All I want is a proof for free will. Please provide me a logical proof of free will and the existence of an omniscient being (where omniscient means "having all knowledge"). I don't need you to make the proof, just provide it.
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I need a proof for free will.
- Thread starter Danhalen
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That terribly complicated.
Read into Phenomenology, i would particularly recomend "Introduction to Phenomenology" by Robert Sokolowski
Read into Phenomenology, i would particularly recomend "Introduction to Phenomenology" by Robert Sokolowski
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Danhalen said:
Perhapse,(what do you mean by "proof")
It's a preaty wide subject, i do know that Sartre managed to use phenomenology to justify his beleif in free will despite his atheism.
Phenomenology deals with "Intentionality" and deals with the concept of the mind.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail because i'm just begining to realy study the field(i've had finals to study for, so i didn't have a lot of free time as i wanted to pass my 11th grade EOCs').
But the book i recomended immediatly adreases our assumption of the validity of our perception of an "objective reality" with the egotistical deleima, and that seems inevitiably tied to free will, but dosen't go into extravigant detail.
I can't provide some cute little A=B so therefore we have free will, but i beleive that if you want an answer Phenomenology is a good place to start.
I noticed you quoted Nietzsche, are you a Nietzschian? because i believe he denied free.
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The cute syllogism is what I'm looking for. I don't want to justify a concept through a philsophical point of view. I want to see a coherent philosophical argument laid out in a logical proof.RatzingerRocks said:
I'm do not apdot Nietzsche's point of view. I like some of his philosophies, but not all. He does seem to embrace free will, after all, he is an existentialist.
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I know Nietzsche was an existentalist, and his whole will to power concept, however i do beleive he denied free will, perhapse i'm mistaken, however i severly doubt it.
I did not say that phenomenology was a nice little philosophical outlook, from which you derive free will. I mean study phenomenology and it's approaches to intentionality, and other facinating aspects of it, and see if it's helpfull, i imagain it will be, however i'm in the 11th grade, so i haven't had time to read every thing on phenomenology out there, however like i said, i would not be suprised if proof for free will lay there.
Are you an atheist or a beleiver?
If you an atheist, then read Sartre(In fact his whole atheism was built upon the concept of metaphysical freedom, and a world of infinite responsibilities), he justafied free will with phenomenology, if you beleive in God and the soul, then you do not beleive that you are puerly metter, and you have no need to be concerned with determinism and classical physics, as it relates to free will
I did not say that phenomenology was a nice little philosophical outlook, from which you derive free will. I mean study phenomenology and it's approaches to intentionality, and other facinating aspects of it, and see if it's helpfull, i imagain it will be, however i'm in the 11th grade, so i haven't had time to read every thing on phenomenology out there, however like i said, i would not be suprised if proof for free will lay there.
Are you an atheist or a beleiver?
If you an atheist, then read Sartre(In fact his whole atheism was built upon the concept of metaphysical freedom, and a world of infinite responsibilities), he justafied free will with phenomenology, if you beleive in God and the soul, then you do not beleive that you are puerly metter, and you have no need to be concerned with determinism and classical physics, as it relates to free will
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Eudaimonist
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The best "proof" of free will is in the experience of living a human life. I'm not sure that one can do much better than this, at least at this time. I personally lean towards the view that there is at least a limited sort of free will. I don't have an ineluctable deductive argument to "prove" this, if that's what you are looking for, though maybe I could dig up a link or two that inductively supports a freewill position.
No one has "proved" that we have fully deterministic brains (no, I don't think that brain science has come even close to showing that this must be so), and I don't think that either freewill or determinism/compatibilism is a "default position" (as atheism might be on the god issue), so I think that one could rationally take either view.
eudaimonia,
Mark
No one has "proved" that we have fully deterministic brains (no, I don't think that brain science has come even close to showing that this must be so), and I don't think that either freewill or determinism/compatibilism is a "default position" (as atheism might be on the god issue), so I think that one could rationally take either view.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Parkspapercut
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Read up on the theodicies of Augustine and Irenaeus, they try and defend free will in te face of evil. Also the Free Will Defence as a follow up.
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Asimov is quite right. Whatever "free will" is, if it does exist, is defined in the mind of the person making the statement I have got..., I have not got...free will.
From my point of view, everything I do is pretty much based on my acquired knowledge and experience of what has gone before. When I get paid, I decide that I will pay the rent, bills, and buy food rather than blow the lot on a new sound system. Experience has taught me that it is better living in a house and eating regularly than being outside and starving.
Am a using "free will" or am I just using my life experience in making this decision?
This argument could "logically" (whatever that means) be extended to any event which occurs, down to turning on my PC or changing channels on the TV. I turn the TV on, because experience, and research into the TV guide has told me that my favourite TV show is about to start.
It is possible to extrapolate this argument back to everything I have experienced in my life, and that everything I do is a reaction based on my concious, or many times, unconsious memory that it is better in a given situation to do "a" rather than "b".
Is this free will? Or is it something else? I honestly don't know. Again, it depends on what you mean by "free will"
Norm
From my point of view, everything I do is pretty much based on my acquired knowledge and experience of what has gone before. When I get paid, I decide that I will pay the rent, bills, and buy food rather than blow the lot on a new sound system. Experience has taught me that it is better living in a house and eating regularly than being outside and starving.
Am a using "free will" or am I just using my life experience in making this decision?
This argument could "logically" (whatever that means) be extended to any event which occurs, down to turning on my PC or changing channels on the TV. I turn the TV on, because experience, and research into the TV guide has told me that my favourite TV show is about to start.
It is possible to extrapolate this argument back to everything I have experienced in my life, and that everything I do is a reaction based on my concious, or many times, unconsious memory that it is better in a given situation to do "a" rather than "b".
Is this free will? Or is it something else? I honestly don't know. Again, it depends on what you mean by "free will"
Norm
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Thus Spoke Zarathustra implies, quite strongly, that Nietzsche supports the concept of free will.RatzingerRocks said:
As far as I can tell, phenomenology is an epistemological outlook. I'm sure there are ways to defend free will from an epistemic stance, but I'm not sure epistemology is the way to provide proof of such a concept.
You seem to have a very good grasp of philosophy for someone in the eleventh grade (greater than most people my age). I appreciate your input, but I am looking for a proof, not a suggestion.
I am an atheist. The icon by my user name indicates this. I suppose now is a good time to welcome you to the forums. If you have further questions concerning this place, do not hesitate to ask.
How does a belief in deities and soul exempt someone from the classical understanding of modern physics?
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It is not a concept I find convincing. I have no definition of free will. That is for those who offer a proof of it.Asimov said:
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I believe there is a better argument for free will to be found in the absence of an omniscient being. However, I am looking for a proof of free will which includes the existence of such a being (where omniscience is defined as "having all knowledge"). I don't believe you are of the mindset such a being exists.Eudaimonist said:
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I don't want homework. I want a proof or a link to a proof which shows the compatibility of free will and the existence of an omniscient being. I've looked for such a proof, but I have found none.Parkspapercut said:
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I have left the definition of free will up to those who would defend it. The only stipulation I have added is the definition of omniscience must be "having all knowledge."fromdownunder said:
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I looked it up quickly, and i didn't find anything specifially, however woulden't his notion of eternal reccurance necessairly imply determinism?
I'm not positive, i've never been a fan of Nietzsche, i agrea with Tolstoy.
"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal"-Leo Tolstoy
I'm not positive, i've never been a fan of Nietzsche, i agrea with Tolstoy.
"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal"-Leo Tolstoy
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Just so you know, this Google search contains links supporting both of our points of view. I guess the question is far from settled.
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Danhalen said:
1)I think that Phenomenologies use of supporting the existance of a non physical mind greatly supports free will, but like i said i haven't read enough to tell you difinitively.
2)What icon? I'm new so there's quite a bit i don't know
3)I beleive the rational goes that if we are puerly matter, then like all other matter(on the Macro level) we have no free will, but are simply in an extreamly complex cause-effect relationship of the world, but if we have a sould and our mind is non physical then we are not puerly governed by the law of physics, and thus we have free will.
4)Woulden't Nietzschies' beleif of the eternal recurranc necessairly point to determinism?(Thats not retorical, i realy am not sure, i don't like Nietzschi so i've only read a bit of him)
5)I just read down, and i'm confused.
Are you questioning free will in general, or just free will with God?, because free will and Gods' omniscience is easy enough to answer.
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I am only questioning free will with an omniscient being. If it's easy for you to demonstrate, please do.RatzingerRocks said:
I'd like to take more time to answer your questions, but I have to get to work in 25 minutes
. Anyway, I hope you plan on going into philosophy when you leave high school. I think you have demonstrated a good mind for this.
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