I don't knwo anymore...

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

anthony100 said:
I would say that the consensus of opinion from Biblical scholars is that the unforgivable sin is the final rejection of the Holy Spirit's witness to salvation in Christ.

How would a person know if he or she has done this?

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

RobertZ said:
How would a person know if he or she has done this?

Hello Robert

That is a good question, but unfortunately it is quite a difficult one to answer.

Once an individual has had the truth of Christ revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, if he then rejects the message of the gospel and totally turns away from it, he will probably never come to repentance. It is not so much that God is not willing to forgive, but the person places himself in a state where forgiveness is no longer possible.

The Pharisees were forgiven for misunderstanding Jesus, however they witnessed for themselves the power of the Holy Spirit, and then hardened their hearts against Him by blaspheming His work (Matthew 12:31). That I think is what makes the sin unforgivable.

We can be almost certain that a person who had committed that sin would not the least be concerned over the fact that they had committed it. If they were concerned about it, then it would be the strongest possible evidence that the Holy Spirit is presently working in that person's life bringing them to repentance.

Many Christians go through very difficult times in their life, through periods of doubt, where they are struggling and where it seems that God is very distant. It is very easy for a person in that situation to believe that God has abandoned them when He has not done so at all. It is perfectly normal for Christians to have doubts, and that is not the same as totally rejecting Christ's salvation.

That is my understanding anyway. I hope that has helped.

With regard to the topic of OCD, it is not uncommon for Christians with OCD to worry about the fact that they have committed an unpardonable sin - as one of the classic symptoms of OCD is fear and anxiety. However sufferers need to be assured that the very fact that they are concerned about their relationship with God is the strongest possible evidence that they have not committed that sin.

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

anthony100 said:
Once an individual has had the truth of Christ revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, if he then rejects the message of the gospel and totally turns away from it, he will probably never come to repentance.

Thank you for answering the question for me. Now lets suppose that someone is under conviction at church to get saved and the person is embarrassed to walk the aisle in front of everyone.

Lets say the individual goes home and does not get saved, lets say the Holy Spirit has been dealing with this person for years and the person wants to get saved but is only embarrassed about walking the aisle.

Could this person accidentally commit this sin by resisting in this manner? the reason I ask is because this refers to me, the last time I felt the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart was 10yrs ago in a church service. Like an idiot I walked away unsaved and have yet to have heard his voice again.

I am one terrified individual right now. To make matters worse now im finding out that I did not even have to walk down the aisle, I could have just said yes to God right there in my seat!

I feel like I have been cheated out of salvation and I have fallen into a state of utter despair and hopelessness.

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

RobertZ said:
I feel like I have been cheated out of salvation and I have fallen into a state of utter despair and hopelessness.

You do not need to despair at all Robert. God has most certainly not rejected you. The very fact that you wanted (and still want) Jesus Christ in your life clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is still with you bringing you to faith in Him.

I totally respect you for the fact that you did not just get up and walk to the front of the church, just because you felt you needed to, or because everyone else was doing it. The fact was that you were not ready to do it just yet and to me that shows to me that you are an individual who is very honest with himself and with God. I believe that God will honour that. So you don't need to worry about about. You can commit your life to Christ anytime, anywhere. God isn't going to rush you into it until you are ready to make that commitment.

To understand the unforgivable sin, you have to understand it in its original context in Matthew chapter 12. You may rest assured that the unforgivable sin most certainly does not apply to you.

I hope that has helped.

Every blessing

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

anthony100 said:
You do not need to despair at all Robert. God has most certainly not rejected you. The very fact that you wanted (and still want) Jesus Christ in your life clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is still with you bringing you to faith in Him.

I totally respect you for the fact that you did not just get up and walk to the front of the church, just because you felt you needed to, or because everyone else was doing it. The fact was that you were not ready to do it just yet and to me that shows to me that you are an individual with great integrity who is honest with himself and honest with God. I believe that God will honour that. So you don't need to worry about about. You can commit your life to Christ anytime, anywhere. God isn't going to rush you into it until you are ready to make that commitment.

To understand the unforgivable sin, you have to understand it in its original context in Matthew chapter 12. You may rest assured that the unforgivable sin most certainly does not apply to you.

I hope that has helped.

Every blessing

Thank you for your support and encouragement, I appreciate it greatly. Its not that I wanted to do it because everyone else was, it was a real heart felt tug and I wanted to be saved so badly. Like I said if I had known that I could have just said yes right their in my seat I certainly would have done so.

I was under the misconception all those years that I had to walk the aisle to be saved and the only reason I did not go was because I was embarrassed to step out in front of everyone.

I guess Im must scared Anthony because I have not had that heart tug from God ever since I walked away 10yrs ago. :-(

I remember feeling like I was making a terrible mistake and feeling like it might be my last chance to get saved as God was going to leave me alone after that last call. Many preachers say that their comes a time when God who has dealt with someone over and over again will eventually be given up on by God because of their stubborn unrepentant hearts.

Winter · Sep 22, 2009

Hi Robert,

RobertZ said:
Thank you for answering the question for me. Now lets suppose that someone is under conviction at church to get saved and the person is embarrassed to walk the aisle in front of everyone.

Lets say the individual goes home and does not get saved, lets say the Holy Spirit has been dealing with this person for years and the person wants to get saved but is only embarrassed about walking the aisle.

Being saved is not dependent on walking down an aisle and doing it in front of people. Its not a procedure. Its an internal thing. One does not have to do this in front of people. In fact, getting saved is a deeply personal thing. Of course you're embarassed. I would too if I had to do that in front of others. Its a personal thing between you and God. Where does it say in the Bible that being saved can only work in front of a group of people? The Holy Spirit and your personal acceptance of the Holy Spirit can occur at any time. Not at a prescribed place and time.

Could this person accidentally commit this sin by resisting in this manner?

No of course not.

the reason I ask is because this refers to me, the last time I felt the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart was 10yrs ago in a church service. Like an idiot I walked away unsaved and have yet to have heard his voice again.

The Holy Spirit speaks within one's heart. Its not an auditory thing. Remember, that if the Holy Spirit has spoken to one's heart and if one is saved, you will know it by the kind of person you are. If you love your neighbor, if you are kind, charitable, and compassionate - those things flow from you because you are saved. Those things which spring from the heart do so because the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart ... not to your ears. See? You know the Holy Spirit by feeling its loving presence in your heart ... not by hearing a voice. That's not to say that one cannot hear an auditory voice .. many have had this experience. But its a unique experience - not a standard. What is more important is that the Holy Spirit has spoken to your heart, not to your ears.

I am one terrified individual right now. To make matters worse now im finding out that I did not even have to walk down the aisle, I could have just said yes to God right there in my seat!

So why are you afraid now? The time is NOW Robert. Forget what happened in the past. You were misguided. God understands that. He forgives you and is now seeking that you focus on today. Not yesterday. The Holy Spirit is speaking to you NOW.

Do you not trust God? Do you not trust His bountiful forgiveness?

I feel like I have been cheated out of salvation and I have fallen into a state of utter despair and hopelessness.

And what about forgiveness? What about Christ's forgiveness? Don't you think the Lord has forgiven you for your transgressions? If you are prepared today to embrace the Holy Spirit, why wouldn't your Father forgive you today? Wouldn't you forgive your son if he rejected you several times, but then one day "woke up", realized his mistakes, and reached out to you for forgiveness? Just as a father can forgive his child numerous times, so can our Father in heaven. Because remember ... the love and forgiveness of our Father in heaven is more profound than any human's.

RobertZ, all of us fail. We all sin and we all walk away time and time again. We do so because its our human nature.

I have a different understanding concerning salvation than you do. Its different doctrine-wise and if you are ever interested in hearing it I will be glad to tell you. But for now, I want to work with your understanding of things.

God bless.

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

RobertZ said:
I remember feeling like I was making a terrible mistake and feeling like it might be my last chance to get saved as God was going to leave me alone after that last call. Many preachers say that their comes a time when God who has dealt with someone over and over again will eventually be given up on by God because of their stubborn unrepentant hearts.

Unfortunately I have seen many preachers put a lot of pressure on people to get 'saved' long before they are ready to make that commitment.

You have not made a terrible mistake. You felt at the time that you were ready to make that commitment, but obviously that was not the right time for you.

And you do not have to worry about never being welcome in the Kingdom of God. It is available to you now as it was then. As with the parable of the prodigal son, the doors to the Father's home are always open wide, waiting for you to return. God is very tender and patient with you and looks forward to receiving you, just when you are ready!

Again, I hope that helps. As this form is primarily discussing OCD, it may be worth moving this subject to another forum, or alternatively you are very welcome to message me personally.

All the best

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

anthony100 said:
Unfortunately I have seen many preachers put a lot of pressure on people to get 'saved' long before they are ready to make that commitment.

You have not made a terrible mistake. You felt at the time that you were ready to make that commitment, but obviously that was not the right time for you.

And you do not have to worry about never being welcome in the Kingdom of God. It is available to you now as it was then. As with the parable of the prodigal son, the doors to the Father's home are always open wide, waiting for you to return. God is very tender and patient with you and looks forward to receiving you, just when you are ready!

Again, I hope that helps. As this form is primarily discussing OCD, it may be worth moving this subject to another forum, or alternatively you are very welcome to message me personally.

All the best

But Anthony I dont believe that its up to when we are ready.........to me saying that you will get saved when you are ready is very dangerous because for one thing you have no idea what might happen to you and for another thing you could put it off for so long that the Holy Spirit does indeed abandon you.

God convicts and makes the gracious offer of salvation and then its up for us to accept it or reject it. He is only going to work on a person for so long before he has no other choice but to leave the person alone.

Its kinda like someone putting off salvation and thinking that they can live the way that they want to live and then get saved after they had all their fun, it doesnt work that way at all.

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

RobertZ said:
But Anthony I dont believe that its up to when we are ready.........to me saying that you will get saved when you are ready is very dangerous because for one thing you have no idea what might happen to you and for another thing you could put it off for so long that the Holy Spirit does indeed abandon you.

God convicts and makes the gracious offer of salvation and then its up for us to accept it or reject it. He is only going to work on a person for so long before he has no other choice but to leave the person alone.

Its kinda like someone putting off salvation and thinking that they can live the way that they want to live and then get saved after they had all their fun, it doesnt work that way at all.

Hi Robert

I appreciate where you are coming from and can understand why you have been feeling concerned.

I have heard it taught by some preachers/ministers that putting off one's salvation results in the Holy Spirit eventually abandoning that person. I do not believe that is the case and I will give you my reasons for reaching that conclusion.

1) It is a fairly new concept taught by a minority of preachers, but not a doctrine/concept that is supported by the overwhelming majority of Christians. It is not a feature of mainline Christian teaching and never has been. There are a minority of churches that teach this view, but I do not see it supported anywhere in the teaching of the New Testament. I am a Methodist in the UK and as far as I am aware it is not supported anywhere in any of our church teachings.

2) Salvation is purely given by God's grace and not by an individuals effort. If our salvation relied upon our own initiative, our own timing, or otherwise then I believe that salvation would depend upon what we have done, rather than what God has done.

3) I know it is probably different to the situation you are describing, but I know many Christians who previously made a commitment and then abandoned their faith for many years. They have now returned to the faith and are living very fruitful lives with successful ministries. I therefore believe that those who put their own salvation off for a period of time and then later make a commitment will be more than welcomed into the Kingdom of God. The parable of the Lost Coin, The Prodigal Son fully support this view and the promises made in the Bible are promises made to you!

4) There are many passages in the Bible which support the fact that God is longsuffering and does not readily give up on his people. Here are a couple of examples from the New Testament. I can find many others.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

5) Jesus said that whoever comes to him I shall by no means cast out and in John 3:16 we read that "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Your salvation is not based on what you believed in the past, what opportunities you missed in the past. It is based on what you believe now. If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have prayerfully asked Him into your life - then you may rest assured that you do not have to worry whether or not you are a Christian. You are! Christian faith is not based on our feelings, but on Jesus' promises.

6) If a person is not ready to make a commitment, I would say that there is nothing wrong in postponing it to a time when they are ready to do so. I cannot see how that would make God angry with the person. In fact, I believe that He would respect their honesty and integrity, in the same way that I believe He has respected yours. Christianity is not something people sign up to on a whim, and that is why I do not believe in people queueing up after services to run through the sinners prayer.

I can assure you Robert that you do not have anything to worry about. If you have turn to Christ and put your faith in Him then you will most assuredly be part of His Kingdom!

Every blessing

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

anthony100 said:
Hi Robert

I appreciate where you are coming from and can understand why you have been feeling concerned.

I have heard it taught by some preachers/ministers that putting off one's salvation results in the Holy Spirit eventually abandoning that person. I do not believe that is the case and I will give you my reasons for reaching that conclusion.

1) It is a fairly new concept taught by a minority of preachers, but not a doctrine/concept that is supported by the overwhelming majority of Christians. It is not a feature of mainline Christian teaching and never has been. There are a minority of churches that teach this view, but I do not see it supported anywhere in the teaching of the New Testament. I am a Methodist in the UK and as far as I am aware it is not supported anywhere in any of our church teachings.

2) Salvation is purely given by God's grace and not by an individuals effort. If our salvation relied upon our own initiative, our own timing, or otherwise then I believe that salvation would depend upon what we have done, rather than what God has done.

3) I know it is probably different to the situation you are describing, but I know many Christians who previously made a commitment and then abandoned their faith for many years. They have now returned to the faith and are living very fruitful lives with successful ministries. I therefore believe that those who put their own salvation off for a period of time and then later make a commitment will be more than welcomed into the Kingdom of God. The parable of the Lost Coin, The Prodigal Son fully support this view and the promises made in the Bible are promises made to you!

4) There are many passages in the Bible which support the fact that God is longsuffering and does not readily give up on his people. Here are a couple of examples from the New Testament. I can find many others.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

5) Jesus said that whoever comes to him I shall by no means cast out and in John 3:16 we read that "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Your salvation is not based on what you believed in the past, what opportunities you missed in the past. It is based on what you believe now. If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have prayerfully asked Him into your life - then you may rest assured that you do not have to worry whether or not you are a Christian. You are! Christian faith is not based on our feelings, but on Jesus' promises.

6) If a person is not ready to make a commitment, I would say that there is nothing wrong in postponing it to a time when they are ready to do so. I cannot see how that would make God angry with the person. In fact, I believe that He would respect their honesty and integrity, in the same way that I believe He has respected yours. Christianity is not something people sign up to on a whim, and that is why I do not believe in people queueing up after services to run through the sinners prayer.

I can assure you Robert that you do not have anything to worry about. If you have turn to Christ and put your faith in Him then you will most assuredly be part of His Kingdom!

Every blessing

Thanks for responding again Anthony. I just dont know, I have been pulling my hair out for nearly a year now trying to find God again and I cant seem to find him.

Its like I woke up and realized that he was no longer around and working in my life, im crying out for him and I cant find him. My life has gone down hill drastically and im even on anti depression meds. Never in my 36yrs on this earth have I suffered from depression until now.

Of course not being able to find God and thinking that he has abandoned you to your sins is enough to depress anyone.

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

Anthony I have also had repeated dreams of being thrown into hell, I have even woken up in the middle of the night and my skin literally felt like it was on fire, this is no joke.

Im either going through some major spiritual warfare with the devil or God really does despise me.

I have never heard of a Christian that has gone through these things, I have no joy, no happiness. I have none of the fruits of a true believer, in fact I am easily angered and that hurts me even more.

Winter · Sep 22, 2009

God convicts and makes the gracious offer of salvation and then its up for us to accept it or reject it. He is only going to work on a person for so long before he has no other choice but to leave the person alone.

Robert, I keep thinking of the analogy of a human father and his son. Say a son keeps rejecting his dad for 20 years and says "no" to him and engages deliberately in sin. But then one day he has a wake-up call - he realizes how much he has hurt and disappointed his father over and over again. Internally he has changed. He is remorseful and cognizant of his ways. He goes to his dad ... and asks his dad to open the door and let him in his life ... will the father forgive him? Most loving parents who love their children unconditionally will forgive and give them another chance no matter how many times. They may be mistrustful of their child but that's natural - they have the inability to really see their child's heart the way God does.

Now take the same example with God. You knock on His door after 20 years of repeatedly rejecting Him. Inside, you have changed (and God will know that because He can see your heart). Just as a loving parent forgives, so too will our Lord. No matter how many times it takes. He doesn't give up on us - just like mom and dad never give up on their kids. They only know want what's best. That is what true forgiveness is .. its why Christ died on the cross for us. He knew we would repeatedly sin so His love for you enables God to forgive us no matter how many times it takes. Quite simply, that is love.

To assume that God would reject His child - His creation - because of our repeated ignorance - is undermining His love for us.

Somewhere within you there is a war going on .... fear versus trust. Do you fear God or do you trust God's love?

Is God a vengeful and angry God ... or is God a loving and forgiving God? This duality is seen in the Bible but in the end we have to decide.

annrobert · Sep 22, 2009

Caty said:
i know your are getting tired or this but what if i come to Him and He never changes me,

Jesus says he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
Jesus says verily verily he that believeth on Me has everlasting life.
We cannot just ignore this.They are great and wonderful promises that will never pass away for any reason.
It is impossible for God lie.
Jesus is truth.
So when we come to Jesus He saves us ,we are born again,we have a new spirit,our spirit is alive and born again,we have passed from death to life and are no longer under condemnation.
All promises from Jesus who is truth.
We are changed.we are forgiven ,we are redeemed,we are born again and we are safe.

what if Im stuck wanthing it forever, bc I would rather have some hope than to find out i dont have any..

Jesus says he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
Jesus cannot lie.
His words will never pass away.
So caty ,you are safe in Jesus hand.

.i really hope that saying things i your head is not that sin bc if so im in trouble, bc i just let it happen its kinda complusive i get all this built of 'energy' and i say everything around it without putting Spirit on the end but sometimes my mind does anyway,

This is not you,it is your carnal mind that is afflicted with fear and ocd.
Anyone who comes to Jesus will never be cast out for any reason.
Jesus cannot lie and His words will not pass away.Your spirit and soul are saved and safe,later we get a new glorified body.

speak out, to express one's opinion openly and unreservedly: He was not afraid to speak out when it was something he believed in strongly.

I think this is the kind of speaking Jesus was talking about.Speaking a persons views openly and unreservedly.

Jesus was not referring to someone with ocd affliction , a disorder or affliction that does not reflect their views and is a disorder just like any disorder ,just like stuttering or having any illness.
People with ocd are not thinking or expressing their views,they do not want the disorder and want the thoughts and all afflictions that accompany ocd to end.
They want all this to go away, because they do not believe in this.
This is not their views.This causes them to suffer because they do not want it.
It is not them,
It is ocd.
Jesus knows this.
He knows they want this to stop because they are against the disorder and want it to stop.
The pharasees who were doing this were openly and unreservedly expressings their strong views.
They did not have ocd.
Their views caused them no distress.
They liked their views.
The views came from their heart.

You want forgiveness
you want salvation
You want a Saviour
you want Jesus
you have come to Jesus and will never ever be cast out.

doesnt Jesus say you might as well say ur thoughts and then He says what you say revels your heart???

caty your heart wants Jesus,wants change,
You want to know you are safe
That Jesus will not push you away
that you have hope
you want mercy
you want God
You want to be saved
you do not like being this way
you want to be normal
you want all this to end
THIS Proves what is in your heart,( above)

ocd and fears and afflictions are not from our heart
The ocd and fear just comes from a carnal ocd afflicted mind.
We all have carnal minds and we all have doubts and fears and weaknesses
I also suffered with terror and ocd for way too long.
Ocd and fears are not from our heart and is not our fault
reading the bible and being renewed in our minds is good for us.
Also getting treatment when needed is good for us.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Jesus did not say every single thought and word comes from our heart.

He just said what is in our heart comes out.

That does not mean that every word we speak and every thought we have is from our heart.

people who take morphine for pain may think or say things not from their heart.

People who stutter and not wanting to stutter in their heart.

people with fears and ocd illness or other illnesses are not wanting this in their heart.

so every single thing we think and say is not from our heart..

a hurting angry child may say I hate you mommy when abgry and this is not in their heart

However what is in a heart does come out

such as the pharasees saying over and over again without fear or ever regretting it

also a person scared and afflicted with religious ocd keeps expressing their hope that God will forgive and have mercy on them and their hope that they are safe and able to be saved,which they are.

Jesus says he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.

love
annrobert

Winter · Sep 22, 2009

Thanks for responding again Anthony. I just dont know, I have been pulling my hair out for nearly a year now trying to find God again and I cant seem to find him.

Dear Robert, that is because your heart, soul, and mind has been inundated with fear. Fear has blinded you. You need to trust "trust". You need to trust the good words of the many Christians who have been counseling you. You need to trust the Bible passages which bring you the promise.

See what happens is that you find just one passage or listen to one sermon that scares the living daylights out of you ... and instead of looking at the other sermons or Biblical passages to mean opposite, you reject them and "latch" on to those that bring you fear.

Set a goal and make that goal to find peace. Lay your worries and allow your heart to trust in what is good .. love and forgiveness. God is waiting behind the door. Once you trust you will find Him near.

annrobert · Sep 22, 2009

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus words never pass away

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

RobertZ said:
Anthony I have also had repeated dreams of being thrown into hell, I have even woken up in the middle of the night and my skin literally felt like it was on fire, this is no joke.

Im either going through some major spiritual warfare with the devil or God really does despise me.

I have never heard of a Christian that has gone through these things, I have no joy, no happiness. I have none of the fruits of a true believer, in fact I am easily angered and that hurts me even more.

Robert, I do understand the situation that you are going through, as I went through a similar situation during my first summer home from university about 15 years ago. There came a point when I believed that God had totally abandoned me and for weeks I could get no peace day or night. I know what it feels like to hopelessly lost, but you will get through this situation and will start to feel better again and more confident in your own faith. Here are a few things I have tried which may help you.

(1) You mention that you have been put on anti-depressants. These will take some time to work, but hopefully they should help to relieve not only your depression but also your anxiety. Once your anxiety reduces, you should be able to sleep better. I think you should consider getting counselling so you can talk through all of the things that are worrying you. I know it sounds strange, but I believe secular counselling would be preferable than Christian counselling in this situation as they will help you yourself to come to reasoned conclusions on what you believe, rather than being influenced by what others want you to believe.

(2) As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, there are often disagreements amongst churches over Christian theology, the nature of judgement, and a whole range of matters. Some churches place an unusual and rather disturbing emphasis on sin and judgement which can be very distressing for sensitive people like you who are prone to anxiety and depression. Other churches place much more emphasis on the love of Christ and the values of the Kingdom of God in the present which may be more helpful to you in your present situation. You could consider visiting or moving to another church which has a much broader interpretation of the scriptures. My personal recommendation would be one of the mainline churches, eg. Episcopal/Anglican, Methodist. I am not saying this to be patronising to you, but I feel that you have a perception of God who always seems to be angry with you and if that is what you are being taught about God in your present church, then that is certainly not going to help you.

(3) I'm not presuming that you don't do this already, but if you were able to participate in some voluntary work, even if it was helping a family member or friend, then I think that would encourage you. When I was anxious and depressed and set out to do voluntary work, it helped me to see my own worries in their proper perspective. And I believe helping others can be a great blessing to the person who puts themselves out to help someone else.

You come across as a very decent individual, Robert, with a great deal of honesty and integrity. I know things are a struggle for you at the moment and in time they will get better for you. I would encourage you not to be too hard on yourself by saying that you have none of the fruits of a believer. From reading your posts, I would say that is not true at all. In fact, after reading some of the other topic threads, I would say that you are a very polite and sensitive individual and I find it hard to imagine that you would be unkind to anyone. You also have a very earnest desire to move on with your faith in God which many Christians do not have and that really is to be commended.

I hope this has encouraged you. I know that God still loves you and you can be assured that you will be in my prayers.

Every blessing.

anthony100 · Sep 22, 2009

Here is an extract from The Road to Daybreak which was written by the late Father Henri Nouwen. It is one of the most moving Christian writings I have read and helped me during one of the most difficult periods in my life. I hope you are encouraged by it.

I am your God, I have moulded you with my own hands, and I love what I have made.
I love you with a love that has no limits, because I love you as I am loved.
Do not run away from me.
Come back to me – not once, not twice, but always again.
You are my child.

How can you ever doubt that I will embrace you again, hold you against my breast, kiss you and let my hands run through your hair?
I am your God – the God of mercy and compassion, the God of pardon and love, the God of tenderness and care.
Please do not say that I have given up on you, that I cannot stand you anymore, that there is no way back.
It is not true.

I so much want you to be with me.
I so much want you to be close to me.
I know all your thoughts.
I hear all your words.
I see all your actions.

And I love you because you are beautiful, made in my own image, and expression of my most intimate love.
Do not judge yourself.
Do not condemn yourself.
Do not reject yourself.

Let my love touch the deepest, most hidden corners of your heart and reveal to you your own beauty,
a beauty that you have lost sight of but which will become visible to you again in the light of my mercy.

Come, come, let me wipe your tears, and let my mouth come close to your ear and say to you, "I love you".

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

Thank you Anthony, the tears are streaming down my cheeks right now. My daughter is waking up from her nap so I have to go for now but I will be back later to post my thoughts. Thanks again. Robert.

Caty · Sep 22, 2009

I dont know if its my ocd or not.
but for one I worry i really do not have ocd and I hate the words 'well in my opinion' or 'i believe' i thank you all and i dont want to sound disrespectful but i feel like thats just an opinion and it doesn't change the truth, i dont think we will ever know what the uf-sin is until I die. im sorry i keep going on but you all help me amke it day to day sometimes.

RobertZ · Sep 22, 2009

Caty said:
I dont know if its my ocd or not.
but for one I worry i really do not have ocd and I hate the words 'well in my opinion' or 'i believe' i thank you all and i dont want to sound disrespectful but i feel like thats just an opinion and it doesn't change the truth, i dont think we will ever know what the uf-sin is until I die. im sorry i keep going on but you all help me amke it day to day sometimes.

Caty im sorry for hijacking your thread, I didnt mean to do that. I pray that both of us will get better very soon.

I don't knwo anymore...

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Jesus, let it be ok

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Jesus, let it be ok

Jesus is my Shelter my Refuge my Fortress

Jesus, let it be ok

Jesus is my Shelter my Refuge my Fortress

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