My intent was not to say we're saved through works. I do believe I put in my original post that I believe we are saved through Grace. That is what I believe. We are saved through the grace that God gave us on the cross, and through the grace he gives us to get through each day.
OK.
THAT is what I'm talking about. I hate the idea that one of the main reasons to do good on earth is so you'll get rewarded in the hereafter. I feel that it cheapens the reason for doing a good deed. In fact the case could be argued that doing a good deed for reward no longer makes it a truly good deed, but it becomes the means to a very selfish end.
I got you.
I've thought about this as well. I'd have thought good deeds should be done simply for the love of God, not so God will give you something in return, because isn't that like using good deeds as a means to another ends, one other than God?
Also throw into this Jesus' statements like:
Matthew 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
It almost sounds to me like the righteous are like "Huh? We did good stuff? When?", whereas I'd have thought a person working for rewards would know that they do that stuff already.
I don't have an answer to this sorry, let me know if you sort it out because I'd be curious to hear it.
I'm also afraid of falling into a pit trap of thinking that because I'm a Christian my good deeds are somehow better than an Atheists good deeds. I feel that thinking also pervades the Christian church because of verses in Isaiah that say all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags because of our sin.
That's true... IF you're using them as bribes for God, yeah? For example, say when you're a kid your mum tells you to clean your room, but instead of that you clean the whole house except for your room. Is that obedience? No, it's rebellion, so all that stuff you just did is not good at all. Well, God demands perfection so we cannot just do a bunch of good stuff in hopes that this will somehow meet that demand, hence the need for Christ's obedience on our behalf, you know the rest.
But I don't think Isaiah is talking about righteous deeds altogether. This is because you have a bloke like Abraham who is described by St James as follows:
James 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And yes, I know that looks like it totally flies in the face of what St Paul is teaching about justification being by faith apart from works. There's an explanation to this that I won't go into detail here, but it's to do with the original language using a word translated "justification" having more than one sense to it.
I know the verse is talking about how deeds done with a sinful prideful heart repel God, that he doesn't care about them. Yet somehow that verse has been translated by so many people in my life that by merely being a Christian gives our good deeds merit in the sight of God, and somehow that makes our good deeds better than anyone else who isn't a Christian.
Well put it this way: if a kid in the street hands me $10, is that good or bad? It depends on the motive. If it's so I can go into a convenience store and buy him a pack of smokes, then it's bad. If it's because I'm a homeless guy and it's on that kid's heart to care for the poor so he gives me his pocket money, that's different.
Now say if you define the difference between right and wrong by God's law, which demands love for God and neighbour as yourself. According to James again, violation of one part of God's law involves breaking the whole thing, yeah? For example, if I go to church and sing songs about how much I love Jesus when I am in fact unrepenant about beating my Mrs at home, then there's something wrong with this picture. It works the other way around though: if I'm a humanist and reject the God of the Bible as not worth my time even if he existed, yet do "moral" stuff, perhaps in order to prove myself a good person, then I am rejecting God's standards of goodness in favour of my own, I'm not repenting, and I'm doing wickedness.
My main point to the post is this: I feel like the American church is getting the concept of good deeds WAY wrong, and that I've been getting them way wrong, and the only way to get it right is to leave religion out of outreach entirely.
Maybe it is, I'm not an American but in New Zealand our churches aren't in very good shape either, but I would encourage you not to leave "religion" per se but instead seek God in your Bible. Then you can show the church how it ought to be done.
Going back to the grace of God: Can that grace extend to corners of the globe where Jesus will never be heard of? Can an individual who never heard the name Jesus, or even knew about the judeo Christian God, rely on the grace of whatever deity they know and they will be saved by that dependance on Grace?
One of my more unorthodox beliefs is yes, they can. In every religion around the world there is a branch or sect that relies on the grace of that faiths deity. I believe that a dependance on grace, and not works, is one of the reasons no man can be held unaccountable, even if they grew up in the wilds of Africa.
Yeah, Pure Land Buddhism is another one that gets brought up.
God will have mercy on who he will have mercy, God can save whoever he will, this does not ultimately depend on mankind because otherwise it would not be grace, right?
But at the same time the Bible does say:
Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Romans 10:14
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
If God has some other work around or exception we don't know about, OK. But that's the thing: we don't know if he does and therefore cannot assume he does.
If a man can be saved through dependance on grace alone, then why was it so freakin' important that Jesus die?
Jesus' death accomplished more than justification. It also accomplished
regeneration. Here's a reference to this idea:
Romans 6:6
We know that our old selfa was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
In a nutshell:
- Mankind is a physical and spiritual creature.
- Mankind is all initially born in a state of spiritual death: bad by nature.
- Mankind subsequently commits sin and become guilty: bad by record.
- Justification is a legal thing and deals to the bad record problem.
- Regeneration (aka born-again) is a spiritual thing and deals to the bad nature.
- God never saves a person without both of these things.
- A justified and regenerated person still has indwelling sin.
- This is why Christians have sin they are repenting of.
As for why God chose to accomplish all this via Christ, this is to do with an idea in the Bible theologians label "federal headship." When you see St Paul talking about things like Jesus being our head (or lord), that means he is like the head of a new line of people. A person is either on team Satan or team Jesus, and if you're in team Jesus he takes responsibility for your sin and you get the benefits of him as your lord.
As for why God chose it to be this specific way (why, why, why?), I can only come to the ultimate conclusion that's the way he chose it to be, it reflects the Trinity in some way I'm not entirely sure about, etc.
I'm confused. I don't want to belong to a faith that teaches it's got the answer to the only way to get to Heaven, because that means ALOT of people who lived ordinary, regular joe lives get to spend an eternity away from God simply because they don't believe in a mans 33 years of ministry, his 3 hours of dying, his 3 days of being dead, and then his Resurrection and ascension.
This is a one-sided view of mankind.
You need to see unsaved mankind as sinful by nature and guilty by deed, otherwise grace will simply not make sense.
So you say that we don't go to hell for not believing in Jesus, we go to hell for our sins. Alright, let's look at Joseph Stalin. Do I believe he warrants eternity in heaven? No. Apart from not believing in Jesus, he also lived an evil life. He killed more people than Hitler did, probably had a weird sex life, and is generally considered one of the most evil men of the 20th century. He lived 75 years.
You're telling me, that 75 years of sinful living is enough to warrant an eternity (as in it's so big it is out of time itself) in hell, when those 75 years don't even show up as a blip on the entire time line of the universe itself?
Yes, because if you went and visited Stalin in hell, you would find that he was unrepentant with regards to love for God and neighbour as himself. (Unless God makes a person born-again in hell.) He might be sad that he's burning, but it's like the old problem of being sorry you got caught rather than being sorry out of love for the person you offended, in this case God.
Put simply, behind an unsaved person's sins is the heart. When the heart is bad, it's pointing in a direction other than God. It is against God. Sins point in eternal directions, do you know what I mean? I'm not talking about sins in a Christians life; St Paul explains how this is different in Romans 7; Christians have good hearts but sin that resides in something he calls the "flesh."
That's not Justice! If we are created in Gods image, we have a basic understanding of his concept of Justice, we understand what it is to be just and merciful because of God. A good judge in a courtroom isn't going to put a pot smoker on death row. That's not justice, and yet we expect a perfectly just God(from whom we get our understanding of Justice) to put every single non believer on the planet in eternal death row simply because they sinned?
Absolutely, because God is just that holy. He hates sin, will not stand for it, will not tolerate it, and give you hell for it.
Unless he executes punishment elsewhere: on Christ, on your behalf. That's grace.
There are so many holes in Christianity. It's an imperfect religion and because I'm imperfect my relationship with God will always be imperfect. I will always have these questions that cannot be answered.
Do you consider yourself a good person?
Do you consider yourself a good person relative to God's demands: love for God and neighbour as yourself?
A quick look at some of God's demands will expose your guilt.
For example, have you ever lied to someone, stolen from someone, used God's name in vain, lusted after someone (in an adulterous sense), etc? No one is innocent, except Jesus, and you don't measure up to him.
Now you can repent and trust in Christ's performance and death as punishment on your behalf... or you can pay yourself and end up in hell.
Either God pays your eternal debt or you will pay eternally. That's pretty much how it goes down.
Isn't it easier then to say I believe in God, I believe he loves me, I believe he wants me to take care of the world around me and do it rather than to put a label to it?
Maybe, but there is no love without truth.
Again I am so sorry this is so long. Like I said in my last post I'm angry that Christianity is what it's become, and I feel like we've missed something. Am I confused by my relationship with God, and how he relates in my life. Yes, yes I am, but I'm not angry at him. It's the weirdest feeling.
I hope God has mercy on you and helps you sort this thing out.
