I just can't understand this...

[2272]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin? If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering? If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture? Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what? If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

 

[StormHawk]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins? ...

If God just forgave sin, man would sin all the more!
God wanted to get sin out of the way.
That's why Jesus took on flesh (our form), took the condemnation (judgement) that sin harms in all ways & separates from God so that we could reject relying on it and instead receive His Spirit, which the disciples did at Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 33, see also John 3:8).

This new Life is better, so it gives people power over sin.

If you receive this, you will begin to understand salvation.
Why not just come to one meeting and judge for yourself whether it makes a difference to people.

 

[Faulty]

Our sin is a legal debt with God, and requires a legal solution.

If there were a judge sitting on the bench and every criminal brought before him, regardless of if he were a murderer, thief, rapist, etc, and told them "I forgive you of your crime, you are free", would that judge be thought of as a righteous and just judge? Of course not.

Our problem is that God is a righteous and just judge and will not let the guilty go free.

Don't be so quick to call it sadistic torture. This was the method that God ordained before the creation of the world in order to redeem man, and Jesus did what He did willfully and joyfully. This was their plan from the beginning.

It was necessary, not for the sake of God, but for our sake to know how seriously we are in trouble. We should be looking at what Jesus went through and be rightfully thinking, "that's supposed to be me, but He's taken my place and took my legal debt and satistied it."

That's exactly what He did on that cross...

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:13-14
​

 

[2272]

Did God know everything that would ever happen as a result of his creation of the universe? If so, why did he create it knowing full well that some of his beloved creation would end up in his preplanned place of eternal torment? I understand the concept of free will, but I don't understand why an all good God would create beings that he knew he would end up torturing endlessly, whether it was the free choice of those beings or not. Why infinite punishment for finite crimes? Why punish Jesus for the sins of others? If Jesus and God are one is that punishment not masochistic? Earthly judges do not have the foreknowledge God does about the criminals they punish. That analogy does not seem to be accurate.

 

[seayhere]

Jesus was the true Passover Lamb. If you look back to when Abraham was asked to sacrifice Jacob and then was stopped. If you read closely, God said, "I will supply the Lamb" He did supply a replacement Lamb right then, but really he was referring to Jesus. God came down himself because he loved us so much and sacrificed himself so we could see how much he loved us. He's showing the world what true love is and we have a choice between him and his love and evil. Remember though that Jesus didn't come just to die on the cross, in reading the Gospels he also tells us how we ought to live.

 

[2272]

Jesus was the true Passover Lamb. If you look back to when Abraham was asked to sacrifice Jacob and then was stopped. If you read closely, God said, "I will supply the Lamb" He did supply a replacement Lamb right then, but really he was referring to Jesus. God came down himself because he loved us so much and sacrificed himself so we could see how much he loved us. He's showing the world what true love is and we have a choice between him and his love and evil. Remember though that Jesus didn't come just to die on the cross, in reading the Gospels he also tells us how we ought to live.[/QUO

Thank you for your reply but it does not really answer my questions.

 

[StormHawk]

... Why infinite punishment for finite crimes?

Indeed, etrenal torment is a false doctrrine based on mis-understanding of certain verses and ignorance of others.
The question is moot.

Why punish Jesus for the sins of others?

Jesus "became sin for us", without his new life we are all left "in the flesh", ex-communicated from "The Tree of Life", not what God wants, so, God, like a good father, made it possible for us to get back to him and walk with him, by relying on His Spirit which we need to receive, not our own efforts to make ourselves right.
If Jesus and God are one is that punishment not masochistic?
Masochists are those that ignore God's offer, God's power over sin, and carry on on sin, hurting themselves and others - is that you or will you repent and accept your need for God's Spirit within, like all the disciples did - Acts 2:4, 33-39.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Did God know everything that would ever happen as a result of his creation of the universe? If so, why did he create it knowing full well that some of his beloved creation would end up in his preplanned place of eternal torment? I understand the concept of free will, but I don't understand why an all good God would create beings that he knew he would end up torturing endlessly, whether it was the free choice of those beings or not. Why infinite punishment for finite crimes? Why punish Jesus for the sins of others? If Jesus and God are one is that punishment not masochistic? Earthly judges do not have the foreknowledge God does about the criminals they punish. That analogy does not seem to be accurate.

Eternal torment is not necessarily true, you may want to research that some more. Anyhow, the answer is God created creation for his glory. God chose to save some to his glory, and chose to not save some, to his glory. God created because he wanted to, He created the plan of salvation BEFORE creating the world, because that's what He wanted to do. It doesn't make sense to us, because we not God.

 

[ElijahW]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this?

Throw out the anthropomorphic superpower genie understanding of God first. If the difficulty is how a super being allows anything instead of using his super power then the only answer is that your understanding of God needs to be worked on first.

If you get past the superstitious understanding of God, then Jesus’ sacrifice is about ideological warfare, not appeasing or altering the emotional state of God towards us or humanity as a whole. We are an intelligent animal, meaning that we respond and act according to ideas we are taught from those who came before us. Not all of these ideas are produced by reason or are correct/beneficial, and this is what it means to be in sin or have a sinful nature.

The idea of establishing a correct/beneficial society has been thought on and attempted by both the Greeks and the Jews, with both coming up short in that the leadership always ends up corrupt. This is where Jesus coming in as the awaited ideal king means that the ideal kingdom is now at hand since he arrived. What makes him ideal isn’t that he is a great military leader but that he is reversing the order of authority so that the king serves the people and dies for them.

Now his death not only provides a new kind of example of leader for the people to worship, nor does is it only lead to an ideal kingdom, but that ideal kingdom is supposed to lead to us overcoming dying and then achieving the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection is how your sins are forgiven by the act of Jesus’ sacrifice, not by God simply changing his opinion of people.

 

[oi_antz]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin? If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering? If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture? Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what? If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

You are not understanding that Jesus has the power to forgive sin:

Matthew 9:1-7

New Living Translation (NLT)

Jesus Heals a Paralyzed Man

9 Jesus climbed into a boat and went back across the lake to his own town. 2 Some people brought to him a paralyzed man on a mat. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “Be encouraged, my child! Your sins are forgiven.”
3 But some of the teachers of religious law said to themselves, “That’s blasphemy! Does he think he’s God?”
4 Jesus knew[a] what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why do you have such evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Is it easier to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Stand up and walk’? 6 So I will prove to you that the Son of Man[b] has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!”
7 And the man jumped up and went home!

 

[oi_antz]

Did God know everything that would ever happen as a result of his creation of the universe? If so, why did he create it knowing full well that some of his beloved creation would end up in his preplanned place of eternal torment? I understand the concept of free will, but I don't understand why an all good God would create beings that he knew he would end up torturing endlessly, whether it was the free choice of those beings or not. Why infinite punishment for finite crimes? Why punish Jesus for the sins of others? If Jesus and God are one is that punishment not masochistic? Earthly judges do not have the foreknowledge God does about the criminals they punish. That analogy does not seem to be accurate.

I think you have listened to too much hear-say. A common understanding of the lake of fire is eternal destruction. The appointed punishment is death. No more consciousness, not torture. That is the second death.

Revelation 20:14

14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

There is an exception for those who worshiped the beast:

Revelation 20:10
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice in these verses, one describes "eternal torment" and the other "second death". I don't read them as the same thing.

Anyway, I am stabbing the dark, could you quote the scriptures that you have a problem with?

 

[bling]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin? If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering? If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture? Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what? If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

You have asked the right questions and have been given some wrong answers so please read the following:

The most popular explanation of atonement seems to be penal substitution (PS), but there are lots of issues:

PS is the whipping boy scenario which is not fair or just by human standards even if the innocent is willing, so why would God give us a different standard and say His is perfect?

PS makes God out to have the problem needing something in order to forgive people.

PS has God responsible/cause for the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ.

PS loses all the benefit that comes from punishing the guilty


If God is Love, how could God have a problem forgiving people? The reason given for “penal substitution” is God cannot forgive us without Jesus being our substitute, but that makes God out to having a problem, lacking in Love someway, and being almost blood thirsty.

What is the relationship between “forgiveness” and punishment for a transgression?

Would the perfect parent (the one you would like to be and be like God) see to the punishment of his/her children in order to have the Love to forgive those children?

The best parent does not “punish” (discipline) their children in order for the parent to have the love to forgive, they punish (discipline with time out or something) their children for the benefit that punishment provides?

God does not have a “problem” forgiving us, but we need to be punished somehow in order to obtain the benefits from being disciplined. So God somehow need to see to our discipline for our transgressions without killing us and yet be fair, just and show us His concern/Love.

What are the “benefits” to being fairly punished (disciplined) for our transgressions?

Deterrent

It places the value on the transgression (the greater the punishment the bigger the transgression)

It shows fairness and justice

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.

Let me ask you a few questions:


1. What would be harder on you, than being unjustly tortured?

2. What would be harder on you than having your innocent young child unjustly tortured?

3. What would be harder on you than having your innocent young child unjustly tortured for a crime you committed and deserved the torture?

4. How hard was it on God the Father to watch His innocent son (Christ) being tortured, humiliated and murdered when God could stop it at any time? (as compared to Christ going through it himself and compared to you?)

5. If one mature adult person, even today, had been able to fulfill their earthly objective without the need to sin (thus deserving of salvation) would Christ have need to go to the cross? In other words if I had not sinned then Christ would not have had to go to the cross for “me”, and if not for me than others could do the same, but I did sin, so Christ going to the cross is my fault, since I could have stopped it by not sinning? I am trying to establish my personal relationship to Christ going to the cross?

6. When Christ “asks” and thus tells us there is “no other way”, I could have provided that “other way” if I had not sinned? I thus personally become the reason Christ went to the cross?

7. Christ is not standing in for me, but Christ is going to the cross because I did not keep from sinning, It is my fault Christ is allowing Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, so I can personally be tortured for my sinning, not physically tortured like He was, but to tortured similar to the torture God went through watching His Son.

8. As with those in the crowd (Act 2:37) I should experience a death blow to my heart from realizing what I have done, fully coming to the realization that my greatest “Love” has undergone torture, humiliation and murder, because of my sinning. Can we also say to the degree I “Love” Christ will be the degree to which I suffer and could that suffering be as great as His suffering?

9. The realization of what I cause Christ to willingly do for me on the cross is debilitating and makes me want to die, but there is also unbelievable Love shown from both God the Father and Christ that is uplifting and makes me want to live for them.

10. We also see how the cross does not work for the nonbeliever, since they would not experience any punishment in this life from Christ going to the cross. Their fair/just punishment will thus come later with hell. This explains how Christ going to the cross can be both for everyone and yet not everyone.

11. The bottom line is: God sees to the fair punishment of the guilty, we receive all the benefits of being punished, we realize what a huge debt sin has created and thus when God does forgive us; we will Love much automatically, since Christ has taught us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”. That “Love” is what we are after.

12. If you do not experience the “punishment” for your transgressions it is hard to get the complete feeling you have truly been forgiven (like a child that has not been punished for a transgression).

 

[Mediaeval]

2272,

to follow up on some of what bling said, Christ's self-sacrifice is not about God's supposed need to be placated by torture. On the contrary, God is willing to forgive freely. See the parable in Matthew 18 about the huge debtor. Rather, the problem to be solved is ours, mankind's. We need a renewal of heart so that we can not only accept God's love and forgiveness but also love and forgive in return. In short, Jesus Christ offered His life so that we might have new life in us and have it abundantly. He offers this life freely to all who thirst for it.

 

[razeontherock]

Did God know everything that would ever happen as a result of his creation of the universe? If so, why did he create it

Welcome to CF! You have good, legitimate questions. I don't find the answers you've been given entirely satisfying. I do hope you've gotten some direction from them, but if you don't find them entirely satisfying either, don't be discouraged.

The answer to your questions I snipped here, is one word: "Love." Please ponder this much, and consider how great the concept must actually be, from His POV. Now compare this to the size of the known Universe, maybe via a youtube clip or two, and grapple with that little L word some more ...

If Jesus and God are one is that punishment not masochistic?

He is being responsible. Loving Dads are like that

Perhaps for you, the first step of Faith is to realize that God did know all this in advance - and made provision for all our needs, Himself. Please compare this to 1 John 1:9, especially as it pertains to the word "just"

 

[Maranatha27]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin? If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering? If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture? Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what? If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

Hi, your question is really complex. As a christian I will try to contribute to what other have stated.

It started in the Garden of Eden when the first man Adam choose to follow his wife in eatting from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbid them. Here is where the Bible states that sin entered mankind.

Now they were ashamed of there nakedness and hid from God. God keeping a way open to Himself shed the blood of an animal an made skins for them.

Next we see Cain and Abel, Cain brought the works of his own hand, while Able brought the firstlings of the flock. Abels gift was acceptable while Cains was rejected.

In Leviticus we learn that the life of the flesh is in the blood. We see in the tabernacle and temple sacrifices that the blood of these animals "covered" the sin of the transgressor. A lamb or a goat was brought and the guilty party placed their hands on the head of the animal and spoke their transgression over the animal, the animal was slain and atonement was made.

This all forshadowed the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, each of the different types of sacrifices spoke of Him in specific ways.

Early on in the Bible we see that it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul, we can also see the promised Seed presented very early in the Garden. In Genesis 3:15 Christ is spoken of as the seed that will destroy the serpent, the Devil

This is really the central theme of the Bible. The promise of the seed is made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Then it is later Confimed to David's line in 2 Sam. 7. The Seed comes from this line through Mary when the Holy Spirit concieved in her womb. Josheph who was the (step) father is also in the line of David in the Line of kings giving Christ the right to the throne in Israel.

Animal Sacrifices "covered" But Christs Blood is altogether different, when John saw Him he said:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

I believe that the reason why God choose to be punished in the way that he was was for the reason of showing us that sin ultimately hurts God. God is not unaffected by sin, sin actually hurts God. He chose to use a human form of suffering that we could understand. If he as God, just said "I am suffering", we could not relate to it. But if we see a fellow man punished greatly we can understand the torment God is suffering.

 

[aiki]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin?

God can't "simply forgive sin." His just and holy nature require that sin be judged and punished. God ordained right from the beginning of Creation that certain laws both physical and spiritual should order Creation. One of those spiritual laws is that sin always produces death and corruption. Another is that "only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sin." Taken all together these facts lead us to the cross, not the "elaborate game" you think God is playing.

If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering?

What does God's supreme power have to do with our suffering? We cause our own suffering, not God. He does not negate the suffering sin causes in the world (although many times He protects us from it) because doing so would be making an accommodation of, and for, sin, which a holy God cannot do.

If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture?

Sadistic torture? What are you talking about? God offers us love, mercy, grace and an eternity with Him on one hand and the eternal judgment and punishment of our sin on the other. I don't see any "sadistic torture" in this...

Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what?

The only thing to be satisfied was God's own holy, just nature.

If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

See above.

Selah.

 

[OliverC]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus had to die for our sins?
Why would God require this? Why the elaborate game if he could
simply forgive all sin? If God is truly all powerful what was
the need for all the suffering? If there was no other force
to placate, why all the sadistic torture? Is there another
force that needed to be satisfied in order for God to forgive
sin? If so, what? If not, why the horrific torture of Jesus?
Surely an omnibonevelent, omnipotent God would not
require such things just for the heck of it. What am I not
understanding?

I am going to stick my neck out with a reply (I am still learning)... I see you are an atheist, so your question may well be based on the idea that "Jesus is a man". However some Christians read "Jesus = God".

So God descended for us to show us the way. God was born in a manger. God cured the ill, taught righteousness and God allowed Himself to be tortured and hung on a Cross.

Who really suffered? God. So it wasn't cruel, it was an act of 'cruelty' for mankind to witness and pitty.
Why did God do this? To send a powerful message, a wake up call. A new covenant. A way out for those who listen (and that includes me and you now).

Man could not have done it himself, because he was stuck, like an old record on a scratch, repeating the same sins over and over in the name of pleasure. So divine intervention was a remedy and it came from God's love and compassion - like a hand from above to nudge the needle back into a better track.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

I have been thinking about my previous post, that idea may not be true, as there is not a lot of scriptural evidence for it. Maybe sin effects God, maybe it does not. Who really knows. Although God can be grieved by sin, note:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

But as for the idea I presented it may not be true.