ask for God to give them a "sign" that He exists. The evidence is right there and is not something invented from vague details. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink.

 

[Soulgazer]

"While the use of money in the form of bars in Mesopotamia and Egypt may be traced back to the 3rd millennium B.C., above all grain and silver were also used in these highly developed cultures."

Money in Ancient Times – Oesterreichische Nationalbank

In those days, silver was used in various convenient forms, such as lumps, rings, bars, whatever, and they were weighed to determine their value. This is not an opinion. It is a fact.



I don't know about wonderfful or inconsistancies, but the history of the usage of silver and other precious metals as money goes back long before Abraham. Heck, cattle and other things were used as money, of which you say the Lydians invented!

There is a difference. The passage in genesis does not refer to a barter transaction, but coins. The Lydians invented coins, not barter. Critical dating still puts the development of the book around 500-600BC. This is also a fact not an opinion.

 

[Soulgazer]

I don't know about deitty or relevent, but no expositor, ancient or modern, or even Daniel in the same book, regarded the weeks or any of his visions as being literal. There aren't any giant beasts walking around eating things and splitting off into four horns or whatever. But there is Alexander and his kingdom splitting up into four, and Jesus Christ appearing after 69 "weeks" exactly as predicted. If you want to be obtuse and dismiss the prophecy on account of claiming that prophetic weeks cannot mean years as the ancients believed, you may do so, but I don't have to take this sentimentalism as fact! One would think you would take this a little more seriously for a "CHRISTIAN Gnostic."

I take it quite seriously. Eternity is too serious not to.

The "prophesies"for the most part are non-prophesies when really studied.

Eziekial's rantings against Tyre, that was mentioned somewhere earlier come to mind.

For thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, you shall never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken," says Yahweh God (26:3-14).

Didn't happen. Ol Nebuchadnezzar broke his army against Tyre. Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would "be no more forever," but, it just didn't happen that way. Tyre existed after Ezekiel in the days of Jesus, who "withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon" at one time during his personal ministry (Matt. 15:21), and it existed in the story of the Apostle Paul, who, returning from one of his missionary journeys, stopped and found disciples, and "tarried with them seven days "(Acts 21:3). In fact, Tyre still exists today, as anyone able to read a map can verify.

 

[Enkil]

There is a difference. The passage in genesis does not refer to a barter transaction, but coins. The Lydians invented coins, not barter. Critical dating still puts the development of the book around 500-600BC. This is also a fact not an opinion.

It is an opinion, because you're claiming that the passage in Genesis is referring to silver coins instead of silver pieces, as well as getting confused about "money" and the confirmed historical fact that silver, amongst other precious items, have been used for purchasing, tributes, rewards, trades, and even religious use (amongst many other things) for many thousands of years.

 

[Soulgazer]

It is an opinion, because you're claiming that the passage in Genesis is referring to silver coins instead of silver pieces, as well as getting confused about "money" and the confirmed historical fact that silver, amongst other precious items, have been used for purchasing, tributes, rewards, trades, and even religious use (amongst many other things) for many thousands of years.

Yes, but not coins, which Genesis refers to. There was no unit of weight refered to, not a barter situation. You are grasping at straws.

Genesis as a WHOLE, aside from the usage of silver, dates from the 5th and 6th century. That is the fact I was relaying.

I do not trust "Prophesy"...it seems to be literary slight of hand.