I found God...

[gaara4158]

...but not in the way you think. I've been doing a lot of thinking about religion and psychology lately, and here's what I've come up with.
There is probably no God, in the sense of an all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the universe. However, God is very much alive in the minds of believers, almost like a placebo god. People pray to God for guidance, for courage, for hope, for forgiveness, for success... for anything they want. Many of the things prayed for are attainable emotional states, and when they pray to achieve these states, they expect to, and when they expect to, they do. In this way, God is very real to them, but really it's their belief in God that's working in their lives, not the actual God, which doesn't exist. It is a manifestation of something we all have within us, believers and nonbelievers alike; the fulfillment of our need for hope, significance, a grand scheme of things. We hate to think that we're practically alone in this universe, that everything we do will fade into nothingness in the face of eternity, and that there's no guarantee that tomorrow a serial killer won't break in and end it all for us and our families. So we all have our ways of dispelling these fears, and a god-belief is just one of them. Don't nonbelievers have something similar? We delve into our studies, our hobbies, or our jobs and try to forget how vastly insignificant we are; we tell ourselves there's nothing we can do but kick back and enjoy life while we can, so we think pleasant thoughts and do whatever feels good. But aren't we all "worshiping" something? The purpose of life, it seems, is to escape the natural sense of despair that comes with such a mundane reality by occupying your mind with something else, which for many people is organized religion. For others, like I said earlier, it's a hobby, the rat race, self-improvement... anything you set your mind to.
In other words, the purpose of life is to find a purpose.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

 

[Suggestion Box]

that's an interesting speculation.
doncha think it's crossed our minds?

that is an opinion many consider, and the next step is realizing that its purely hypothesis with no real evidence. seeing people behave a certain way is not evidence for why they behave that way.

so now you're job as an intelligent, purpose-seeking individual, is to keep on doing research. not necessarily just Christian seeking... feel free to explore all sorts of beliefs and philosophies... but you're absolutely right that your purpose is to seek purpose.

you're doin good.

 

[gaara4158]

Of course it's just speculation; isn't all philosophy?

 

[Suggestion Box]

yep. but God's not a philosophy. there's a lot of historical stuff to look into. if you're looking for a place to start, check out this site:

Historical Evidence for the Resurrection

it's probly pretty biased... but hey it's a start. there are a lot of speculative sources our there, and a lot of sources that reflect the actual Masoretic Texts and other original (or as close to original as possible) documents. Look into the Dead Sea Scrolls; i may be mistaken, but I think they back up Isaiah pretty well.

if you are gonna pursue some real evidence, realize that no religious text is without bias and misinterpretation from thousands of years of ambiguous meaning and mistranslation (be it intentional or no). also realize that what we think of today as 'religion' is not at all the definition they had 2000 years ago. also, there's no reason (aside from what modern society would have you believe) to think that all religions didn't come from the same place.

 

[gaara4158]

I'm curious as to why you're directing me towards religious texts when I've obviously already written religion off as just one way of distracting oneself from one's unfathomable insignificance?

 

[Snyder45]

...but not in the way you think. I've been doing a lot of thinking about religion and psychology lately, and here's what I've come up with.
There is probably no God, in the sense of an all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the universe. However, God is very much alive in the minds of believers, almost like a placebo god. People pray to God for guidance, for courage, for hope, for forgiveness, for success... for anything they want. Many of the things prayed for are attainable emotional states, and when they pray to achieve these states, they expect to, and when they expect to, they do. In this way, God is very real to them, but really it's their belief in God that's working in their lives, not the actual God, which doesn't exist. It is a manifestation of something we all have within us, believers and nonbelievers alike; the fulfillment of our need for hope, significance, a grand scheme of things. We hate to think that we're practically alone in this universe, that everything we do will fade into nothingness in the face of eternity, and that there's no guarantee that tomorrow a serial killer won't break in and end it all for us and our families. So we all have our ways of dispelling these fears, and a god-belief is just one of them. Don't nonbelievers have something similar? We delve into our studies, our hobbies, or our jobs and try to forget how vastly insignificant we are; we tell ourselves there's nothing we can do but kick back and enjoy life while we can, so we think pleasant thoughts and do whatever feels good. But aren't we all "worshiping" something? The purpose of life, it seems, is to escape the natural sense of despair that comes with such a mundane reality by occupying your mind with something else, which for many people is organized religion. For others, like I said earlier, it's a hobby, the rat race, self-improvement... anything you set your mind to.
In other words, the purpose of life is to find a purpose.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

So, you live and then... you die... and you will be dead a lot longer then you are alive. I would suggest start thinking about that. Try Ecclesiastes on for size. Death makes all of this useless chasing we do completely useless, 'everything is vanity'. Oh, love is not useless, love is not vanity, but everything else is.

There is more wisdom contemplating what will happen if you face death, then about your meaningless, mundane life...

As for understanding other people (God, for instance)... you may not have noticed this, but this is hard to do... we tend to see what we see in others from what we ourselves can understand. Hence, we see in others from our own self. It really is impossible to see beyond our own selves, something greater then ourselves... because we just don't know what is greater then our own self... that is, after all, impossible.

Your opinion, however, is duly noted.

Try to maybe note other people's opinions sometimes, however... and maybe stop seeing everyone who believes differently as stupider or weaker then you are. Because you know what? You may be wrong.

 

[gaara4158]

So, you live and then... you die... and you will be dead a lot longer then you are alive.

Yes. I have been thinking about that; that's how I came up with this.

Try Ecclesiastes on for size. Death makes all of this useless chasing we do completely useless, 'everything is vanity'. Oh, love is not useless, love is not vanity, but everything else is.

I know all about Ecclesiastes and what it says about death. You're missing the point; believing in God is just your way of avoiding the despair that comes with mortality.

As for understanding other people (God, for instance)... you may not have noticed this, but this is hard to do... we tend to see what we see in others from what we ourselves can understand. Hence, we see in others from our own self. It really is impossible to see beyond our own selves, something greater then ourselves... because we just don't know what is greater then our own self... that is, after all, impossible.

An astute observation.

Try to maybe note other people's opinions sometimes, however... and maybe stop seeing everyone who believes differently as stupider or weaker then you are. Because you know what? You may be wrong.

Unless we're talking about math, there's always the possibility that I'm wrong. But this is my opinion, and if it offends, so be it. Isn't that what Christians also say?

 

[Suggestion Box]

Isn't that what Christians also say?

that's like me saying 'isn't that what agnostics say?' which of course would be ridiculous because agnosticism is more a confession of uncertainty than a belief - there's no way you all think the same way. 'Agnostic' is nothing but a label, be it placed on one by himself or by others. similarly, 'Christian' is a label, just as is 'Democrat' or 'Republican'.

and i call shenanigans on your claim that you have read enough to write off religion. some of the most intelligent and well-read scholars of our day would not even make that claim. unless you are happen to be a renowned scholar, in which case i acquiesce.

i'm directing you towards religious texts for the same reason i direct myself towards them. because there's no way you have read enough simply to 'write off religion'. just as there's no way that i have read enough to write off any other 'religion' but my own. if you read something that intends to challenge your perspective, and read it only from your current perspective, then you are doomed to disagree, no matter how much sense it makes to others. if i am going to read a buddhist or muslim scripture, i have to put aside what I think and consider what they think. then, after reading, i must step back and evaluate the two points of view from the perspective of each.

there's a lot of credibility behind most of the big world religions. even if its purely a way to control people, or if you don't agree or don't understand, you have to respect the impact religion has had, the lives it has changed, and the wisdom that it shares.

 

[gaara4158]

that's like me saying 'isn't that what agnostics say?' which of course would be ridiculous because agnosticism is more a confession of uncertainty than a belief - there's no way you all think the same way. 'Agnostic' is nothing but a label, be it placed on one by himself or by others. similarly, 'Christian' is a label, just as is 'Democrat' or 'Republican'.

Point being, are you going to ask me to change my opinion because it is offensive to you, even though you probably wouldn't change yours if it offended me?

and i call shenanigans on your claim that you have read enough to write off religion. some of the most intelligent and well-read scholars of our day would not even make that claim. unless you are happen to be a renowned scholar, in which case i acquiesce.

Ok, religion is a many-faceted creature. There's still plenty of good stuff in religion, such as moral values, good philosophy, and epic poetry. But there's also a lot of "shenanigans" such as "God is always watching you" and "The dead shall rise again and live forever with God." The latter is what I'm writing off as a crutch; I'm still open to ideas that fall into the former category. But until somebody gives me a good reason to buy into the whole God thing, my philosophy stands.
Funny you should mention that I need to be a renowned professor to be making these statements; Austrian Psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud had a very similar philosophy, only stated much more eloquently.

there's a lot of credibility behind most of the big world religions. even if its purely a way to control people, or if you don't agree or don't understand, you have to respect the impact religion has had, the lives it has changed, and the wisdom that it shares.

I appreciate your concern that I'm going to toss out the baby with the bathwater, but rest assured that I've got the baby right here.

 

[kotwebck]

Fools ... the truth is infront of you, and you are looking through it.

But I guess, you have made your choice ... like I said in anouther post, if you were 100% convinced that you are right you would not be posting here ... so something is still eating at you ... look at the big picture first.

Can you afford to be wrong?

 

[gaara4158]

Fools ... the truth is infront of you, and you are looking through it.

But I guess, you have made your choice ... like I said in anouther post, if you were 100% convinced that you are right you would not be posting here ... so something is still eating at you ... look at the big picture first.

Can you afford to be wrong?

Oh boy.

The whole reason I posted this is because I finally have seen the big picture... Don't go throwing Pascal's wager on me like it's some kind of valid argument.

 

[nhisname]

...but not in the way you think. I've been doing a lot of thinking about religion and psychology lately, and here's what I've come up with.
There is probably no God, in the sense of an all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the universe. However, God is very much alive in the minds of believers, almost like a placebo god. People pray to God for guidance, for courage, for hope, for forgiveness, for success... for anything they want. Many of the things prayed for are attainable emotional states, and when they pray to achieve these states, they expect to, and when they expect to, they do. In this way, God is very real to them, but really it's their belief in God that's working in their lives, not the actual God, which doesn't exist. It is a manifestation of something we all have within us, believers and nonbelievers alike; the fulfillment of our need for hope, significance, a grand scheme of things. We hate to think that we're practically alone in this universe, that everything we do will fade into nothingness in the face of eternity, and that there's no guarantee that tomorrow a serial killer won't break in and end it all for us and our families. So we all have our ways of dispelling these fears, and a god-belief is just one of them. Don't nonbelievers have something similar? We delve into our studies, our hobbies, or our jobs and try to forget how vastly insignificant we are; we tell ourselves there's nothing we can do but kick back and enjoy life while we can, so we think pleasant thoughts and do whatever feels good. But aren't we all "worshiping" something? The purpose of life, it seems, is to escape the natural sense of despair that comes with such a mundane reality by occupying your mind with something else, which for many people is organized religion. For others, like I said earlier, it's a hobby, the rat race, self-improvement... anything you set your mind to.
In other words, the purpose of life is to find a purpose.

Yes? No? Thoughts?[/quote

God isn't a man made religion. He is my peace and security. If hobbies and pleasant thoughts is all you need to make you happy and secure in these crazy times that's fine but I need more.

 

[Received]

From a philosophical standing, the difference between God-in-our-minds-only and God-out-there is pragmatically: nada. That's the idea behind the "leap", right? There's an (to paraphrase Pascal) an infinite chasm that keeps reason from ascertaining God even if God existed. God is scientifically unfalsifiable, and metaphysically possible, but far from probable. Metaphysics is an art, after all; it necessarily involves assumptions, or else there are no possible starting points. The theists start with one, with the assumption that their fired-up intuition through religious experience is valid; atheists reject this intuitive validity, or perhaps haven't even reached the point of experiencing it in the same way.

 

[R3quiem]

I agree with the OP for the most part.

The issue I have is whether the activity that one decides to delve into or "worship" is potentially dangerous to others (mentally or physically).

Islam as an example, as your view would hold, exists because worshipers need something to distract themselves. Islam has some arguably hateful passages in its Qur'an, and many extremist Muslims kill people for Islam. Many moderate Muslims support extremist Muslims in times of crisis. If they put their distracts into, say, being workaholics or hobbyists or something, instead of Islam, that problem wouldn't exist to the degree that it does. The same could be said about fundamentalist Christians and their relationship to homosexuals or science.

Moderates support fundamentalists (whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or whatever) whether they like it or not.

Can you afford to be wrong?

Can you?

 

[quatona]

So, you live and then... you die... and you will be dead a lot longer then you are alive. I would suggest start thinking about that.

Funny thing is I have been non-existing for ages. What´s there to think about? "You will be dead", although being a grammatically correct statement (and can be understood as a contrast to "being alive") is a contradiction in terms. If "you are dead" there´s no "you" to be dead anymore.

 

[quatona]

Can you afford to be wrong?

Is this, by any chance, the beginning of the line of reasoning that we should believe in the worst, most cruel god conceivable - because this is the god can least afford to be wrong about?

Apart from the fact that our state of possibly being wrong lies in the nature of things and is unavoidable, it is my conviction that if there´s a good god we can afford to be wrong about this god´s existence.

 

[visionary]

...but not in the way you think. I've been doing a lot of thinking about religion and psychology lately, and here's what I've come up with.
There is probably no God, in the sense of an all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the universe. However, God is very much alive in the minds of believers, almost like a placebo god. People pray to God for guidance, for courage, for hope, for forgiveness, for success... for anything they want. Many of the things prayed for are attainable emotional states, and when they pray to achieve these states, they expect to, and when they expect to, they do. In this way, God is very real to them, but really it's their belief in God that's working in their lives, not the actual God, which doesn't exist. It is a manifestation of something we all have within us, believers and nonbelievers alike; the fulfillment of our need for hope, significance, a grand scheme of things. We hate to think that we're practically alone in this universe, that everything we do will fade into nothingness in the face of eternity, and that there's no guarantee that tomorrow a serial killer won't break in and end it all for us and our families. So we all have our ways of dispelling these fears, and a god-belief is just one of them. Don't nonbelievers have something similar? We delve into our studies, our hobbies, or our jobs and try to forget how vastly insignificant we are; we tell ourselves there's nothing we can do but kick back and enjoy life while we can, so we think pleasant thoughts and do whatever feels good. But aren't we all "worshiping" something? The purpose of life, it seems, is to escape the natural sense of despair that comes with such a mundane reality by occupying your mind with something else, which for many people is organized religion. For others, like I said earlier, it's a hobby, the rat race, self-improvement... anything you set your mind to.
In other words, the purpose of life is to find a purpose.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

For a lot of people... you are right .. that is exactly what they experience. But for a few, who do actually connect with the Living God, not even close.

While the different authors of the Bible tried to explain the vast difference in understand comes from meeting God, they still met Him and were changed. God is real, and He is all that He says He is, and He is coming and it will be in all His Glory.

I would not compare those whom you have discribed pretty accurately with those who have not truly met with God and are fooling themselves...

With a few who really "know" Him.. from experience. God is as real as real can be and He is not to be taken lightly.

 

[R3quiem]

From a philosophical standing, the difference between God-in-our-minds-only and God-out-there is pragmatically: nada. That's the idea behind the "leap", right? There's an (to paraphrase Pascal) an infinite chasm that keeps reason from ascertaining God even if God existed. God is scientifically unfalsifiable, and metaphysically possible, but far from probable. Metaphysics is an art, after all; it necessarily involves assumptions, or else there are no possible starting points. The theists start with one, with the assumption that their fired-up intuition through religious experience is valid; atheists reject this intuitive validity, or perhaps haven't even reached the point of experiencing it in the same way.

I agree with this post except for the bolded part.

I think that metaphysics, if anything, should start with questions- not assumptions. Starting with assumptions is almost always a recipe for error.

 

[Received]

Assumptions in the sense that proof doesn't satisfy. You should start with questions; assumptions (i.e., unprovable assertions, typically intuitively verified) are the starting points of stated doctrines. If you really look to it, intuitive conclusions are the starting points -- they're assumptions precisely because they're based in our intuition, and there's no philosophical justification for these intuitive beliefs without the assumption that they're worth holding.

 

[Taure]

So what the OP is saying that religion exists and that it makes people feel good? And that non-religious people have other sources of feeling good? And that we need something to make us feel good because otherwise the thought of death would be too miserable to bear?

<_<

Have I missed something here? When did this become something radical?