I hope you do not object if I respond in pieces. There are too many important things to discuss to loose them in a "wall of text".
First, irrespective of Calvinism or Arminianism, the "not saved" (no matter why) will still be "tortured forever". Calvinism did not invent the concept of people being damned. Can you at least acknowledge that the fate of the lost is horrible WHATEVER THE REASON they were not saved (ie. "Hell" is not a result of "Calvinism".)
The difference is they had a chance, and God did not create them specifically to suffer, or at best, be the ancestors of someone who is saved in the future. At that point, not only did Christ die so that you could be saved, but multiple generations of your ancestors may be paying the price for your salvation, and unlike Christ, who's punishment for your sins was temporary, they are paying the price so that you would be created and saved.... forever. If you come from a long line of heathen and are the first person saved in your family, are an only child, and sterile, then thousands of people continually pay the price so that you can be born and be saved. God created thousands of people to suffer forever..... just so that you can be born and be saved.
I can accept that Christ suffered terribly, but temporarily, and was risen and raised to Glory, having bought an uncountable number of people saved from hell.. the price was worth it.
But say the Gospel was that Christ is in hell forever in your place, suffering forever in your place, so that you might be saved? Would you still say that it was worth it or would you wish you had never been born so that the Son of God didn't have to suffer on your account forever?
Now your ancestors are not the Son of God, but there are still thousands of them at the very least, if they are all suffering forever, and never had a chance of salvation, just so that you could be born and be saved, how selfish do you have to be to consider that price to be worth it?
Having everyone have a choice to accept or reject Christ at least, means they all had a chance, and were not created specifically to suffer just so they could be ancestors of someone who does get saved. I doubt any of our heathen ancestors would praise God for creating them to suffer forever just so it could result in you or I who get saved. No they wail and gnash their teeth and hate God forever.
My Grandfather was quite outspoken as an Atheist, I don't have many doubts as to what is happening to him at the moment, and I highly doubt you could convince him that I was worth his eternal suffering, vs never having been born at all.
In Romans 9 Paul said he'd willingly forsake his salvation if it would save all of Israel in his place. I do not believe that Paul would desire the reverse, all of Israel condemned so that he personally would be saved.
Second, let us take a closer look at this "everyone chooses" option. Few people really think hard about what this means. Unless you are prepared to throw Christianity out the window, then the ONLY way to God is through Christ [Those who believe are not judged, those who do not believe have been judged already - John 3:18]. The Gospel reached the Americas around 1500. So every person born in North, Central and South America from AD 33 to 1500 only had to believe in someone they had never heard of to be saved ... because SALVATION depends on the person choosing Christ (because, as you insist, God is fair). So did all the people living in Europe from AD 33 to 1500 really have the same chance to "choose to believe" as someone living in the Americas at that same time period? You have not really solved the problem of "fairness", have you. You actually made it worse. Some people had Lots of chances to hear and believe while most people had ZERO chances to hear and believe.
Remember, the idea that it depends on people rather than God is not from Calvinism.
and honestly I don't know, about how merciful God might be to people who were just.. born before the Gospel, and had never been taught. There are cases like the Chinese Emperor Gwangwu, who ruled China at the time that Christ was alive, and he witnessed the darkening of the sun and moon during the crucifixion and had it recorded in his annals. He actually even knew to some extent what had happened (he was disturbed and wouldn't tend to official imperial business for days, because "the man from heaven died", but he proclaimed that all crimes had been put on one man and amnesty had been declared from heaven. This is in the book of the latter Han, the annals of many Chinese emperors.
So there are some cases at least where the gospel gets out to people in nearly unbelievable ways.
There is also 1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Is it possible that the unlearned before the Gospel would still get that choice to know the name by which they might be saved? I don't know.
Third, what if we view Calvinism from the Calvinist perspective. We can start out with everyone having the complete freedom to obey God or not. To believe God or not. However, as John 3:19-20 states men hide from God because they do evil things. Worse yet, Romans 3:10-12 tells us the EVERYBODY falls into this group that refuses to come near God or to believe. Under your "free will, everyone chooses" plan, everyone had a chance and NOBODY accepted God's offer. Therefore, God can choose to do absolutely nothing about it and the result would be 100% damnation. It has nothing to do with God pushing anyone away or not offering salvation or making it impossible. The simple reason that everyone would stay damned is that everyone is "bent" by sin and fears to approach God.
However, God was not willing to do nothing and let everyone perish in their free will and fallen nature. So God did EVERYTHING [Read Ephesians 2:1-10 for a definition of everything]. Did God do everything for everyone? No. Why? I have no idea, only God knows the answer.
Ultimately, the damned have Arminian Free Will and use it to reject salvation. The saved are drawn (irresistible wooed) by God and can take no pride or credit in their salvation. The only merit in the elect is "God chose me" - as Ephesians 2:1-4 says, we were JUST LIKE THE REST. One common lump of clay with nothing to make us special - except His touch MAKING us His.
[I need to drive home now, so I will delay my next response.]
James 4
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
So what do we say of God if He knows it is good to save people, but chooses not to save?
What do we do with 2 Peter 3:9?
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
if He's not willing that any should perish, and the choice is 100% His whether someone can accept the gospel or not, then how does He not choose everyone? With a free will it's simple. He is respecting the free choice of a person to accept the gospel or reject it.
But if it's not free will but double predestination, then it is NOT His will that none should perish, because He had the choice entirely His and chose to not draw them.
Calvinism makes a "might makes right" God. one that can easily be feared, but difficult to love because He holds double standards. If we don't go out of our way to try to get everyone saved, we're in sin, but if God doesn't lift a finger to bring salvation to someone because ultimately our efforts don't save it's all His choice right? Well then God is holding us to a standard that He does not keep Himself.
Would it be more noble to selfishly rejoice because we were smart enough to choose well, unlike those fools that God is torturing forever?
I do not see how “Arminian Free Will” makes this better. It just gives us a reason to be arrogant instead of feeling lucky.
I don't pat myself on the back for choosing, I lament for those who don't choose and pray for them.
But if they
can't choose because God refuses to draw them, well, that looks like a bit of malice on God's part because it means God created them just to suffer forever.
How does the distinction between God chose you and you chose God impact “a life of self denial and suffering and persecution”? I simply do not see the connection.
The point is the character of God.
Ultimately, God cursed the world, made it from our home, to our prison, now we deserve for it to be our prison, but the Judge who put us all in prison can have different characters.
The Arminian Judge tells all the prisoners, how they can be paroled, because the Judge will Himself, pay our fines, though He does inform us, that if we don't accept the parole, then we'll go to the torture chambers forever (think of this as a North Korean prison or something). Nobody goes to the torture chambers without choosing to refuse the offer of parole. That makes the Judge compassionate and merciful, because He offered it to everyone.
The Calvinist Judge tells a random number of prisoners about the parole He paid for, the rest all go to the torture chambers. This makes the Judge kind of sadistic, because He had no intent of offering the prisoners going to the torture chamber parole.
This is really about something completely unrelated to “Calvinism or Arminianism”. I suspect that it is the “Problem of Evil” (How can a good God allow bad things to happen) that you are really having a problem with. Unfortunately, you do not provide enough information to really address whatever is behind this.
No that part is easy, we made choices to do evil, and if we hear the gospel as a way to atone for our evil and reject it, well then, you had a chance, and so you will be judged by your own works.
The problem is that the Calvinist understanding of God does not extend the chance at salvation to everyone, meaning He created people specifically to suffer. There's malice in that.
If I go play a simulation video game like sim city or something like that, I can build a city, a city populated with "people" and then turn on all the disasters and kill them by the thousands. I might do this, because I am evil, I have malice, and I recognize that. If I created "people" just to harm them, I am evil.
But if God creates people just to harm them..... ?
It's not about God allowing evil to exist, because evil is our fault, not His. We bring evil and death. God brings life. But if God has all the choice to determine life or death for someone based on no merit of their own but entirely His choice... then what He chooses should hold to the same standard at least, as the standard He imposes on us.
I have no doubts that my grandfather is currently in hell.
Under Arminianism, my Grandfather is there because he rejected Christ. I can accept that and accept that God is still good, I can love God.
Under Calvinism, my Grandfather is there because Christ rejected him. God seems less good here, because He had a choice to make for someone's soul and chose to torture him forever rather than save him. I can fear that God but loving him is near impossible because I'm not that selfish to just rejoice in my own salvation knowing it came at the expense of generations of ancestors. Again Christ's suffering was temporal, and He saved an uncountable multitude and it glorified Him, it was worth it. My grandfather will suffer endlessly, it will never stop, and him being born has so far.. resulted in 1 saved person, the rest of his descendants utterly reject and mock Christ. I doubt I'll ever have children, so it would just be me, that he, and most likely my mother and aunts and uncles, suffer forever, just to have resulted in me getting saved. I'm not worth that. A minimum of 7 people suffering forever for me, I do not have that kind of value. Under Calvinism, my Grandfather, and all his descendants, even myself, would have been better off never existing. I'd make that trade to spare at least 7 other people endless torture even if I never existed. I'd make that choice so fast it'd make your head spin.
If Christ was suffering forever just for me.. I'm not worth that.
So to respond to “where we love our torturer because he could have made it worse and chose not to after years of imprisonment” … All men start out in need of saving. Those that are saved, irrespective of how they get there (free will or God’s choice), pass from death to life and are now children of God - Loved by God and guaranteed to be with him in eternity. As (I think it was) Augustine said, “God had one child that never sinned and no children that never suffered.” Bad things happen. It only proves that you are still alive on a fallen world.
the respective part is how it portrays God's character.. a merciful judge who wills all to be saved.. or a judge who plays favorites and willfully tortures other prisoners forever just to glorify themselves and be feared.
