I have trouble reading much of the old testament

[Jamdoc]

I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

 

[Sabertooth]

God's Judgment is dispassionate. Knowing this, He clearly takes steps to avoid that as often as possible. Because Rahab believed, she and her whole family were spared.

Jonah preached that God was going to destroy Nineveh. Without instruction, Nineveh repented and God withheld judgement. Jonah was moping about God not following through.

"But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, 'Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!'

4 Then the Lord said, 'Is it right for you to be angry?'

5 So Jonah went out of the city and sat on the east side of the city. There he made himself a shelter and sat under it in the shade, till he might see what would become of the city. 6 And the Lord God prepared a plant and made it come up over Jonah, that it might be shade for his head to deliver him from his misery. So Jonah was very grateful for the plant. 7 But as morning dawned the next day God prepared a worm, and it so damaged the plant that it withered. 8 And it happened, when the sun arose, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat on Jonah’s head, so that he grew faint. Then he wished death for himself, and said, 'It is better for me to die than to live.'

9 Then God said to Jonah, 'Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?'

And he said, 'It is right for me to be angry, even to death!'

10 But the Lord said, 'You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. 11 And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?' ” Jonah 4 NKJV

God knows that is the fate of those who meet Him unprepared, too. Though He does not apologize for His Judgment, He prefers that we meet Him on much better terms.

That is why He sent Jesus as a means for Amnesty.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In the resurrection perhaps God will reveal to people why he had them killed.

 

[hedrick]

Fortunately, historians (other than evangelical Christian historians) will tell you that it's unlikely that part of the OT is historically accurate, although it's worrisome that the authors apparently thought that's the kind of behavior God would want.

Personally I think what you see in the Bible is people learning over time what God actually wants. The prophets' ideals were for Israel to inspire the nations to worship their God, and of course Jesus certainly never suggested we should kill anyone.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

We must remember that much of the narrative of the Old Testament is Jewish history, and therefore not doctrinal. Because it is a history, it shows the good, bad, and the ugly.

Also, it is a mistake to view events in the ancient history of Israel with our 21st Century mind. We don't really know how many events were what God actually wanted, or whether He permitted them because He has given people free will to make their own decisions. God is not a micro-manager, therefore we have to look at the big picture when it comes to the development of God's plan of salvation through the Old Testament.

 

[Jamdoc]

We must remember that much of the narrative of the Old Testament is Jewish history, and therefore not doctrinal. Because it is a history, it shows the good, bad, and the ugly.

Also, it is a mistake to view events in the ancient history of Israel with our 21st Century mind. We don't really know how many events were what God actually wanted, or whether He permitted them because He has given people free will to make their own decisions. God is not a micro-manager, therefore we have to look at the big picture when it comes to the development of God's plan of salvation through the Old Testament.

Well for the genocide that may be the case but for the punishment of Achan
Joshua 7:15
"all that he hath"
Joshua 7:24-25
and they considered the children not their own people, but rather just possessions of Achan, and stoned them to death and burned their bodies.
God never admonished them for doing that, so was it righteous?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well for the genocide that may be the case but for the punishment of Achan
Joshua 7:15
"all that he hath"
Joshua 7:24-25
and they considered the children not their own people, but rather just possessions of Achan, and stoned them to death and burned their bodies.
God never admonished them for doing that, so was it righteous?

Well, knowing that because of Adam's rebellion against God in which he lost the godly nature that he had, and gained a nature that rebels against God, which nature is passed on to all his descendants, every human being is deserving of hell, and God would be totally righteous if He allowed every person to end up there. And it is only by His unmerited grace that some of us have avoided that penalty through Christ. So, we are the last people to be able to judge God for the decisions He makes.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, knowing that because of Adam's rebellion against God in which he lost the godly nature that he had, and gained a nature that rebels against God, which nature is passed on to all his descendants, every human being is deserving of hell, and God would be totally righteous if He allowed every person to end up there. And it is only by His unmerited grace that some of us have avoided that penalty through Christ. So, we are the last people to be able to judge God for the decisions He makes.

I was going off your last post where I thought you were saying maybe it wasn't God wanting the young children killed, just something that the sons of Israel did on their own.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was going off your last post where I thought you were saying maybe it wasn't God wanting the young children killed, just something that the sons of Israel did on their own.

I read the story. There is no mention that the Lord instructed Joshua to stone Achan, his family, sheep and cattle. Joshua made that decision himself. The Lord may have turned from His anger if Achan alone had been stoned, or if he had repented and pleaded for mercy. We don't really know, because the account does not say whether Achan was given the opportunity to repent. Perhaps he should have owned up right at the start before being found out and that might have made the difference. However, it was a serious lesson for them and us, that when the Lord gives a command, then it should be obeyed, otherwise there are consequences, not only for us, both for others associated with us.

 

[Jamdoc]

I read the story. There is no mention that the Lord instructed Joshua to stone Achan, his family, sheep and cattle. Joshua made that decision himself. The Lord may have turned from His anger if Achan alone had been stoned, or if he had repented and pleaded for mercy. We don't really know, because the account does not say whether Achan was given the opportunity to repent. Perhaps he should have owned up right at the start before being found out and that might have made the difference. However, it was a serious lesson for them and us, that when the Lord gives a command, then it should be obeyed, otherwise there are consequences, not only for us, both for others associated with us.

He actually confessed to it immediately and told Joshua exactly what he'd stolen and exactly where he'd hidden it. So I guess there was no real chance at repentance to spare him or his family. It's a hard book to come to grips with because outside of the context of God commanding it, its obviously murder and genocide and wrong. If God commands it it's right.. but it still feels very callous that it extended all the way to small children.
I pray that the young children who did not know right from wrong yet are not eternally suffering for the sins of their forefathers.

 

[1213]

I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. ....

It would be nice to know what actually happened and why. I don’t know that well, but luckily I know these (hopefully not too many scriptures):

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it.
Matt. 16:25

In Biblical point of view this “life” is not all. And also, it seems everyone’s body dies once, not only those who are mentioned in the Bible. If we accuse God of killing, we could accuse Him for every death that happens, not only those that are mentioned in the Bible. However, God is also the one who has given life, so He has every right to decide how long it lasts. In the Bible eternal life is promised for righteous and I think that is good.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, if righteous person has died, I believe he is in eternal life with God. And if unrighteous has died, I think it is good, if he doesn’t live forever. In Biblical point of view, we should not fear death of the body, it is not the end.

 

[Jamdoc]

It can be righteous, but I don't have the perspective, maybe these children were all destined to be wicked, but the first thought to me is always that young children are innocent and have the potential to be good, so from only what information I know, it pains me that no mercy was shown, even to the children.

 

[DNB]

I read the story. There is no mention that the Lord instructed Joshua to stone Achan, his family, sheep and cattle. Joshua made that decision himself. The Lord may have turned from His anger if Achan alone had been stoned, or if he had repented and pleaded for mercy. We don't really know, because the account does not say whether Achan was given the opportunity to repent. Perhaps he should have owned up right at the start before being found out and that might have made the difference. However, it was a serious lesson for them and us, that when the Lord gives a command, then it should be obeyed, otherwise there are consequences, not only for us, both for others associated with us.

Sorry Oscarr, according to the NASB, God did command to destroy all that belonged to Achan. And from the context, it an easily be construed to mean blood relations, not just material objects (if it means material items at all?).

Joshua 7:14-15
7:14. 'In the morning then you shall come near by your tribes. And it shall be that the tribe which the LORD takes by lot shall come near by families, and the family which the LORD takes shall come near by households, and the household which the LORD takes shall come near man by man. 15. 'It shall be that the one who is taken with the things under the ban shall be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel.'"

 

[DNB]

It can be righteous, but I don't have the perspective, maybe these children were all destined to be wicked, but the first thought to me is always that young children are innocent and have the potential to be good, so from only what information I know, it pains me that no mercy was shown, even to the children.

Agreed Jamdoc, it is difficult to resolve in our minds, especially not knowing the complete grounds behind it.
As far as the Canaanites were concerned, their abominations would, without exception, make your hair stand on end, that you would ask, 'why did God wait so long?'. You said, this, you could possibly imagine and accept.

But, as for Achan's children, who were guilty simply by unvolitional association, I have no idea outside of speculation. Some think that children get a free pass into heaven, which I, to some extent, would not be surprised. Like you said, maybe they were destined for wickedness had God spared them? Sometimes God raises people up just to demonstrate his will and purposes?

Don't forget, innocent people and children die every day, even those just driving their family to Church who get hit by a drunk driver, or attacked by a Jihadist. These perceived injustices are very common. If, by chance, you have resolved those issue in your mind for whatever reason, would you relate the case of Achan and his family to be of the same divine allowance and prerogative? That is, having a deeper and justified significance that only Judgement Day will reveal, either because the Books will reveal the deepest secrets of each of us, for better or for worse, or the prize will be generous?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Fortunately, historians (other than evangelical Christian historians) will tell you that it's unlikely that part of the OT is historically accurate, although it's worrisome that the authors apparently thought that's the kind of behavior God would want.

Personally I think what you see in the Bible is people learning over time what God actually wants. The prophets' ideals were for Israel to inspire the nations to worship their God, and of course Jesus certainly never suggested we should kill anyone.

Jesus seemed to uphold the OT death penalty for dishonoring parents. He likely would have supported it for other offenses as well. (However the Jews weren't allowed to execute offenders, under Roman law.)

 

[Jamdoc]

Agreed Jamdoc, it is difficult to resolve in our minds, especially not knowing the complete grounds behind it.
As far as the Canaanites were concerned, their abominations would, without exception, make your hair stand on end, that you would ask, 'why did God wait so long?'. You said, this, you could possibly imagine and accept.

But, as for Achan's children, who were guilty simply by unvolitional association, I have no idea outside of speculation. Some think that children get a free pass into heaven, which I, to some extent, would not be surprised. Like you said, maybe they were destined for wickedness had God spared them? Sometimes God raises people up just to demonstrate his will and purposes?

Don't forget, innocent people and children die every day, even those just driving their family to Church who get hit by a drunk driver, or attacked by a Jihadist. These perceived injustices are very common. If, by chance, you have resolved those issue in your mind for whatever reason, would you relate the case of Achan and his family to be of the same divine allowance and prerogative? That is, having a deeper and justified significance that only Judgement Day will reveal, either because the Books will reveal the deepest secrets of each of us, for better or for worse, or the prize will be generous?

Well, bad things can happen to good people without intent I think what stands out for me is that God commanded it. I know it's the same God but after Joshua I went over to the Gospels, having read the Torah and Joshua before I felt I just needed something different in scripture (it's been a long time since I've read the entire bible and before I think I read NIV this time I'm reading KJV).. and it's mindblowing how much of a different person Jesus seems to be vs God the Father even though it's the same Godhead. Going from the rote strictness and severeness of Exodus and Leviticus, the eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth justice where Jesus.. "turn to him the other also".
I get a different feel from the new testament than the old as well. The old.. I always feel troubled, troubled by the brutality of some of it such as Joshua, and I always feel appalled at the sin being committed by some people, that is part of its purpose in a New Testament Christian's life I suppose, admonishment over their sins. Even those who were saints like Abraham and Jacob lying and deceiving..
But the new, when I read it, my head swims. No other way to describe it. It's a good feeling.

 

[Tolworth John]

The bottom line is no one deserves God's mercy.
The basic state of every living person is that of a sinner. A rebel against God and in that context even the death of a young sinner is just.

 

[DNB]

Well, bad things can happen to good people without intent I think what stands out for me is that God commanded it. I know it's the same God but after Joshua I went over to the Gospels, having read the Torah and Joshua before I felt I just needed something different in scripture (it's been a long time since I've read the entire bible and before I think I read NIV this time I'm reading KJV).. and it's mindblowing how much of a different person Jesus seems to be vs God the Father even though it's the same Godhead. Going from the rote strictness and severeness of Exodus and Leviticus, the eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth justice where Jesus.. "turn to him the other also".
I get a different feel from the new testament than the old as well. The old.. I always feel troubled, troubled by the brutality of some of it such as Joshua, and I always feel appalled at the sin being committed by some people, that is part of its purpose in a New Testament Christian's life I suppose, admonishment over their sins. Even those who were saints like Abraham and Jacob lying and deceiving..
But the new, when I read it, my head swims. No other way to describe it. It's a good feeling.

Agreed, and that's a common sentiment by millions of people, the dichotomy of attributes that God reveals about himself, between the two Testaments. Atheists like to point this out in order to undermine the soundness of Christian theology. And many have either rejected the Old Testament as a whole (Marcion), or have created a completely different religion to resolve such a conflict (gnostics).
Just saying, your regard for both Testaments is not uncommon or absurd.

But, to me, it's like Paul said, the OT was a schoolmaster, defining for us the wages of sin, and the demands of righteousness, and what everybody truly deserves. The patience that God has shown towards the 'fortunate', either individually or the era, is nothing but mercy and grace, not the norm.
Maybe Jamdoc, if you were to reflect for a moment exactly how much you love God and revere Jesus, you may begin to appreciate what we all truly deserve.
I know for sure, that my love for God and for Jesus is pathetic, ungrateful, defiant and contemptuous. And I do not believe that we have a fallen nature.
He should, strike me down right now, that's all I deserve!

 

[Hawkins]

It can be righteous, but I don't have the perspective, maybe these children were all destined to be wicked, but the first thought to me is always that young children are innocent and have the potential to be good, so from only what information I know, it pains me that no mercy was shown, even to the children.

I can give you the perspective. Humans count bodies but God counts souls. If the Canaanites are not eliminated, then 1) wars will continue generations after generations, more death tolls will be on both sides. 2) Israel will have to focus on wars instead of God. 3) the consequence is that God's message of salvation may not reach today's humans if either the wars go on (as manipulated by Satan), or the Jews are outnumbered and defeated by the Canaanites.

If children grow up, they will hold the same religion as every Canaanite and will wind up in hell. They die as children such that judgment won't fall upon them.

God endorse such a soul-saving "genocide", as that's how a people is needed to do the job. That's one of the reasons why Israel, as the only chosen people on earth, will have to do God's will in terms of saving human souls. This is a one time situation such that the Jews can grow firmly to carry forward God's plan, such that now you can see how the gospel can spread all over the world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

What if God’s plan was to kill them before they become old enough to be held accountable for their actions? Perhaps they were actually saved from what they would’ve become and the consequences. Just an idea.