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I have a question...

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happypeppie

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Now I don't want to stir up any debates or anything but I noticed something and I really want to know what this is all about.

Okay... so the other night when I was reading my Bible I noticed that there seemed to be a verse missing. It was Matthew 17:21. I thought maybe it was a misprint in the Bible I had but I checked a few others and none of them had that verse either. But on one website the King James Version had it. My question is, why is that verse missing? Is it that the people who made this version of the Bible don't know how to count or they left it out for a reason?

:scratch:
 

heymikey80

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happypeppie said:
Now I don't want to stir up any debates or anything but I noticed something and I really want to know what this is all about.

Okay... so the other night when I was reading my Bible I noticed that there seemed to be a verse missing. It was Matthew 17:21. I thought maybe it was a misprint in the Bible I had but I checked a few others and none of them had that verse either. But on one website the King James Version had it. My question is, why is that verse missing? Is it that the people who made this version of the Bible don't know how to count or they left it out for a reason?

:scratch:

The footnote in the NAS reads, "Early manuscripts do not contain this verse." This normally means that the verse is missing from manuscripts up to the fourth or fifth century, but appears in later manuscripts. If you want more information on what manuscripts it's missing from, I can probably dredge that up privately.

Its exclusion is a result of something called "Lower Critical Analysis".

'Hope it helps.
 
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Jesusong

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The following is from A Commentary on the Greek New Testament. This commentary explains the varitations found in the Greek Texts. It also mentions a parallel passage found in Mark's gospel where Jesus mentions prayer but not fasting.

Greek NT commentary said:
Since there is no satisfactory reason why the passage, if originally present in Matthew, should have been omitted in a wide variety of witnesses, and since copyists frequently inserted material derived from another Gospel, it appears that most manuscripts have been assimilated to the parallel in Mk 9.29.

Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. 1994. A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition; a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) . United Bible Societies: London; New York
 
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happypeppie

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I've been following another post. Read this one: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=21005761&postcount=49

Here's a quote:


Scholar in training said:
Indeed, copyists for both the Old and New Testaments worked painstakingly to ensure that they were transmitting the Scriptures accurately.
"(1) A synagogue roll must be written on the skins of clean animals, (2) prepared for particular use of the synagogue by a Jew. (3) These must be fastened together with strings taken from clean animals. (4) Every skin must contain a certain number of columns, equal throughout the entire codex. (5) The length of each column must not extend over less than 48 or more than 60 lines; and the breadth must consist of thirty letters. (6) The whole copy must be firstlined; and if three words be written without a line, it is worthless. (7) The ink should be black, neither red, green, nor any other colour, and be prepared according to a definite recipe. (8) An authentic copy must be examplar, from which the transcriber ought not in the least deviate. (9) No word or letter, not even a yod, must be written from memory, the scribe not having looked at the codex before him. . . . (10) Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread must intervene. (11) Between every new parashah, or section, the breadth of nine consonants; (12) between every book, three lines. (13) The fifth book of Moses must terminate exactly with a line; but the rest need not do so. (14) Besides this, the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, (15) wash his whole body, (16) not begin to write the name of God with a pen newly dipped in ink, (17) and should a king address him while writing that name he must take no notice of him."

from Harry L. Ropp's The Mormon Papers (InterVarsity Press, 1978), pp. 88-89. cited originally from Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Campus Crusade For Christ International, 1972), pp. 56-67.




Copyists were further encouraged to avoid error because any copies that did not follow the regulations were destroyed. This is also true of copies from the Medieval period.

So if this is true, why do some of the versions not have Matthew 17:21?? If there is that much preparation, and if one mistake is made the whole paper is destroyed and reprinted, why is there that verse missing. And if it was added in, why didn't they attach it to another verse instead of having the other versions missing a number???
 
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filosofer

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happypeppie said:
Here's a quote:

Just a note: that particular quote comes from a Mormon source.





So if this is true, why do some of the versions not have Matthew 17:21?? If there is that much preparation, and if one mistake is made the whole paper is destroyed and reprinted, why is there that verse missing. And if it was added in, why didn't they attach it to another verse instead of having the other versions missing a number???


The procedure that is described refers to the Jewish scribes copying the Hebrew Scriptures, not to NT textual transmission. Only later in NT transmission was greater care exercised.

In Christ's love,
filo
 
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Dmckay

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happypeppie said:
I've been following another post. Read this one: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=21005761&postcount=49

Here's a quote:




So if this is true, why do some of the versions not have Matthew 17:21?? If there is that much preparation, and if one mistake is made the whole paper is destroyed and reprinted, why is there that verse missing. And if it was added in, why didn't they attach it to another verse instead of having the other versions missing a number???
I spent several years studying for my major in textual criticism, and one thing that I know I can state as categorically true is that your citation is NOT true when it came to the copyists of the New Testament in the first several centuries of the Church. Many of the copyists couldn't even read what they were copying, they were acting more like an early copy machine. They would duplicate, to the best of their drawing ability, what they saw on the manuscripts that they were given to copy.

Many of the variant readings are the result of this simple truth. There weren't that many people around who could read and write to keep up with the demand for copies of the manuscripts. Later, as there were more copyists who were better, but not greatly trained, there were different variant readings that you can see creeping into the text. I can't recall the designation of the text, but there is one variant reading where the copyist wrote in the margin of the text he was working on, "My back is killing me." Later copies of this family text that complaint was included as part of the text for at least two generations before someone realized what was happening and dropped the phrase from the next copy.

Then there was the stage where the copyists began to take it upon themselves to add things to the text because they felt that something needed clarification or that something had been left out. This period gave us the greatest number of variant readings among the Greek manuscripts.

Lest you think that the Bible we have today is untrustworthy, consider this, with the more than 5,300 extant Greek manuscripts there are slightly more than a quarter million variant readings. Now I know that on the surface that would seem to say that, absolutely not, we don't have a trustworthy Bible. But, the majority of those variant readings are spelling errors in names. And a variant isn't counted just once, it is counted for each time it appears in later copies. So if Yakov made a mistake in spelling a word, and 2,300 copies were made with that same variant, that one variant counts as 2,301 variants. Makes that quarter million variants seem a lot smaller doesn't it.

Then we have the variants where a word may have been dropped accidently, or a word doubled, or even whole phrases copied in the wrong place because the copyist was getting tired and was working from the light of a candle in a windowless room. When you consider all of the variant readings 99% have absolutely NO effect upon the Bible at all. That final 1% that does have some significance still changes NOT ONE doctrine. The whole KJV vs. NASV vs. NKJV debate is a waste of time, because not one thing of any true importance has been affected by the variant readings. Almost all of the variants have been studied and explained as to how and when they actually entered the text families that they were found in.

In my own Church I preach and teach from The Biblia Hebraica or my UBS Greek Testament translating on the fly as I go. When I am teaching and preaching in another church, Bible College or Seminary I always ask what the preferred version of the majority of the listeners is, and I use that version. Why? Because the most important thing is that we are teaching the Truth of G-d and it is there in most of the Translations. I will even use the NIV if necessary, and it is the only modern translation that I have some serious issues with. But I don't really want to get into that here.
 
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Dmckay

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imind said:
so much for the 'bible not changing for 2000 years', huh? lets face it, it was put together by fallible men, and should be a stepping stone in our quest for christ, not an ending point.
You missed my point completely. Even with all the so-called variants there hasn't been any significant change at all in the New Testament with over 5,300 manuscripts. Virtually all of the variants are recognised, explained and documented. There are only a few differences in some passages as to how they were originally written. Those variants mostly say the same things, just in slightly different ways.

Rather your statement should be, "despite having been penned and copied by fallible men, still we have an accurate and reliable Bible upon which to depend completely today. Jesus is the Word made manifest in the flesh to reveal the Father to us. The New Testament is II Tim. 3:16-17 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Stepping stone? What more could you want?
 
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daveleau

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imind said:
so much for the 'bible not changing for 2000 years', huh? lets face it, it was put together by fallible men, and should be a stepping stone in our quest for christ, not an ending point.

This is a very dangerous assumption. No theology in Scripture is affected by the minor scribe issues. 99.95% of Scripture is perfect. There are small issues of translational problems, additions and subtractions. Scripture tells us that it is the Word of God. It tells us that it is Inspired by God and that God is perfect. The Holy Spirit has told Christians since the beginning that it is inerrant. This is the stance of all the significant theologians up to Descartes' bursting on the scene in philosophy. Who do we follow? The Holy Spirit or man's study of humanity?

The issue is finding what is inerrant. The autographs are believed to have fit the bill of Absolute Inerrancy (word for word perfect). The manuscripts are believed to be Fully Inerrant (highly accurate in wording and perfectly inerrant in theology). The view of Limited Inerrancy (only salvific passages are inerrant) or even more liberal ideas of complete fallibility of Scripture are not supported by any tradition or Scripture. These latter New Age views cause a erasure of Absolute Truth and put all knowledge of God under severe doubt. If Scripture is fallible, then how does one know they are saved, or how do they even know Christianity is the right religion? Everything either emanates from the person rather than Scripture, the Word of God, in these liberal views of Scripture or God has only spoken to people since the mid-1700's when the views of an errant Scripture became popular. I choose to believe the 3700+ years of Holy Spirit testimony rather than a minority that began 300 years ago.

I need to upload my writing on Inerrancy to my site, as it has good references supporting the above.
 
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thetruth1611

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imind said:
so much for the 'bible not changing for 2000 years', huh? lets face it, it was put together by fallible men, and should be a stepping stone in our quest for christ, not an ending point.
I beg to differ. God made a promise that He would preserve His word.

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tired in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalm 12:6-7

He promised to preserve it not preserve it for a certain amount of time but FOREVER! God was even more specific when he said:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

What this verse is saying is that not the smallest part of a letter (jot) or the smallest part of punctuation (tittle) will not fade away until everything has been fulfilled. And as far as I can tell, not everything in the Bible has been fulfilled.

And besides, if you say that God, the creator of the universe, the one who keeps all the stars and planets in their rotation, the one who knows the number of hairs on your head and the grains of sand on every beach, can't keep a pure Bible, then you're doubting the true authority and power of God. God can do anything! So therefore, he can keep a pure Bible forever!

And about the "fallibile men", 2 Peter 1:21 says,
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
If you look in most of the newer versions they take out the word "holy". Does this reflect the fact that the people who wrote their versions were not holy?

I believe that we do have a pure Bible from God that is in use today! It's commonly known as the King James Bible.
 
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mark kennedy

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I heard an interview with author of 'Misquoting Jesus' on NPR a couple of weeks ago. This is the link to the interview:

Bart Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus'

In the interview he claims that this passage did not appear in the manuscripts of the New Testament until the 14th century. He further states that there is a note in an earlier manuscript that it should be added in subsequent manuscripts. I have no idea what he is basing this on and I was curious if the resident Bible scholars could tell me where he is getting this.

"The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8:3-11)​
 
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wmssid

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In the compilation of Bible translations, companies of men are assigned to different sections of the Bible. It was discovered, after careful research, that one company had the section before the missing verse, and another company had the section after te missing verse; but neither company was assigned the missing verse.
Months of labor would be required to renumber the verses before and after the missing verse.
So then, there is "no missing verse."
Wish I could quote you the source of this opinion, but I do not recall it.
But I did not make it up.
wmssid
 
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calluna

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Now I don't want to stir up any debates or anything but I noticed something and I really want to know what this is all about.

Okay... so the other night when I was reading my Bible I noticed that there seemed to be a verse missing. It was Matthew 17:21. I thought maybe it was a misprint in the Bible I had but I checked a few others and none of them had that verse either. But on one website the King James Version had it. My question is, why is that verse missing? Is it that the people who made this version of the Bible don't know how to count or they left it out for a reason?

:scratch:
So why were the disciples unable to remove the demon? Because they had little faith? Or because they did not fast?
 
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