I found God...

[Eudaimonist]

I think that metaphysics, if anything, should start with questions- not assumptions. Starting with assumptions is almost always a recipe for error.

I think you'll find that even this recommendation of yours is based on assumptions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[gaara4158]

So what the OP is saying that religion exists and that it makes people feel good? And that non-religious people have other sources of feeling good? And that we need something to make us feel good because otherwise the thought of death would be too miserable to bear?

<_<

Have I missed something here? When did this become something radical?

It's not radical in most circles, but I've only recently come out of the de-conversion process. So I'm just coming to this conclusion for myself; I did some research afterward and found that Freud said exactly the same thing. So it's not a new, radical philosophy, but i did just come up with it all by myself.

yes, i do want a cookie

 

[Suggestion Box]

I think you'll find that even this recommendation of yours is based on assumptions.

woah i agreed.

i would just like to say that every fact i know is based, somewhere down the line, on pure assumption. the only thing i know is that i know nothing. and i dont even know that! so i choose to believe certain things because i simply prefer them. i can admit that. otherwise, i would make assumptions that weren't my choice, and theres no fun in that.

and i've noticed that if I read into something - anything really - that even claims to have credible sources, i start to believe it. then i gotta be like, woah there buddy. let's check the sources. 'the universe next door' by Sire- i was like, shoot man, let's get new age! the Baghavad Gita, i got the urge to do some yoga. still do actually it's a pretty good workout.

sorry i rambled.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

woah i agreed.

i would just like to say that every fact i know is based, somewhere down the line, on pure assumption. the only thing i know is that i know nothing. and i dont even know that! so i choose to believe certain things because i simply prefer them. i can admit that. otherwise, i would make assumptions that weren't my choice, and theres no fun in that.

and i've noticed that if I read into something - anything really - that even claims to have credible sources, i start to believe it. then i gotta be like, woah there buddy. let's check the sources. 'the universe next door' by Sire- i was like, shoot man, let's get new age! the Baghavad Gita, i got the urge to do some yoga. still do actually it's a pretty good workout.

sorry i rambled.

If you're saying that you can't know if what you perceive reality to be is in fact correct, then yes, you could be a victim of Descarte's demon. But there's no reason to live your life as though this is the case. There would be no utility in that.

But it's not the case that we choose what we believe. If I said to you "For the next twenty minutes, choose to believe that everyone around you is actually a demon planning to hurt you.", would you really hide in a closet for twenty minutes and then revert back to your previous belief? Of course not.

 

[Suggestion Box]

indeed, i will not choose to live my life assuming that i know nothing. however, this does mean that my most basic assumption about what is real is up to me - and whether that assumption is accurate is purely a statement of its self-consistency.

 

[70x7]

When we die, you can ask God if He is real or not and we will see who is right.

 

[Eudaimonist]

When we die, you can ask God if He is real or not and we will see who is right.

Actually, when we die we won't exist and won't know who is right.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[R3quiem]

When we die, you can ask God if He is real or not and we will see who is right.

And if that god is Thor? Then what?


Hammer time? :o

 

[Suggestion Box]

But it's not the case that we choose what we believe. If I said to you "For the next twenty minutes, choose to believe that everyone around you is actually a demon planning to hurt you.", would you really hide in a closet for twenty minutes and then revert back to your previous belief? Of course not.

oh sorry forgot to respond to that part. you do choose what you believe. not immediately, as your example would suggest. but you do choose what you read, who you hang out with, what kind of lifestyle you have, etc. if you steer the factors that you can choose towards a belief that you are struggling with taking on, but which is self-consistent, then over time you will grow to believe it.

part of the reason i believe in God despite a lot of reading into other views is that my friend-base is mostly in the church, or with others who believe the same. we discuss it quite a bit. our views change, yes, but the more we discuss the word of God, the more sense it makes.

and the reason i don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster is that, the more i hear about it, the less credible it becomes. even it's own believers claim that it was made up!

 

[R3quiem]

Choosing who you hang out with and what you read, which may slowly influence belief in a way that we can not predict beforehand is vastly different than choosing what you believe.

 

[Everlasting33]

It's not radical in most circles, but I've only recently come out of the de-conversion process. So I'm just coming to this conclusion for myself; I did some research afterward and found that Freud said exactly the same thing. So it's not a new, radical philosophy, but i did just come up with it all by myself.

yes, i do want a cookie

After I changed my major to psychology, I began the slow process of becoming an agnostic/atheist. Reading Robert Firestone's "Fear of Intimacy," in which he details religion as the antidote for "death anxiety," really inspired me to reject religion, specifically Christianity. I believed we created our own purpose and that we didn't need some God trying to fulfill some longing in our souls for the supernatural.

I was an agnostic/atheist for about four years and I enjoyed the freedom I experienced. I didn't worry about going to hell, all the sinful actions and thoughts I committed daily, and I didn't stress over "God's Will." It was certainly encouraging.

However, I grew increasingly annoyed with Christians and inwardly scoffed at their ignorance and unintellectual minds. I just felt bitter and resentful of religion...I guess for good reason...but I didn't like my attitude toward religion. I was intolerant of it!

Anyway, long story short, I am a Christian although I have definitely balanced my inner self with religion. Reading "Reason for God" inspired me to give it another shot and finding that many of my Christian relatives have an inner peace and joy that I lacked was significant.

I still believe that religion can be a crutch and it can be simply one's own purpose in the world. But, surely you can say this about anything. At the end of the day, if Christianity brings me sincere peace, joy, and a love for others I find validity and significance in the fact. If I die and there is no god, then I simply won't exist to be disappointed or to know, right?

I will always have a skeptic mind, especially with my knowledge of psychology. But, I am happy to be somewhat in the middle of religion and psychology...both are not rejected and both can be intertwined in my daily life.

 

[gaara4158]

I still believe that religion can be a crutch and it can be simply one's own purpose in the world. But, surely you can say this about anything. At the end of the day, if Christianity brings me sincere peace, joy, and a love for others I find validity and significance in the fact. If I die and there is no god, then I simply won't exist to be disappointed or to know, right?

I will always have a skeptic mind, especially with my knowledge of psychology. But, I am happy to be somewhat in the middle of religion and psychology...both are not rejected and both can be intertwined in my daily life.

I'd love to be able to think like you do; I'm a psychology major as well, and I must say, it does conflict with many Biblical things I was taught as a child. I have many reasons for my agnosticism, but I'd love to be able to get the benefits of believing there's someone out there watching out for me and preparing a place for me in Heaven, without the nagging thought that this seems like exactly what I'd make up if I was making up a deity.

 

[Everlasting33]

I'd love to be able to think like you do; I'm a psychology major as well, and I must say, it does conflict with many Biblical things I was taught as a child. I have many reasons for my agnosticism, but I'd love to be able to get the benefits of believing there's someone out there watching out for me and preparing a place for me in Heaven, without the nagging thought that this seems like exactly what I'd make up if I was making up a deity.

What would you like to do with your psychology degree?

I understand. While not to downplay your youth, 19 years old is still very young and there are many more life experiences that may either validate your current attitudes or challenge/change them. I am almost 25, and I have gained so much knowledge because of college and life experiences. So keep that in mind.

I actually began creating psychology and self-help as my religion and/or god for years. For whatever reason, I only felt worse doing this and I figured I needed a balance.

Some of Christianity I do question and some of it sounds like a fairy-tale. However, one of the more convincing aspects (at least for me) was the difference between Christians and Non-Christians. Generally, I am able to tell if someone is a Christian upon meeting them. There is this gentleness, joy, and peace that seems lacking in Non-Christians. Whether or not this is reliable can certainly be argued. On the other hand, I found it interesting and it really challenged me to think about the power of God and Christianity.

If you haven't read "Reason for God," I recommend it.

 

[Taure]

I'm trying to find "gentleness, joy, and peace" in Rush Limbaugh and currently failing.

 

[Nooj]

Generally, I am able to tell if someone is a Christian upon meeting them. There is this gentleness, joy, and peace that seems lacking in Non-Christians.

Some of the most beautiful people I know are non-Christians. I don't mean beautiful in the physical sense, but happy and amazing people who I'm very lucky to be around.

 

[R3quiem]

The nicest guy I know is a Muslim.

From what I've seen, the amount of goodness or peace within people I meet has little or nothing to do with their religion. I know nice Christians and rude, preachy holier-than-though Christians. I know nice atheists and a couple rude ones. I only know a few Hindus- most of them are very nice, though one is kind of a jerk.

There is a group of pagans at my university and they are all extremely nice people. Some Christian groups on campus have problems with the pagan group, but the pagans are accepting towards the Christians.

And, considering that a majority of Christians believe in and accept the concept of hell, I have a hard time viewing any of them as very nice, peaceful people.

 

[praisejahupeople]

The nicest guy I know is a Muslim.

From what I've seen, the amount of goodness or peace within people I meet has little or nothing to do with their religion. I know nice Christians and rude, preachy holier-than-though Christians. I know nice atheists and a couple rude ones. I only know a few Hindus- most of them are very nice, though one is kind of a jerk.

There is a group of pagans at my university and they are all extremely nice people. Some Christian groups on campus have problems with the pagan group, but the pagans are accepting towards the Christians.

And, considering that a majority of Christians believe in and accept the concept of hell, I have a hard time viewing any of them as very nice, peaceful people.

What about christians who dont believe that hell is a place of fiery torment?And you must secretly enjoy associating with people who in your very own words arent nice or peaceful seeing as this is a christian forum?

 

[Everlasting33]

I'm trying to find "gentleness, joy, and peace" in Rush Limbaugh and currently failing.

Obviously, not every Christian fits into this category.

 

[Everlasting33]

Some of the most beautiful people I know are non-Christians. I don't mean beautiful in the physical sense, but happy and amazing people who I'm very lucky to be around.

It has been the opposite for me. Everyone is different and my own life experiences have told me otherwise.

 

[R3quiem]

What about christians who dont believe that hell is a place of fiery torment?

Well, do they still believe it is torment? If it is fire, ice, or eternal emotional damage, I don't really see a difference.

As for Christians who do not believe in a place of endless suffering or torment of any kind, no, I do not let my feelings about those who do believe in those things spill over onto those that do not. Looking back at my post, my words are misleading in this area. When I said "any of them", I meant that specific group, not all Christians. As in, "any of them that believe in eternal suffering". I apologize because that wasn't very clear.

Even if a person appears very nice, I do not usually find them to be a very nice person if they accept eternal suffering (of any kind) and continue to love the deity that would allow such a thing to exist within its creation. What that says to me is that they are the type of person that can be completely happy and peaceful whilst another conscious being is suffering eternally.

And you must secretly enjoy associating with people who in your very own words arent nice or peaceful seeing as this is a christian forum?

Here's a quote from my post that you responded to:

"From what I've seen, the amount of goodness or peace within people I meet has little or nothing to do with their religion. I know nice Christians and rude, preachy holier-than-though Christians. I know nice atheists and a couple rude ones. I only know a few Hindus- most of them are very nice, though one is kind of a jerk."

Christians I consider "nice" would not be those who accept eternal suffering as reasonable.

And, to be honest, I once found a non-Christian forum that I liked better per capita (as in, there was almost nobody there I disliked, but there are a lot of people here I don't particularly like), but it was too small to support my posting interests. This forum is very, very large and has many Muslims, Atheists, Deists, Agnostics, Hindus, Pagans, and other religious people besides Christians to talk to.