I have a question about scripture.

[Neostarwcc]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

I've always interpreted these verses to mean that the God that was revealed in the Old Testament was Jesus before he came to Earth in the flesh. This is further backed up with Jesus calling himself the great I AM in John 8:58.

But, there's also something else that's been bothering me. In 2 Samuel 7:10-16 It's clearly God the Father talking about Jesus and his return. How did Samuel know the words of the Father when nobody has seen him or heard his form? In Psalms 2:7 It's also clearly the Father speaking of Jesus. How did David know this verse if God the Father never spoke to him? I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God But, how can Jesus make statements of nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice when there are passages in the Bible that are clearly God the Father speaking?

 

[RDKirk]

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. -- John 16

From what I see here and other places such as Colossians 1, all forms of communication we can have with God are either physically through the Son or spiritually through the Holy Spirit. There is no way for humans to communicate with the Father directly as the Father, but one way or another, it's always been either through the Son or the Holy Spirit, and it was the same even prior to the physical incarnation of the Son.

 

[Neostarwcc]

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. -- John 16

From what I see here and other places such as Colossians 1, all forms of communication we can have with God are either physically through the Son or spiritually through the Holy Spirit. There is no way for humans to communicate with the Father directly as the Father, but one way or another, it's always been either through the Son or the Holy Spirit, and it was the same even prior to the physical incarnation of the Son.

So it was the Holy Spirit guiding David and Samuel? How can that be when they didn't know who or what God's Holy Spirit was. Oh wait, never mind in Genesis and other verses of the OT speak about the Holy Ghost and how God has a Spirit.

I figured there had to be an explanation because, why would Jesus bring 2 prophecies about himself and refer to himself in the 3rd person?

 

[Radagast]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

No, people did not see God as He is, although God may have appeared to them in some form (like a man, or a burning bush).

But, there's also something else that's been bothering me. In 2 Samuel 7:10-16 It's clearly God the Father talking about Jesus and his return.

Seems to me to be talking about Solomon and the building of the Temple.

In Psalms 2:7 It's also clearly the Father speaking of Jesus. How did David know this verse if God the Father never spoke to him?

What makes you think God never spoke to him?

how can Jesus make statements of nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice

Where does Jesus say that?

 

[Neostarwcc]

No, people did not see God as He is, although God may have appeared to them in some form (like a man, or a burning bush).



Seems to me to be talking about Solomon and the building of the Temple.



What makes you think God never spoke to him?



Where does Jesus say that?

Interesting. I guess some of what you said makes sense. Jesus says nobody has ever heard or seen the Father in John 5:37 and John 6:46 as I quoted in the top of my post.

 

[Ken Rank]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

I've always interpreted these verses to mean that the God that was revealed in the Old Testament was Jesus before he came to Earth in the flesh. This is further backed up with Jesus calling himself the great I AM in John 8:58.

But, there's also something else that's been bothering me. In 2 Samuel 7:10-16 It's clearly God the Father talking about Jesus and his return. How did Samuel know the words of the Father when nobody has seen him or heard his form? In Psalms 2:7 It's also clearly the Father speaking of Jesus. How did David know this verse if God the Father never spoke to him? I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God But, how can Jesus make statements of nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice when there are passages in the Bible that are clearly God the Father speaking?

Nobody has seen God in God's natural, i.e. a Spirit. He has manifested Himself in various ways...in the Son, or as a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night. In the burning bush, as the 4th man in the fire... even as one of the three men who came to Abraham (the other two were angels). But God had to take a form in order for this to be the case... manifest Himself... make Himself obvious so that we, in our limited manner, can talk, or otherwise interact. But as a Spirit... nobody has seen God.

 

[W2L]

So it was the Holy Spirit guiding David and Samuel? How can that be when they didn't know who or what God's Holy Spirit was. Oh wait, never mind in Genesis and other verses of the OT speak about the Holy Ghost and how God has a Spirit.

I figured there had to be an explanation because, why would Jesus bring 2 prophecies about himself and refer to himself in the 3rd person?

Psalms 51:11

 

[Radagast]

Interesting. I guess some of what you said makes sense. Jesus says nobody has ever heard or seen the Father in John 5:37 and John 6:46 as I quoted in the top of my post.

That's not actually what John 5:37 says.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Psalms 51:11

I wasn't aware that verse existed. Thanks! So David knew about the Holy Spirit and had the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit guided him into all truth and that's how David knew about Jesus and God the Father it isn't God the Father speaking but David being guided by the Holy Ghost? Making sure I understand right. I also forgot about this verse:

2 Peter 1:20-21

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

That kind of explains it too. Samuel was a prophet. David was a king but had God living inside of him.

 

[straykat]

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me. For he wrote about me."

The person that people saw in the OT was God the Word. "The Angel of the Lord" who appeared in bodily form at times... was pre-Incarnate Christ. The Angel of the Lord literally would speak in the first person as God too. He was no regular "angel". He said "I AM THAT I AM" in the Burning Bush. He was the same person Abraham tried to stop from destroying Sodom. And so on and so forth.

Indeed, no one has seen the Father. But they have seen the Son.

Or so this has been a long teaching, since patristic days. I can't see it any other way myself.

 

[W2L]

I wasn't aware that verse existed. Thanks! So David knew about the Holy Spirit and had the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit guided him into all truth and that's how David knew about Jesus and God the Father it isn't God the Father speaking but David being guided by the Holy Ghost? Making sure I understand right. I also forgot about this verse:

2 Peter 1:20-21

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

That kind of explains it too. Samuel was a prophet. David was a king but had God living inside of him.

I agree.

 

[Neostarwcc]

That's not actually what John 5:37 says.

Really? Care to explain what it really says then?

 

[Neostarwcc]

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me. For he wrote about me."

The person that people saw in the OT was God the Word. "The Angel of the Lord" who appeared in bodily form at times... was pre-Incarnate Christ. The Angel of the Lord literally would speak in the first person as God too. He was no regular "angel". He said "I AM THAT I AM" in the Burning Bush. He was the same person Abraham tried to stop from destroying Sodom. And so on and so forth.

Indeed, no one has seen the Father. But they have seen the Son.

Or so this has been a long teaching, since patristic days. I can't see it any other way myself.

I agree. Jesus also says in John 8:58 that he is the great I AM. But, my question was why Jesus would refer to himself in the third person. It's had a satisfactory answer so far But, I'm curious on other people's interpretations too.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

I've always interpreted these verses to mean that the God that was revealed in the Old Testament was Jesus before he came to Earth in the flesh. This is further backed up with Jesus calling himself the great I AM in John 8:58.

But, there's also something else that's been bothering me. In 2 Samuel 7:10-16 It's clearly God the Father talking about Jesus and his return. How did Samuel know the words of the Father when nobody has seen him or heard his form? In Psalms 2:7 It's also clearly the Father speaking of Jesus. How did David know this verse if God the Father never spoke to him? I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God But, how can Jesus make statements of nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice when there are passages in the Bible that are clearly God the Father speaking?

Jesus reveals the Father, Jesus says, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" and John 1:18 says no one has ever seen God, but the only-begotten Son makes the Father known.

Moses did not see God, instead Moses beheld the "backside" of God, as God says to Moses, "No one can see Me and live."; Moses beholds a tiny glimmer of the Divine Glory and this is enough to cause his face to shine bright as the sun, and the need for a veil to be put over his face.

The point of the passages is that Jesus makes God known, where before God was "hidden", hidden behind the veil of His own immense glory, God makes Himself known through Jesus.

Nobody has seen God in the fullness of His glory, nobody has seen the Divine Essence at all. But the Incarnate Logos, the Eternal Son, He makes God known, He who is unseen, unfathomable, and incomprehensible. As Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God, the fullness of God in bodily form.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[joshua 1 9]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and Guide. God give us understanding: "Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

 

[Mark51]

Jesus is referring to the unbelieving and challenging Jewish audience as “neither heard his [God] voice at any time nor seen his figure.“

It seems to me that Psalms 2:7 is initially/partially referring to David. However, being later fulfilled with Christ Jesus. Compare 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:10; 28:6.

 

[straykat]

Okay so, I have a question for you guys that's been bothering me for a long time. In John 5:37, John 6:46, and a few other passages in the Bible Jesus says that nobody has seen or heard God the Father. Yet many people have seen God throughout the OT.

I've always interpreted these verses to mean that the God that was revealed in the Old Testament was Jesus before he came to Earth in the flesh. This is further backed up with Jesus calling himself the great I AM in John 8:58.

But, there's also something else that's been bothering me. In 2 Samuel 7:10-16 It's clearly God the Father talking about Jesus and his return. How did Samuel know the words of the Father when nobody has seen him or heard his form? In Psalms 2:7 It's also clearly the Father speaking of Jesus. How did David know this verse if God the Father never spoke to him? I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God But, how can Jesus make statements of nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice when there are passages in the Bible that are clearly God the Father speaking?

I think Prophets speak from the Spirit. Who proceeds from the Father, but it's different than directly the Father himself. Even before Pentecost, for leaders and prophets, it's often said they were filled with the Spirit. “the Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue” (2 Sam. 23:2). And also how the handing down of authority worked: "And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him. So the people of Israel obeyed him and did as the LORD had commanded Moses." - Deut 34:9

 

[Neostarwcc]

Jesus is referring to the unbelieving and challenging Jewish audience as “neither heard his [God] voice at any time nor seen his figure.“

It seems to me that Psalms 2:7 is initially/partially referring to David. However, being later fulfilled with Christ Jesus. Compare 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:10; 28:6.

I never interpreted those verses that way before. It could make sense that 2 Samuel 7:12-14 is referring to Solomon's son and Psalms 2:7 is referring to David and not God the Father talking to Jesus. But, why would his son be given rule over Israel when Jesus will be the King of Israel when he returns?

But if Jesus meant that nobody has seen God at any time why did he specifically mention "The Father" in both of those verses? To me Jesus was clearly talking about God the Father. What am I missing?

Something else that's bothering me a bit Jesus says in John 5:37 that nobody has heard God the Father's voice but yet people heard his voice when he called out from heaven in Matthew 3:17. Maybe God the Father spoke after Jesus said those words?

 

[Neostarwcc]

I think Prophets speak from the Spirit. Who proceeds from the Father, but it's different than directly the Father himself. Even before Pentecost, for leaders and prophets, it's often said they were filled with the Spirit. “the Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue” (2 Sam. 23:2). And also how the handing down of authority worked: "And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him. So the people of Israel obeyed him and did as the LORD had commanded Moses." - Deut 34:9

That could be another explanation. But, didn't Jesus refer to himself as the great I AM in John 8:58? Which would mean that he was the Burning bush that spoke to Moses at the very least. If nobody saw or heard God the Father than that would mean every time God came down to speak to the prophets either it was Jesus or the Holy Spirit that told them. Either way, the prophets were definitely given the Holy Spirit to help them write the Old Testament.

 

[straykat]

More food for thought:

"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"


I wanted to elaborate a little more on the Burning Bush and other manifestations in the Torah. "The Angel of the Lord": I think in this case "Angel" (as we all may know, it literally means "Messenger") is simply an Old Testament expression of the meaning of Logos.. the Ultimate "Messenger" of God is the WORD itself. "Words" and "Messengers" go hand in hand, am I right? And when this particular "Messenger" speaks in the First Person as God and says "I AM THAT I AM" rather than saying "Thus says the Lord" or something like that, then it's obvious it was no mere angel. He acted as God, spoke as God, etc.. For he WAS God.

And it was clear that Moses described this Presence of the Lord in an understandable form. Not in an unknowable form, as the Father would be.

"And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words." - Deut 33:1-3