I don't want Orthodox union with Rome

[mark46]

Mark46,

Maybe you are right. But just as union with Anglicans today is unthinkable for Orthodoxy, because Anglicans have sadly changed their teachings regarding a number of social issues, as well as the nature of the priesthood, so also it seems that union with the RCC is becoming more difficult, since some in the RC Church would have it change its traditional teachings regarding issues such as homosexuality.

Such change may enable Roman Catholics to dialogue about union more seriously with the Anglican Church (which would be frightening for RC traditionalists).

But from an Orthodox perspective, it seems like the RC Church is moving farther away, not closer, thereby militating against reunion.

The Roman Catholic Church has not changed its traditional teachings in any way, especially with regard to homosexuality. This pope, and those since Vatican II, has allowed folks to vent in public, rather than have folks grumble at their own meetings. The pope will then choose, as those before him, NOT to change any of the dogma or doctrine of the Church.

 

[mark46]

The Catholic Church is not going to change teachings on homosexuality. Talking about those issues does not mean those issues are up for reversal - because that cannot be done. The Catholic Church is not a protestant church, reversing on previous beliefs. No bishop or pope in the present has the right to contradict the faith of the past.

Talking about those issues is exactly that. It's taking an active role and giving a voice to the serious issues of the day. It is an discussion of how to approach these, not a discussion on changing the faith.

Union with the Anglicans is impossible now. When they stopped validly ordaining clergy, that was pretty much it. Their clergy and generally not clergy. It's like a union with Baptists. But when they started having women as their clergy, it made it impossible.

The Anglican bishops and clergy have been rejected by the RCC for some time, long before the Anglicans ordained female priests and bishops.

 

[mark46]

The title of this thread certainly drew me in.

me too

 

[mark46]

Sorry, I meant to post this in the Orthodox forum and was really eliciting Orthodox opinion. But since it is here, please let me know your thoughts on the Synod and union with Orthodoxy.

This could be an interesting exchange of views.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought that was your intention.

I do disagree with you primary premise. I don't think that the changes in the RCC over the past 50 years are primarily what separates us. I believe that it is much more the actions of the RCC in the filioque, and in the various additional doctrines expounded ex cathedra, especially the role of the pope, which was even made more clear in Vatican II.

When Catholics and Orthodox (except for Moscow) met in in Revenna, it was these issues that needed to be clarified. Much has been accomplished, but there is a long, long way to go.

As an aside, I believe the patriarchs of the Churches are much closer to one another than many of their followers are willing to accept. But that isn't really that unusual.

 

[stray bullet]

The Anglican bishops and clergy have been rejected by the RCC for some time, long before the Anglicans ordained female priests and bishops.

Yes, since they rejected the Church.

 

[Tallguy88]

ADMIN HAT

Thread moved from OBOB to St. Justin Martyr in TAW.

 

[ArmyMatt]

there will never be union with Rome until she repents of her heresies and innovations. we disagree on God, the saints, sacraments, eschatology, and the role of bishops. until we get on the same page concerning this stuff, all else is just a fantasy.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

there will never be union with Rome until she repents of her heresies and innovations. we disagree on God, the saints, sacraments, eschatology, and the role of bishops. until we get on the same page concerning this stuff, all else is just a fantasy.

Well said Debby Downer

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well said Debby Downer

I ain't a downer at all. for all of our Roman friends, the chrism is waiting.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Orthodox branches aren't even united with each other, mostly out of ethnic pride and protecting their own power base within their own sects. Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox have problems with each other.

The head Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox snubbed St Pope John Paul II, which pretty much shows the lack of Christian charity on his part.

I attended an Antiochian Orthodox wedding. It was held in a Greek Orthodox Church, because the groom's church was too far away. The couple being married could not have a Mass celebrated by their own priest in that Greek Orthodox church, for reasons I'm not sure of, and they were only allowed to rent out the church building for the wedding ceremony itself. In talking with the groom, who is devote Antiochian Orthodox, there seems to be a spiritual ego that is defended between the Orthodox churches which goes back thousands of years. He has no use for Rome and there was little acceptance of my spirituality even thought we agreed on many aspects. I have read Orthodox spiritual works, he wouldn't even consider reading Catholic works, seeing them as inferior.

Some like the Greek Orthodox Patriarchs have already signed a unity of faith with Rome, but not institutionally.

Roman Catholics are allowed to receive the Holy Eucharist at Greek Orthodox Masses and Orthodox members can receive at Roman Catholic Masses. However, the Orthodox Church does not allow their members to receive at Roman Catholic Masses and of course they don't allow Roman Catholics to receive at theirs. Go figure.

As you can see from the previous posts calling Rome heretical, its obvious that the posters are clueless about being Christian, never mind their ideas about the differences.

The previous two Pope's and Patriarchs have been open to each other, so why there are members of the Orthodox Church who are opposed to this is beyond me ?

Jim

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

The communion is closed to only Orthodox because the Church sees itself as the one and only, holy, apostolic, Catholic Church. So while the RCC may recognize us as a 'sister church' we do not given the innovations that have taken place post-Schism.

We have called certain beliefs heretical because that's what we believe them to be.

I don't really get the whole disunion among jurisdictions or the charge of ethnocentricity considering I, as a Greek, have attended and been apart of numerous different parishes in my travels including Ukranian, Russian, Antiochian, Romanian, Serbian, etc.

Aside from the difference between Greek and Russian or what have you, I didn't feel out of place at all considering the liturgy is the same, the original words are the same, we do the same things, the same way, with very little if any differentiations.

I feel this is worth note considering unlike a convert I was born and raised GO, and am somewhat stuck in my ways, yet still feel at home anywhere the DL is taking place.

In fact, I would argue our collective relationship with Rome and our Oriental Orthodox brethren has never been better?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Orthodox branches aren't even united with each other, mostly out of ethnic pride and protecting their own power base within their own sects. Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox have problems with each other.

they have their political issues, but are united in faith. unlike us and Rome.

As you can see from the previous posts calling Rome heretical, its obvious that the posters are clueless about being Christian, never mind their ideas about the differences.

not really, our saints have called Rome heretical. and Roman councils have called us heretical. I think the real issue is too many have no concept of history.

The previous two Pope's and Patriarchs have been open to each other, so why there are members of the Orthodox Church who are opposed to this is beyond me ?

because Rome refuses to reject her heresies. once she does, the embrace will be with open arms. God is love and truth, so you cannot have one without the other.

 

[GregConstantine]

The doors of the Church are opened 24/7. If anyone is outside the doors, it's because they are refusing to enter.

I would recommend going to the excellent blog "Glory To God". Fr Stephen Freeman has recently done a series on what is ecumenism and what does union mean. Give it a read. He explains it a lot better than I can.

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/09/28/un-ecumenism/

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory...0/consequences-of-the-one-church-unecumenism/

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/10/02/unecumenism-and-the-sins-of-all/

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/10/07/unecumenism-the-saving-union/