I have a big problem.

[Gwen-is-new!]

Well, I just read the original post, and not much more. I have to say, it sounds like the OP has a tendency to over-react. Perhaps she has a lot of stressors. But she acts like being passive-aggressive is some unthinkable disorder and there has been some grand epiphany in finally being able to assign that label to him. Passive-aggression is just one coping style. There's outright aggression, being whiny (I'm guessing the OP falls into this one), matching the opponent, etc. We all have our style of conflict. So what? She is interpreting every little action on his part as clues toward some greater condition that she can blame for her feelings of dissatisfaction with the marriage (or maybe life in general - for some it's hard to distinguish). Maybe just take one day at a time instead of looking for some larger cure-all. Gosh, my husband is passive-aggressive too, but I've learned how to deal with it, and he's learned how to deal with me, and we're very happy. No one is perfect. It does no good to keep blaming the other person for everything, or to cherry-pick their faults so you can tally them and prove to yourself that person is "bad." I bet he does a lot of good too, and doesn't appreciate a spouse that is always looking for fault.

So refreshing - the truth in love.. of course it offends. Jesus offended lots. If she receives this with humility and I SO pray she does - you may have saved her from self-inflicted insanity, and pointed her toward the peace that our Lord offers freely.

 

[All4Christ]

So refreshing - the truth in love.. of course it offends. Jesus offended lots. If she receives this with humility and I SO pray she does - you may have saved her from self-inflicted insanity, and pointed her toward the peace that our Lord offers freely.

And how does Akmom know that this is the truth in her situation? How do you know that it is the reality the OP experiences? Is it truth? Or just a possibility? Is it just a difference in communication - or is it possible that it is more? I really don't know, but I doubt you know either.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

And how does Akmom know that this is the truth in her situation? How do you know that it is the reality the OP experiences? Is it truth? Or just a possibility? Is it just a difference in communication - or is it possible that it is more? I really don't know, but I doubt you know either.

I'm guessing Akmom picked it up out of the lengthy posts - since it screamed out. Of course I can't see her heart, and we most definitely haven't heard her husband's side of the story; however she did type very detailed entries explaining it all so it's not too mysterious where her thoughts reside.

She did blog in 2014 that she was resenting him because he was "too nice to her and does everything she wants" .... you've gotta be kidding?! If she has been harboring resentment and bitterness since 2014, no wonder she is feeling insane.. Choose to sin choose to suffer - emotionally - bitterness will eat you alive. Choose gratitude and stop looking at the speck in others eye when you have a pole in own --- well, me personally have been restored to sanity over and over when I made that choice.

 

[mkgal1]

Can you imagine if we took that approach to workplace dynamics? If you determined that a co-worker was simply "emotionally abusive" and not fit for working with others? What are you going to do, quit your job? Demand he/she be perpetually unemployed?

I've worked with people that were more interested in competing with others instead of working as a team. Our supervisor *did* bring that up in their evaluation (the person griped about that). They eventually left on their own. When people that are out for themselves don't get their way---they typically are the ones to leave (but their story is usually that others were to blame). There's no need to feel responsible for how the rest of their lifes plays out. That's their responsibility (and those that they encounter).

 

[mkgal1]

Choose gratitude and stop looking at the speck in others eye when you have a pole in own --- well, me personally have been restored to sanity over and over when I made that choice.

IF this is an emotionally destructive marriage---choosing gratitude (basically ignoring what's toxic and harmful) is misguided counsel. Designer Mom's posts reflect her determination to make sure she doesn't have a "pole in her eye".....but after that, I believe it's totally appropriate for her to try to put her finger on what's doing damage to her marriage.

 

[mkgal1]

Fast forward a few years. After trying every thing under the sun to try to get my husband to stop "shutting down" (that's what we were calling it at that point, because he insisted he "couldn't help it") I decided that *I* was obviously the one with the problem and set out to try to become more "safe" for my husband so that he could finally be able to connect with me on a deeper level. I read the book "Love and Respect" by Emerson Eggrichs and "safe" I became. Something went horribly wrong at this point, though. Instead of becoming more loving towards me, my husband felt "safe" to openly criticize my every move.

See the efforts that have been made?

 

[mkgal1]

People are hurt and broken, and need love, healing, and deliverance - this is why most act out. I would never condone physical abuse, but the world has gone crazy with calling every bad verbal behavior/conflict emotional and verbal abuse, and saying it's biblical grounds for divorce! I guess it's another one of Satan's tactics to destroy marriages. I'm so sad to see this all over the marriage forums.

There are people that do not *want* genuine love and relationships with others (these are the abusive/toxic people). Giving them "more love" (and ignoring and minimizing the harmful behavior) only destroys the one giving the one-directional love.....and perpetuates the abuse further (it escalates as the person is empowered more). Again....unless you've lived through it (or have a close friend that has and understand how soul-killing, life-killing it is)....I'd really plead with you to not post on the topic (or offer any "advice" to anyone you meet in person).

I'm guessing the church downplays it because of God and what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us is so much bigger than our spouse calling us a bad word, shaming, or belittling us. Maybe the church downplays it because they know that we are supposed to be getting our identity, purpose, security, and confidence from our relationship with Jesus Christ.. so in comparison, verbal abuse is small when your faith is large and mature.

We aren't speaking of "a spouse calling us bad words, shaming, or belittling". We are speaking of a pattern ----an entire marriage that is supposed to be based on love and trust---being more about competition and sabotage of everything a person is working towards (that means God isn't in control of that person's life--their abuser is!). That--to me--isn't what God would EVER put His stamp of approval on (nor should anyone in the Body of Christ).

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

There are people that do not *want* genuine love and relationships with others (these are the abusive/toxic people). Giving them "more love" (and ignoring and minimizing the harmful behavior) only destroys the one giving the one-directional love.....and perpetuates the abuse further (it escalates as the person is empowered more). Again....unless you've lived through it (or have a close friend that has and understand how soul-killing, life-killing it is)....I'd really plead with you to not post on the topic (or offer any "advice" to anyone you meet in person).

We aren't speaking of "a spouse calling us bad words, shaming, or belittling". We are speaking of a pattern ----an entire marriage that is supposed to be based on love and trust---being more about competition and sabotage of everything a person is working towards (that means God isn't in control of that person's life--their abuser is!). That--to me--isn't what God would EVER put His stamp of approval on (nor should anyone in the Body of Christ).

I didn't know we were referring to a "pattern"... Please forgive - I didn't pick up from the thread that this was a pattern with severe escalation of abuse. I will go back and re-read! Yikes

I HAVE NOT seen an abuser escalate more when the person responded with the perfect love as Christ, and seems you have.. but I HAVE seen my amazing Lord get the hold of many hearts and radically change and transform people. I worship a God of hope, a God who can do ANYTHING, who can do immeasurable more than I can even imagine, who set the captive free, who heals the broken-hearted, who turns beauty from ashes - so that is the "advice" I give. I share a message of HOPE which is backed by Truth in scripture, and has nothing to do with my personal experience, and thoughts that are tainted by my flesh and personal sensitivities.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

See the efforts that have been made?

That is awesome, and that book is supposed to be wonderful.. the best. Praises the Lord is refining her and pruning her in amazing ways without a doubt! He is using this trial to perfect her faith!

I wish God wasn't outside time and space, and He operated on MY time table then I would only have to bare all things, believe all things, hope all things, and ensure all things for a few years! "that's it God.. I give up.. I know you said your grace was sufficient and your strength is made perfect in my weakness.. but you lied man"

 

[mkgal1]

So refreshing - the truth in love.. of course it offends. Jesus offended lots

If you look back in the Bible where Jesus "offends people"....you'll notice it's typically the proud, greedy, and self-righteous that are oppressing groups of people that he offends (like the money changers in the Temple---they were basically exploiting those that traveled great distances and had very little money). When Jesus draws a line in the sand....He's normally on the side of the marginalized and oppressed (and I believe we---as people trying to imitate His ways) ought to do the same thing.

I HAVE NOT seen an abuser escalate more when the person responded with the perfect love as Christ, and seems you have.. but I HAVE seen my amazing Lord get the hold of many hearts and radically change and transform people. I worship a God of hope, a God who can do ANYTHING, who can do immeasurable more than I can even imagine, who set the captive free, who heals the broken-hearted, who turns beauty from ashes - so that is the "advice" I give. I share a message of HOPE which is backed by Truth in scripture, and has nothing to do with my personal experience, and thoughts that are tainted by my flesh and personal sensitivities.

That's why I keep repeating that those that are posting need to do some reading FIRST. This is a family's life. People will live with the results of any advice taken.

I think we have a big theological difference, though. I am not of the opinion that God "gets a hold of hearts" and changes and transforms people (not without their cooperation, I mean). That doesn't mean I don't believe in a "God of hope".....I just believe the "hope" is found by different means.

 

[mkgal1]

Here is a good article--a transcript from an interview:

>>>Louise: Lundy, your work focuses on the fact that abusers have control over their actions. How much control do their victims have over their partner's actions?

LundyBancroft: This is a crucial question, Louise. The abuser tends to make the woman feel that if she would just work harder, be more perfect, take better care of his needs, be sensitive to his every emotion, and so forth, then he wouldn't explode and turn mean. But it doesn't work. You can only manage an abuser for brief periods of time. Working hard to cater to him may get you through this hour or this day or maybe even this week, but sooner or later he's going to get mean and start bullying you again.

Louise: You've written that abuse has more to do with an abuser’s mindset than with his history or his feelings – for example, you say abusers aren’t abusive because they’re angry, they’re angry because they’re abusive. Could you expand on that and why it’s so important for women to know?

LundyBancroft: The anger issue is closely related to the previous question. Many people believe that if they can figure out what is making the man so angry, he won't explode. But his anger isn't his problem -- in fact, there are people with huge anger problems who don't get mean or abusive -- they're just angry all the time. (Which isn't good either, but it isn't the same thing as being mean or controlling.)

His problem is that he thinks he has the right to control the woman's life, that he looks down on her as inferior to him, and that he thinks her life should revolve around doing things for him -- that she shouldn't have needs and a life of her own. So making him less angry isn't going to change how he treats his partner, because he'll still have all those terrible attitudes. Some abusers can be extremely cruel without getting angry at all. So the anger is really a red herring.

Another way to think about it is this: If you expect a woman to be a perfect, servile, unquestioning person whose life is completely devoted to meeting your needs, and who has no needs of her own, aren't you going to be angry all the time? Because no woman could live up to that (and no woman should have to).

Louise: Why do you think abuse often starts or worsens around pregnancy/new birth?

LundyBancroft: Because a pregnant woman, and the mother of a newborn, has to focus on her own needs and the needs of the this new growing life. She can't be devoting her life to taking care of her man. He's got to grow up and take care of himself during this stage in life -- but the abuser often refuses to do that, and continues demanding attention and catering. So he becomes worse than no help -- he's actually contributing to the stress and demand of this difficult time.

Louise: Mothers who stay with their abusers face a lot of victim blaming, what are your comments on that?

LundyBancroft: There's no easy answer for the abused mother. Children don't want to lose their father, they just want his abusiveness and violence to stop. If she leaves him, she also faces economic hardships that could drag her away from her children - she might have to start working full time, for example, which could be a big loss for her and her kids if that wasn't the case before. Children who are living with an abuser in their lives NEED THEIR MOTHERS.

And what if leaving him would actually mean she has less time to spend with the kids? It's hard to say if that's best. And then, the abuser is going to get visitation time, so suddenly the kids will be away from her whole weekends, half the day on their birthdays, half the day on holidays including the big religious holidays, and so forth. And finally, when his visitation starts, he's suddenly getting all this time alone with them where she has no way to keep an eye on what he's doing with them. So I think there are good reasons to leave and good reasons to stay, and we really need to respect the choices mothers make in these horrible binds.[full article here: http://www.pandys.org/lundybancroft-transcript.html]

 

[All4Christ]

That is awesome, and that book is supposed to be wonderful.. the best. Praises the Lord is refining her and pruning her in amazing ways without a doubt! He is using this trial to perfect her faith!

I wish God wasn't outside time and space, and He operated on MY time table then I would only have to bare all things, believe all things, hope all things, and ensure all things for a few years! "that's it God.. I give up.. I know you said your grace was sufficient and your strength is made perfect in my weakness.. but you lied man"

Humor me for a second - let's take a look at one of my friend's current situation:

* She is married to someone who was a drug addict and alcoholic. He spent all their savings on drugs a few years ago.
* He is extremely controlling. He doesn't allow her to spend times with friends outside of church, except for rare occasions.
* She feels depressed much of her life, as she can't do anything for herself. He cancels appointments she makes with friends, gets angry with her on a regular basis for no logical reason, emotionally treats her horribly, and is very manipulative. Anytime he drinks, he is an angry drunk man....it's not a good situation when he gets that way.
* This has been a pattern for over 10 years.
* My friend has several kids and is having another.

Do you see the picture here? It's a very emotionally abusive (and financially abusive) marriage with a strong pattern over many years. It's not a typical squabble between a married couple.

So she decides to go to marriage counseling at her church. They decide to use this love and respect book (yes, I have read a lot of it). She comes out of the marriage counseling believing this is all her fault. She isn't respecting him enough and not trusting him enough. Yet - if she doesn't watch finances, doesn't watch out for her kids, and doesn't respect herself, she is buried by the way she and her kids are treated. She now gets depressed because things aren't getting better despite her trying to respect him. He abuses her respect.

So tell me this - is it her fault that the marriage is like this? Is she not respecting her husband enough for him to treat her like he is commanded to treat his wife? Should she ignore all needs of her children and herself in order to respect a husband who doesn't take care of her?

Before anyone says she isn't trusting God - she constantly prays, reads her Bible and seeks Him above all else. I believe God's love is what protects her life from shattering. However, the church needs to help protect her as well. They think they are by holding this class, but in reality, the course material is confirming and enabling his behavior.

 

[mkgal1]

I believe God's love is what protects her life from shattering. However, the church needs to help protect her as well. They think they are by holding this class, but in reality, the course material is confirming and enabling his behavior.

THIS is the point where I believe the Body of Christ *could be* working towards God's purpose of showing God's love and hope. I believe God needs us to be His hands and feet....His ambassadors (and--quite honestly---most churches are failing in that and often responding to abuse by saying they don't get involved in "domestic issues"). God assigned Moses to be His hands and feet to free the Israelites......the Freedom riders were responsible for for the civil rights in the US in the 60's. The same is necessary for toxic families. They need (human) advocates.

 

[mkgal1]

That is awesome, and that book is supposed to be wonderful.. the best.

Wait. Are you referring to Love & Respect as being "the best"? Did you not see that things got WORSE when she followed the advise given in the book? Designer Mom wrote: "I read the book "Love and Respect" by Emerson Eggrichs and "safe" I became. Something went horribly wrong at this point, though. Instead of becoming more loving towards me, my husband felt "safe" to openly criticize my every move."

Same thing as All4Christ's friend (things got WORSE). Many others have also reported the same thing---and Eggerich even wrote that in his book (that many have experienced poor...even harmful... results).

>>>>On page 282, Dr. Eggerichs admits that his advice isn’t working for many people; that he receives tons of letters from frustrated people who have tried his advice in their marriage only to watch it backfire on them. Then he quotes from a letter where a wife actually “regrets” telling her husband “what I learned from you because he uses it against me each time. I can take the criticism. I feel I deserve it — but his rage . . . makes me want to get away and hide.”~https://cryingoutforjustice.com/201...angerous-book-one-star-review-by-avid-reader/

That's not "God pruning and refining"---that's a man mistreating and destroying his wife (far from "loving like Christ"). When that belief is promoted (the "pruning and refining" belief) what does that shape God as? Not very loving (although I've heard/read all the distorted defenses for this as well).

 

[Living4HisGlory]

Can you imagine if we took that approach to workplace dynamics? If you determined that a co-worker was simply "emotionally abusive" and not fit for working with others? What are you going to do, quit your job? Demand he/she be perpetually unemployed? No, chances are that you'll find a way to deal with them, and after understanding their strengths and limitations, even learn to appreciate what they do have to offer (even if it's very little compared to others). That's life. But people get on these forums and act like marriages are completely disposable. People rarely even discuss the repercussions of broken homes.

"I'm an expert because my ex had this problem" is such a tiring phrase. I've known too many divorced couples who characterized their exes with various psychological diagnoses, which is hard to hear when you know both of them and love both of them and watch both of them move on to functional relationships. To me, it usually looks like they were working out the quirks of marriage during their immature years and nothing was significantly wrong with either of them... but because it was their first experiment in commitment, they perceived it that way. If you're seeing "emotional abuse" everywhere, in every post, with pretty vague descriptions and only one side of the story, you're probably jumping to the conclusion that you want to reach.

Thank you for sharing this wisdom! I love the co-worker analogy!

 

[ValleyGal]

I have had coworkers who are mentally abusive bullies. There is a process for resolving it; workplace bullying and harassment is against workplace laws, and there is legislation and recourse for those who are bullied at work. I had to initiate the process where I'm currently working, and once it got rolling, the behaviours immediately stopped. Because the behaviours stopped, I halted the process, but will absolutely re-open the investigation if it ever starts up again. There are disciplinary actions, up to and including losing her job.

Similarly, there is a process for correcting bullying in marriage, up to and including separation and/or divorce. The message must be that bullying is never okay, whether it is at work, at home or on the playground or streets. Let's stop making the victims pay for the bullying by appeasing the bully, and start making the bully take responsibility for their own egos and stop accepting the behaviour.

 

[mkgal1]

Let's stop making the victims pay for the bullying by appeasing the bully, and start making the bully take responsibility for their own egos and stop accepting the behaviour.

Amen.

 

[akmom]

That's a good point, ValleyGal. If the workplace scenario involves obvious bullying and the workplace standards are clear, it's pretty easy to punish offenders and correct behavior. I think most of the dynamics are more subtle, where maybe one or more people feel offended but others might not see it that way. HR might have trouble defining how a person must act within the scope of their job. Perhaps what one person considers important criticism for getting the job done, another person considers condescending, for example. Some personality types just don't interact well. So in those cases, people adjust, guard themselves, go through different channels to accomplish things, etc. They don't perpetually seek revenge or perpetually blame a coworker because it just doesn't go anywhere.

With relationships, clear bullying might be recognized by a counselor and if both parties want the marriage to work, they'll do what they must. But other times, they might just not agree on how to interact, or even whether there is a problem, so at some point they have to both adjust their words and expectations and just stop going down that path of blame. Appreciate people for who they are, in a marriage or at work.