I need a proof for free will.

I think that to properly answer the OP, we have to define the entity that is exercising free will. I think that for many definitions of free will, we can find a definition of consciousness/self that will allow the existence of free will, and vice versa.

Sorry if that's a little disjointed, I'm tired.

Also, I'll throw something else into the mix, just for public consumption. I ran across a neuroscience report recently describing an interesting experiment. Subjects were asked to choose and press either a button to their left, or to their right. They were given no direction as to which button to press. The controls were allowed to press whichever button they chose, while some of the subjects had a certain section of their brain stimulated with a magnetic field. The scientists determined that by using stimulation, they could control which button the subjects pressed. (With something like a 70% success rate) Furthermore, and more interestingly, the controlled subjects believed that they made the choice of their own free will.

Thoughts?

Illuminatus said:

I think that to properly answer the OP, we have to define the entity that is exercising free will. I think that for many definitions of free will, we can find a definition of consciousness/self that will allow the existence of free will, and vice versa.

Sorry if that's a little disjointed, I'm tired.

Also, I'll throw something else into the mix, just for public consumption. I ran across a neuroscience report recently describing an interesting experiment. Subjects were asked to choose and press either a button to their left, or to their right. They were given no direction as to which button to press. The controls were allowed to press whichever button they chose, while some of the subjects had a certain section of their brain stimulated with a magnetic field. The scientists determined that by using stimulation, they could control which button the subjects pressed. (With something like a 70% success rate) Furthermore, and more interestingly, the controlled subjects believed that they made the choice of their own free will.

Thoughts?

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I don't see the proof that I am controlled in everything I do.

No there is definititely no free will in the sense that most people interpret it. Everything I do is a result of the input of my environment and the structure of my body (including genetics, trauma, memories stored in synapses etc...). Of course the uncertainty of Heisenberg would mean that everything is not completely determined, but that matters little on this subject. I've debated endlessly about this on Religiousforums.com so sorry for this short reply but I'll paste a link here if anyone is interested.

elman said:

I don't see the proof that I am controlled in everything I do.

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Oh, you need proof for the things you believe in, as of lately!
"Controlled" is a potentially misleading word - it suggest a conscious controller.

You are not controlled in everything you do, rather everything you (=your body, consisting of atoms governed by the laws of physics) do is determined to a certain degree (not completely, because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle).

Determinism states that there is no such thing as free will.

It seems people are arguing for free will through a series of choices- but as some members have already stated, Isaac Asimov argues against this using his experience principle.

The idea that your brain, your subconcious or unconcious (sp) mind processes information, stores the stimulus, decision and nature of outcome (either positive or negative) and then has an associative stimulus resopnse next time the event occurs.

One example, it may be rather crude, is of a man that would do the washing up before going upstairs to go to bed with his wife.
After a month, whether or not he was going to be with his wife, he would get an erection. Stimulus response.

So...this works on all levels, you react without realising it in the best possible way according to your life experiences.
Hence people that have phobias, because of a nasty childhood incident, or sexual griefs, (this is Freudian territory), due to a sexually traumatic childhood expierience.

Beyond this, you and your choices, are controlled not only by your genetics, but by your bodily impulses.

You go to the toilet when you need to, you drink when thirsty, you eat when hungry, you cry when (extremely) sad.
All you are is a series of stimulus responses dictated by your genetics and your metabolism/physicality (your organism).

quatona said:

Oh, you need proof for the things you believe in, as of lately!
"Controlled" is a potentially misleading word - it suggest a conscious controller.

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I don't care if you are talking about a consciouis controller or an unconscious controller, I don't see the controller keeping me from being able to make my own decisions. Actually I don't have to believe I am able to make decisions. This is one of the things I know.

Naihtepo said:

No there is definititely no free will in the sense that most people interpret it. Everything I do is a result of the input of my environment and the structure of my body (including genetics, trauma, memories stored in synapses etc...). Of course the uncertainty of Heisenberg would mean that everything is not completely determined, but that matters little on this subject. I've debated endlessly about this on Religiousforums.com so sorry for this short reply but I'll paste a link here if anyone is interested.

Click to expand...

Every thing you do is not the result of your enviroment and the structure of your body. Some of the things you do is the result of you deciding to do it. I am not interested in your link. I decide not to be interested. Nothing forced me to do that. Not my body and not my environment.

Every thing you do is not the result of your enviroment and the structure of your body

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Yes it is, even if you lack the capability to accept or see this.

Some of the things you do is the result of you deciding to do it.

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"You" deciding it is a physical process. A determined physical process, only influenced by the structure of your body and the environmental influences.

I am not interested in your link. I decide not to be interested. Nothing forced me to do that. Not my body and not my environment.

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Oh yes it did, even if you can't accept it . What you fail to see is that "you" actually is nothing more than the result of information centralisation of your body. "You" are not a separate entity, you are just an intermediate of the information processing of your body.

elman said:

I don't care if you are talking about a consciouis controller or an unconscious controller,

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But I care how whether you paraphrase the statements of your discussion partners accuratetely.

I don't see the controller keeping me from being able to make my own decisions.

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There is no controller. This is not the idea that is expressed here. Please respect that.

Actually I don't have to believe I am able to make decisions. This is one of the things I know.

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Wow.

Naihtepo said:

"You" deciding it is a physical process. A determined physical process, only influenced by the structure of your body and the environmental influences.

Oh yes it did, even if you can't accept it . What you fail to see is that "you" actually is nothing more than the result of information centralisation of your body. "You" are not a separate entity, you are just an intermediate of the information processing of your body.

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All of this begs the question: "how do you know that you don't exist" How do you know that physical processes are true? All of these are decisions that you can either accept or reject. There is no evidence for "physical processes" or "information " that does not pass through the subjective lens of "you". It is impossible to look at the world except subjectively. This means that free will, whether in objective reality it is true or not, is the subjective reality that we all have to deal with.

Danhalen said:

All I want is a proof for free will. Please provide me a logical proof of free will and the existence of an omniscient being (where omniscient means "having all knowledge"). I don't need you to make the proof, just provide it.

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There is no proof, and free will is not to be used without consequences. So the story goes, we are given free will but beware what you choose to do with it as your soul is now at stake.

I see it like this, we were never given free will we were Merle given the ability by god himself to defy him as we please. In consequence this suggest god watches upon us from above after giving us the potential to decide the fate of our eternal souls and does nothing.

God is good, God is great, yet he does nothing to protect your eternal fate.

Thats the only prayer Id get on two knees to recite.

2/3 of the worlds population, what a waste. Like I said before no God is better than one who lets his own go for petty reasons.


Create us mortal expect us to fail, PERIOD!

I should take that phrase copy it and paste it 100 times in this forum until it makes sense to someone but me, but everyone is entitled to believe what they want and id also be spamming so ill lay off.

mikenet2006 said:

There is no proof, and free will is not to be used without consequences. So the story goes, we are given free will but beware what you choose to do with it as your soul is now at stake.

I see it like this, we were never given free will we were Merle given the ability by god himself to defy him as we please. In consequence this suggest god watches upon us from above after giving us the potential to decide the fate of our eternal souls and does nothing.

God is good, God is great, yet he does nothing to protect your eternal fate.

Thats the only prayer Id get on two knees to recite.

2/3 of the worlds population, what a waste. Like I said before no God is better than one who lets his own go for petty reasons.


Create us mortal expect us to fail, PERIOD!

I should take that phrase copy it and paste it 100 times in this forum until it makes sense to someone but me, but everyone is entitled to believe what they want and id also be spamming so ill lay off.

Click to expand...

Determinism

Determinism states that there is no such thing as free will.

It seems people are arguing for free will through a series of choices- but as some members have already stated, Isaac Asimov argues against this using his experience principle.

The idea that your brain, your subconcious or unconcious (sp) mind processes information, stores the stimulus, decision and nature of outcome (either positive or negative) and then has an associative stimulus resopnse next time the event occurs.

One example, it may be rather crude, is of a man that would do the washing up before going upstairs to go to bed with his wife.
After a month, whether or not he was going to be with his wife, he would get an erection. Stimulus response.

So...this works on all levels, you react without realising it in the best possible way according to your life experiences.
Hence people that have phobias, because of a nasty childhood incident, or sexual griefs, (this is Freudian territory), due to a sexually traumatic childhood expierience.

Beyond this, you and your choices, are controlled not only by your genetics, but by your bodily impulses.

You go to the toilet when you need to, you drink when thirsty, you eat when hungry, you cry when (extremely) sad.
All you are is a series of stimulus responses dictated by your genetics and your metabolism/physicality (your organism).

phsyxx said:

All you are is a series of stimulus responses dictated by your genetics and your metabolism/physicality (your organism).

Click to expand...

This is a proposition. You have chosen to believe that it is true. You could have chosen not to believe it. You exercised free will.

exploring said:

This is a proposition. You have chosen to believe that it is true. You could have chosen not to believe it. You exercised free will.

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And you have been determined to believe in free will.

quatona said:

And you have been determined to believe in free will.

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For "proposition, substitute "expression of belief"

You can believe in determinism only if you believe in an objective, disembodied, external world. From the point of view that we perceive the world from, there is no evidence to suggest that there is one, apart from intuition. But there is a thing that can choose whether or not to believe in things: otherwise there would be no propositions (expressions of belief). So if there is an expression, there must be a believer, who must have been able to not believe if he had so chosen.

quatona said:

And you have been determined to believe in free will.

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I believe in free will myself, but it doesn't mix well with the belief in God. In other words I believe it makes sense that we all have free will, but it doesn't make sense to believe it was God who gave us this free will.

Simply because it would then demonstrate that we have a God that toys with his own creation by giving us this wonderful thing only to condemn over half of us for using it in ways that he didn't intend.

Wouldn't this therefore prove that the belief in the biblical God would also show you don't really have your free will do to the punishment that can go hand in hand with actually using it?

We are not perfect plus we have free will. A mix that will obviously lead many into alternate beliefs, lifestyles, and personality traits.
Things that God **** well knows, and has known for eons. With this knowledge at hand why is there a hell? This place of punishment, Or if you believe in eternal death in place of a fiery hell, still why are a handful of us rewarded for the choices they as individuals made with there free will as opposed to others? This is why Christianity makes no sense to me, as well as most other religions. They divide us into superficial groups of good and evil, but there really is no evil. We are all a result of the world we are placed into and every case is different.

We are
50% genetics and the other 50% is the external experiences we encounter as we grow that turn us into individuals. This is why identical twins develop separate personality traits and abilities, because they experience the world in different ways. God, "supposing God exist" by common belief had 100% control over both of these factors. In that he gave us our genetics at birth, and that he created the world that we are to grow and develop in. So the idea that god did not intend for man to sin from the get go can be thrown right out the window with all this in mind.

I don't know why anyone would assume this but I have heard from some that we are responsible for our sinful actions. Wrong! The cause for anything and everything can be traced right back to the source
"The Creator" So God is in fact responsible for us, yet the bible suggest we are responsible for our own fate. This is very true in ones life, we are in fact partially responsible for how great our lives turn out here on earth, but beyond that it would be God who would be responsible for protecting our eternal fate, As there could be no sense in the punishment of a human for proving to be humane.

So, do we have free will? Yes, I do believe we have some control over the outcome of our lives.

Is there a God that made this possible? No

Unless of course your religion abandons the idea of hell or eternal death all together.

Otherwise you believe in a God of ignorance and wrath. One who acts along the lines of quote'

""Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned"" John 15:1-17

Wow, what a God.

Sorry, I do tend to get worked up with these matters but where is the sense in all this?

mikenet2006 said:

Sorry, I do tend to get worked up with these matters but where is the sense in all this?

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You're catching on.

Illuminatus said:

You're catching on.

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Yea, this after giving the idea over five years of my life. I wasn't a Christian per-say but I was interested in God enough to go to church regularly and read much of the bible. The funny thing is that it wasn't lack of proof that drew me away. I found it in my heart one day that the story just wasn't genuine. Even with all the variations between Baptist, catholic, methodist, and Jehovah's, among others. They all have one thing in common "A God who will reward you with his love and protection in the long term only if you behave in a certain manner"

For lack of a better example
Thats the equivalent of having a soul mate who loves you only until you get called to duty and she starts screwing your best friend.

For "proposition, substitute "expression of belief"

You can believe in determinism only if you believe in an objective, disembodied, external world. From the point of view that we perceive the world from, there is no evidence to suggest that there is one, apart from intuition. But there is a thing that can choose whether or not to believe in things: otherwise there would be no propositions (expressions of belief). So if there is an expression, there must be a believer, who must have been able to not believe if he had so chosen.

Click to expand...

Erm...yeah, to be honest with you, I don't particularly like the idea of determinism....you say, "you have decided to believe in determinism, an exercise in free will"...no.

If I had grown up and had been influenced by an entirely different set of beliefs, then I would believe something else.
Now, I want to give you a proposition which is:
All you are (beliefs etc) is a regurgitation of that which surrounds you and infiltrates your conciousness.
Your genetics (which is a regurgitation of your parents), will determine whether or not you agree with that statement.