I don't want Orthodox union with Rome

[ArmyMatt]

What are the main difference between the Orthodox and the Roman church? I do not know. I know i could Google it but it would be nice to see some personal examples from true believers. Thanks

in addition to what Greg rightly posted, we disagree concerning the filioque and grace (so we disagree concerning God and soteriology). we disagree on echatology (no Purgatory for us).

 

[stevenhorr]

In my experience, while the Orthodox Church looks great on paper, the reality is that for all the talk of avoiding ecumenism, having superior services, inflexibility regarding "tradition", and so on, it is infected with a kind of exclusivistic triumphalism and many of its members succumb to spiritual pride and a 'hyperdox' rigidity... not to mention rampant ethnocentrism in many jurisdictions. Having been both Orthodox and Catholic, I have seen that members of both suffer from many of the same sins and that a perfect theology rarely produces saints. I much prefer the Catholic attitude of charity towards the Orthodox and other faiths than the exclusivistic and anti-ecumenical (and sometimes borderline pharisaical) attitude of many Orthodox (often held by fanatical converts).

 

[stevenhorr]

in addition to what Greg rightly posted, we disagree concerning the filioque and grace (so we disagree concerning God and soteriology). we disagree on echatology (no Purgatory for us).

Many of these concepts have been examined by such Orthodox thinkers as Bishop Ware and considered to be far less divisive, and often more an issue of semantic variances, than previously thought. A more thorough study of the filioque from a variety of Catholic thinkers (not just from anti-Catholic thinkers) is recommended; I cannot imagine how one having endeavored to investigate it in this way could believe that Catholic and Orthodox Christians worship a different God altogether. And while Purgatory is not professed by Orthodox, the difference between the eschatology of these two faiths is not so different when one considers that in both faiths the dead are prayed for and spiritual growth continues after death... and that's not even to mention the implications raised by the Toll House belief held by some Orthodox.

 

[Anhelyna]

Steven - I would remind you that you are a guest here in TAW - and as such you may post in fellowship - and we will welcome you here in fellowship.

If you wish to debate about these matters - there is a thread at present in St Justin's http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-union-with-rome.7911728/page-2#post-68706288
where you may debate and state that you feel that Orthodoxy is wrong in the way matters such as these are 'handled'

 

[stevenhorr]

Okay, thank you. I suppose I can't just post anything anywhere here... I should probably have another look at the forum rules!

Steven - I would remind you that you are a guest here in TAW - and as such you may post in fellowship - and we will welcome you here in fellowship.

If you wish to debate about these matters - there is a thread at present in St Justin's http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-union-with-rome.7911728/page-2#post-68706288
where you may debate and state that you feel that Orthodoxy is wrong in the way matters such as these are 'handled'

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

I for the life can't figure out why the sin of homosexuality is such a giant "crusade," for some people. Like, I get it, it's a sin but so too is a great many things, like for example alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, immodesty, etc. I've know some in some parishes I've been apart of where people will even get red in the face about gays being talked about but saying nothing about the 14 ye old wearing the short skirt to Liturgy. What's with the fixation? Not to be off topi but yeah. Plus divorce has been a big issue in probably every church.

 

[buzuxi02]

Many of these concepts have been examined by such Orthodox thinkers as Bishop Ware and considered to be far less divisive, and often more an issue of semantic variances, than previously thought.

And while Purgatory is not professed by Orthodox, the difference between the eschatology of these two faiths is not so different when one considers that in both faiths the dead are prayed for and spiritual growth continues after death... and that's not even to mention the implications raised by the Toll House belief held by some Orthodox.

Ecumenism is considered a heresy in the Orthodox Church. This is why even the EP carefully says that his dialogue is just to inform others and not ecumenism.

The fact that latins equate prayers for the dead with purgatory is further evidence that we dont have the same understandings. We see from the Fathers of the Church that even pagan priests can find relief in prayers for the dead. We see that the more pious and saintly the departed was, the more prayers he recieves due to the unbroken bond of love. Thus in Orthodoxy prayers for the dead benefit those who have no hope, benefit those souls whose salvation is assured and in turn benefit us who are alive who pray for the pious and give alms in their name.
In the latin dogma of purgatory all souls are already assured of salvation, prayers for the dead just speed up the foregiveness of their sins. We do not view prayers for the deadin such a singular manner.

As far as the Filioque, whats taught today is not what the latins taught 500 years ago. Centuries ago they made it clear in their councils that the fillioque means a double origination of the Spirit.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Many of these concepts have been examined by such Orthodox thinkers as Bishop Ware and considered to be far less divisive, and often more an issue of semantic variances, than previously thought. A more thorough study of the filioque from a variety of Catholic thinkers (not just from anti-Catholic thinkers) is recommended; I cannot imagine how one having endeavored to investigate it in this way could believe that Catholic and Orthodox Christians worship a different God altogether. And while Purgatory is not professed by Orthodox, the difference between the eschatology of these two faiths is not so different when one considers that in both faiths the dead are prayed for and spiritual growth continues after death... and that's not even to mention the implications raised by the Toll House belief held by some Orthodox.

the problem is that our saints have said otherwise. recently glorified Sts Paisios and Porphyrios have said that concerning Roman heresy, not to mention those who dealt with some of these issues when they first came on the scene. externally we do look a lot alike in many ways, but our approach to the Faith is very different.

 

[stevenhorr]

the problem is that our saints have said otherwise. recently glorified Sts Paisios and Porphyrios have said that concerning Roman heresy, not to mention those who dealt with some of these issues when they first came on the scene. externally we do look a lot alike in many ways, but our approach to the Faith is very different.

I adore St. Paisos and have his biography. In my opinion, Catholics tend to emphasize what does unite the two churches while the Orthodox generally tend to emphasize what divides them. From my experience in both traditions, the differences are often superficial, cultural, aesthetic, or theoretical. Both traditions are ultimately Eucharistic, and although theosis is emphasized in Orthodoxy, theosis (divinization, I think it is referred to as in the west) as an aim is present in the Catholic Church, too. And practically speaking, in day to day life, there is not that much difference, in my experience. I've encountered just as many marginal, luke warm, cultural Orthodox Christians as Catholic ones. Both traditions have certain strengths and weaknesses, in my opinion, and some Catholics, too, are guilty of the triumphalism I spoke of earlier. Personally, I think it is time for Christians of all walks to emphasize what unites us more than what divides us, as the enemies of Christ (scientism, atheism, radical Islam, satanism, etc.) are everywhere and seemingly gaining momentum.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

My problem with that is that there are real threats against Christianity from within.

 

[stevenhorr]

There simply is no perfect church, in my sincere opinion, and there are good, devout Christians in every church. But perhaps it is purity of doctrine some here are more concerned with? It's the pure of heart, not the pure of doctrine, who will see God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You're right, "gay" sex is no big woop. It only prompted a flood and an ark and got an entire ancient city wiped off the face of the map. Nothing worrisome there.

You're really comparing apples and oranges here deflecting from the vile nature and evil of sodomy. Ok, why don't we focus on alcoholism? Well, nobody is trying to legalize alcoholism and say it's a beautiful thing we should all partake in! As far as immodesty, I hear my priest making comments about how parishioners should dress in response to some eyebrow-raising, "healthy"-looking twenty-somethings in scant wear. I also hear a lot of people whispering their disgust.

Immodesty leads to promiscuity and sexual sins, and I don't know many Orthodox folks who are ok with promiscuity. Do you? I must be in a weird parish, because practically all the folks I talk with preach abstinence?

The LGBT lobby is throwing their filth in our face 24/7 in film, television, radio, print, online, you name it. We are being brainwashed to accept this nonsense, so I think it's quite obvious why Orthodox Christians should not only want nothing of it, but fight the good fight against a soul-destroying lifestyle that is steadily being digested into our youth as a healthy option for living.

I for the life can't figure out why the sin of homosexuality is such a giant "crusade," for some people. Like, I get it, it's a sin but so too is a great many things, like for example alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, immodesty, etc. I've know some in some parishes I've been apart of where people will even get red in the face about gays being talked about but saying nothing about the 14 ye old wearing the short skirt to Liturgy. What's with the fixation? Not to be off topi but yeah. Plus divorce has been a big issue in probably every church.

 

[Lukaris]

There simply is no perfect church, in my sincere opinion, and there are good, devout Christians in every church. But perhaps it is purity of doctrine some here are more concerned with? It's the pure of heart, not the pure of doctrine, who will see God.

I agree with you as far as God knowing who His people are and it is not for me to be presumptuous & judgmental since I am probably the hypocrite. Non Orthodox Christians (past & present) such as Bill Graham, Mother Theresa, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Dave Wilkerson etc. etc. who I am sure have entered or will enter the heavenly kingdom make me realize I must really work out my salvation with fear & trembling. This can also be tenuous though with the obvious deterioration of "mainline" Protestantism, movements like "liberation" theology in the Catholic Church etc.

I truly believe that it is the Holy Spirit sustaining Orthodoxy that sustains enough "orthodoxy" for the non Orthodox to spread the Gospel as best as possible. I am not speaking in terms of humanity on this point since the same virtues & sins are shared by all professing Christians. Without the Orthodox Church there is no true worship of the Trinity on earth.

 

[stevenhorr]

While I may not entirely agree with everything you wrote, I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from, Lukaris. Thanks.

 

[Tallguy88]

You're right, "gay" sex is no big woop. It only prompted a flood and an ark and got an entire ancient city wiped off the face of the map. Nothing worrisome there.

You're really comparing apples and oranges here deflecting from the vile nature and evil of sodomy. Ok, why don't we focus on alcoholism? Well, nobody is trying to legalize alcoholism and say it's a beautiful thing we should all partake in! As far as immodesty, I hear my priest making comments about how parishioners should dress in response to some eyebrow-raising, "healthy"-looking twenty-somethings in scant wear. I also hear a lot of people whispering their disgust.

Immodesty leads to promiscuity and sexual sins, and I don't know many Orthodox folks who are ok with promiscuity. Do you? I must be in a weird parish, because practically all the folks I talk with preach abstinence?

The LGBT lobby is throwing their filth in our face 24/7 in film, television, radio, print, online, you name it. We are being brainwashed to accept this nonsense, so I think it's quite obvious why Orthodox Christians should not only want nothing of it, but fight the good fight against a soul-destroying lifestyle that is steadily being digested into our youth as a healthy option for living.

Where are you getting that the flood was caused by gay sex? Is that from the saints?

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

You're right, "gay" sex is no big woop. It only prompted a flood and an ark and got an entire ancient city wiped off the face of the map. Nothing worrisome there.

Again a lot of sins lead to a lot of cities and tribes being destroyed and I don't think it was specifically butt sex that led to the flood or perhaps you could provide a verse brother?

You're really comparing apples and oranges here deflecting from the vile nature and evil of sodomy. Ok, why don't we focus on alcoholism? Well, nobody is trying to legalize alcoholism and say it's a beautiful thing we should all partake in!

Because IT IS! Take for example this, I love sports, last night I watched the PBC matches and do you realize how many advertisements I saw for alcoholic beverages? It's even worse when watching the NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. All of these adds feature scantily clad women, illicit behavior and so on essentially promoting it as part and parcel to youth and or just having fun. Never mind it has for millennia destroyed good men and women, families, even a whole people like the Native Americans and yet in North American and European culture is condoned, encouraged, promoted, etc.

It's sinful, shameful, and unbelievable, really. There's nothing more sad or pathetic than someone who's three sheets to the wind.

As far as immodesty, I hear my priest making comments about how parishioners should dress in response to some eyebrow-raising, "healthy"-looking twenty-somethings in scant wear. I also hear a lot of people whispering their disgust.

Obvi he would since you know, he's a priest.

Immodesty leads to promiscuity and sexual sins, and I don't know many Orthodox folks who are ok with promiscuity. Do you? I must be in a weird parish, because practically all the folks I talk with preach abstinence?

I never said they didn't but I've seen with my own eyes actions in various parishes to be different. I again don't understand such laser focus on a grocery list of sins and not just sin out right.

WWJD?

The LGBT lobby is throwing their filth in our face 24/7 in film, television, radio, print, online, you name it.

So is the alcohol industry, fashion industry, Hollywood, big church Protestants exploiting good folk with their heresies, you name it. Yet I hear not one person calling to execute the blasphemous as is commanded in the OT.

We are being brainwashed to accept this nonsense, so I think it's quite obvious why Orthodox Christians should not only want nothing of it, but fight the good fight against a soul-destroying lifestyle that is steadily being digested into our youth as a healthy option for living.

Meanwhile, there's a heroin and methamphetamine epidemic across the nation and still people are more concerned and there is whole groups organized to berate homosexuals. Technically speaking there's a lot of other perversity heterosexual couples too both married and otherwise which lead to suicide, divorce, murder.

What about child molestation? Not to be crass but why should I care what two poofs do behind closed doors compared to all the other things happening around us?

 

[ArmyMatt]

From my experience in both traditions, the differences are often superficial, cultural, aesthetic, or theoretical.

the saints say otherwise.

Both traditions are ultimately Eucharistic, and although theosis is emphasized in Orthodoxy, theosis (divinization, I think it is referred to as in the west) as an aim is present in the Catholic Church, too.

and yet we disagree on what happens during the Eucharist.

And practically speaking, in day to day life, there is not that much difference, in my experience.

the saints say otherwise.

I've encountered just as many marginal, luke warm, cultural Orthodox Christians as Catholic ones.

totally true, as have all of us on here sadly.

Both traditions have certain strengths and weaknesses, in my opinion, and some Catholics, too, are guilty of the triumphalism I spoke of earlier.

even if true, that doesn't matter. one tradition is correct, one is incorrect, or both are incorrect.

Personally, I think it is time for Christians of all walks to emphasize what unites us more than what divides us, as the enemies of Christ (scientism, atheism, radical Islam, satanism, etc.) are everywhere and seemingly gaining momentum.

which will never happen until we agree on who Christ is. at present, we don't.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There simply is no perfect church, in my sincere opinion, and there are good, devout Christians in every church.

could not disagree more with the first part of this (especially since this cannot be supported by Scripture). and cannot agree more with the latter part. there are many heterodox that put me to shame in terms of their faith and piety. but that does not mean they are in the Church.

But perhaps it is purity of doctrine some here are more concerned with? It's the pure of heart, not the pure of doctrine, who will see God.

and you cannot divide purity of doctrine from the purity of heart, since the pure doctrine allows one's heart to be pure. salvation is also to know the God and Father and the One Whom He sent. impure doctrine muddles that vision.

 

[truefiction1]

I'm completely burned out on the "Our church is the TRUE church" banter. If it helps you in your faith to believe that your church is right and all others are wrong, then I suppose you must do what you must. The notion that one tradition is "correct" and the others "incorrect" is black and white thinking of the worst and most destructive kind. The Orthodox Church has its beauty, no doubt! But your efforts are well wasted on me. I was Orthodox for almost seven years and have read extensively of the Eastern (and Western) saints. The Spirit blows where it will. I am little interested in Christian tribalism or polemics. And "pure doctrine", I repeat, does not make a saint. A broken and contrite heart, on the other hand, does (and I'm quite certain perfect doctrine has little to do with this).

No.

 

[truefiction1]

Oops. Can't delete...?

No.