I don't know who to listen to

[CaspianSails]

one is a Baptist and the other is a Pentecostal, and they both are contradicting each other.

1. The Baptist one says use the KJV, the Pentecostal says use the ESV

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

3. The Baptist says I am eternally secure, the Pentecostal says that it is possible for me to later on reject Christ and be cut off forever.

Ok how do I know which one is lying to me? Why did God make finding truth so difficult?[/QUOTE]

Ok, so don't conflate doctrine with a relationship with God. What are spiritual gifts? Have you read to find out or do you just listen to what another man with a mission to promote his version of the truth. Search the scripture daily, pray often daily. Do you want to absolutely sure of your salvation regardless of what they are telling you? Believe in Christ, die to self, through the Holy Spirit, who does dwell in you, overcome the flesh, live for Christ, serve Him and others, fulfill the great commission, promote love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, meekness, truth, forgiveness, giving, serving. Aren't they evidence of the fruits of the Spirit? There is religion and there is living a life for Christ that frees you from religion. The doctrinalists will go crazy with that one. LOL. In other words make those issues irrelevant in your life. God will give you all you need if you ask Him in faith, which he provides, with a selfless, contrite, and yearning heart. This would be a good start.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Ok, so don't conflate doctrine with a relationship with God. What are spiritual gifts? Have you read to find out or do you just listen to what another man with a mission to promote his version of the truth. Search the scripture daily, pray often daily. Do you want to absolutely sure of your salvation regardless of what they are telling you? Believe in Christ, die to self, through the Holy Spirit, who does dwell in you, overcome the flesh, live for Christ, serve Him and others, fulfill the great commission, promote love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, meekness, truth, forgiveness, giving, serving. Aren't they evidence of the fruits of the Spirit? There is religion and there is living a life for Christ that frees you from religion. The doctrinalists will go crazy with that one. LOL. In other words make those issues irrelevant in your life. God will give you all you need if you ask Him in faith, which he provides, with a selfless, contrite, and yearning heart. This would be a good start.

Ignore doctrine? That is precisely what I'd say 75% or more of people who claim to be a Christian do. The Bible says all scripture is useful for doctrine, reproof, correction in righteousness so that the man of God can be thoroughly furnished. The NT Christians were admonished to stay true to sound doctrine!!!
In Him

 

[timothyu]

What happens when doctrines of man built upon scripture ends up being focussed on and passed off as being as important as scripture?

 

[Just_a_Christian]

What happens when doctrines of man built upon scripture ends up being focussed on and passed off as being as important as scripture?

Their work will be burned! I have done nothing but quote scripture. My opinion has stayed precisely where it should be. What doctrine of "man" have I peddled?
In Him

 

[timothyu]

What doctrine of "man" have I peddled?

I asked a question in general which had nothing to do with you. Sorry.

 

[Tone]

DELETED

 

[Just_a_Christian]

I asked a question in general which had nothing to do with you. Sorry.

Seemed like that was adressed to me even though you didn't quote me. May've just been a timing thing.
Guess I should've asked instead of assuming.
Apologies Sir., or Ma'am

 

[timothyu]

Apologies Sir., or Ma'am

No problem

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There are 2 Bible teachers I go to.

one is a Baptist and the other is a Pentecostal, and they both are contradicting each other.

1. The Baptist one says use the KJV, the Pentecostal says use the ESV

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, relying too much on the carnal mind can lead to other pitfalls later, regardless of your bible translation.

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

I recall an apostle saying that he didn't want us ignorant about our spiritual gifts, since spiritual gifts are operated through faith, those who don't believe in them won't see it, so it's circular and depressing. The parable of the stewards given talents comes to mind. There's no korban on the gifts of the spirit.

3. The Baptist says I am eternally secure, the Pentecostal says that it is possible for me to later on reject Christ and be cut off forever.

This is more for God to say, learn to listen to Him so you have no need of a teacher.

Ok how do I know which one is lying to me? Why did God make finding truth so difficult?

Before it was impossible, but He did die on the cross so you could have the Holy Spirit to guide you. It's still difficult, but not as hard as before.

The question for me is why Adam needed to make it so difficult for us.

 

[Yusuphhai]

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

If I have to choose one from Baptist or Pentecostal. I choose Baptist. I doubt whether “the strange tongue” is from God or other way. But I think conservative strange tongue, which may be translated by oneself or others, is permitted (1 Corinthians). If without a translator, public strange tongues with a lot of people sound like meaningless words.

 

[zoidar]

There are 2 Bible teachers I go to.

one is a Baptist and the other is a Pentecostal, and they both are contradicting each other.

1. The Baptist one says use the KJV, the Pentecostal says use the ESV

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

3. The Baptist says I am eternally secure, the Pentecostal says that it is possible for me to later on reject Christ and be cut off forever.

Ok how do I know which one is lying to me? Why did God make finding truth so difficult?

None of them are lying to you. They got different understanding, both think they are right. I would go with a few different Bibles and compare them. I also would listen to both of them and see who of them gives you the best image of the loving God, as He is. Maybe they are right on different issues, give it some time, pray about it and see where you end up.

God bless,
P

 

[Gregory95]

There are 2 Bible teachers I go to.

one is a Baptist and the other is a Pentecostal, and they both are contradicting each other.

1. The Baptist one says use the KJV, the Pentecostal says use the ESV

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

3. The Baptist says I am eternally secure, the Pentecostal says that it is possible for me to later on reject Christ and be cut off forever.

Ok how do I know which one is lying to me? Why did God make finding truth so difficult?

Read the NT my friend all those questions will be answered

My issue with mainstream churches is they tend to follow tradition of men not Word of God

If people study they will see who is deceiving

I personally study from the oldest Bibles I can find first one I studied from is from pre American civil war one I study now is from 1890s and make sure they are translated from the original Greek

 

[Gregory95]

And as always pray not for the will of flesh but that the Holy Spirit guides you

 

[Aaron112]

Doesn't God speak through people?

Rarely.

 

[Aaron112]

Why did God make finding truth so difficult?

All men are liars. God is not a man that He could lie!

That basic truth is necessary to be revealed by God to anyone He Decides to help.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Doesn't God speak through people?

As acquaintances, yes of course, and with you as provisional umpire.

Avoid the ESV altogether (it fails the Genesis 3:16 test). Use a spread of others. I've concentrated on AV (= KJV), RSV, Amplified, and NKJV which I take to church in its handy binding - RSV and Amplified are my favourites. I'm easy with all my pals using which they want except ESV (when I occasionally make muted remarks). Don't let people dictate to you. Don't use "Study Bibles". Use Bibles with cross references. Check in your own mind the meanings in what Bible quotes people give, whatever version they say it comes from.

Dr David Pawson is an old-style English Baptist with very sensible interpretations. R T Kendall wrote an excellent commentary on James (I gave it away and can't trace it). In his early career Don Carson wrote a trenchant commentary (From triumphalism to maturity) based on II Corinthians which, like Galatians is a tract against super-apostles.

Reject being lorded over but cherry pick from people who are "right twice a day" using your own provisional discretion formed by intersecting several Scripture meanings together. You'll get used to which of your acquaintances can support you best in doing this at any time. One of my worst fellowships as to interrelating (as I discovered rather late) had actually taught Bible fairly well.

Ecumenism should be something private individuals do at discretion and not imposed by leadership.

Trendy "evangelicals" abolished the doctrines of assurance and redemption which some of us held, which is why there is a distorted and confusing focus on mini-salvation.

The gifts are inevitable in conjunction with the fruits, with providence and with the present eschaton which began as they went down the mountain of Ascension. But not in the high profile discredited formats. The fashion for bad teaching followed by no teaching at all, has ruined belief and hence prayer.

In one of the several usages of St Paul "prophesying" meant matching the application of some passage(s) in Scripture with what's going on. What some people called "promptings" probably comes in here.

There are only three kinds of genuine tongues and forget about tongues till (or unless) it happens. (There was a phase years back when tongues was supposed to be the badge of fun.)

Everybody in churches has some informal part in typically about three of the fivefold ministry areas, which always belonged to everyone in the whole church and not to those publicity seekers who have usurped them. Thus somebody will be a backroom carer at heart, and / or a ground level evangeliser, someone who informally ponders meanings and shares inspiration from throughout the Bible, etc. A church I knew wouldn't look after the people my friend found herself evangelising at bus stops.

A co-apostler in your neighbourhood is probably a housebound old lady few people know. Don't forget that standard prayers such as reciting all the Psalms often, sustains people you don't know. This is the profitability in God's invisible spiritual economy.

The Bible mentions 55 gifts and there happen to be lists with 9, 12, etc. They are a variable blend of the natural and spiritual. Miracles are relatively big, or (very often) relatively small and basically don't get "worked", simply given.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... starting from chapter 2 and culiminating in chapter 14, Paul's magnum opus on the ABSOLUTE PRIMACY of universal prophethood. The whole point of this epistle, as I see it, is that mature prophethood IS THE DEFINITION OF spiritual maturity ... we NEED infallible doctrine. If we're not wanting the gift of prophecy, therefore, our priorities are dead wrong. Take another look at verse 14:1- because that's where you'll find Paul's priorities spelled out, I should think.

You have put it well, omitting only to point out that we whom St Paul talks about are not giving out new revelation. "Prophesying" meant spotlighting existing revelation. Cessationists tend to think it doesn't need spotlighting.

If we live in the Spirit and if our hearers live in the Spirit (or are called to do so) they can intersect our meanings with Scripture meanings as the Bereans did and can use their minds the way God intended minds used.

When we take part in this ministry we don't gain status or a job title. It's similar to all being priests.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

doctrines of assurance and redemption

Some of my old pals a lifetime ago would sing:

"For I know Whom I have believ-ed
And am persuad-ed that He is able
To keep that which I've committ-ed
Unto Him, against that day".

("Day" can mean a whole period.)

 

[LoveofTruth]

one is a Baptist and the other is a Pentecostal, and they both are contradicting each other.

1. The Baptist one says use the KJV, the Pentecostal says use the ESV

2. The Baptist says don't go seeking the spiritual gifts since they ceased, the Pentecostal says to seek the spiritual gifts because they are still here for today

3. The Baptist says I am eternally secure, the Pentecostal says that it is possible for me to later on reject Christ and be cut off forever.

Ok how do I know which one is lying to me? Why did God make finding truth so difficult?

Spiritual Gifts have not ceased today and those who say they have are not accurate. The few verses they try to use to say they have ceased do not say that. They also try to say when that which is perfect has come then the gifts have ceased or passed away. The perect they think means the scriptures. But no... consider,

What do you think the word "perfect" refers to?

consider these things and hopefully you will agree with the truth here,

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:10-12)

To "know" here means -ἐπιγινώσκω epiginṓskō, ep-ig-in-oce'-ko; from G1909 and G1097; to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize; by implication, to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge:—(ac-, have, take)know(-ledge, well), perceive.

and compare with this similar section

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." ( Philippians 3:10-12).

to "apprehend" here means - καταλαμβάνω katalambánō, kat-al-am-ban'-o; from G2596 and G2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively):—apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-)take.

Paul is clearly in both cases referring to being perfect and the resurrection of the dead, when he gets a glorified body and when he shall see Christ face to face. And be "known, and "apprehended" same general meaning, as he is also known and apprehended. The similarity is very strong in these two sections. So the gifts have not ceased and that which is perfect does not refer to the holy scriptures. They already had the holy scriptures OT that were able to make them wise unto salvation through faith and to make them perfect unto every good work 2 Timothy 3.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Another thing is, because the gifts in you and me are not about taking over the church (because our gifts are not like the gifts of high profile influencers which are about them only), no authority has any right to veto them. If you go to a Bible study you'll all get nurtured in insight together (if you pray before and after). In the liturgy it's perfectly good to stick to the order of service. If this is genuine you're not going to start cornering individuals and telling them who to marry.

It's important to realise Holy Spirit * is dual action, inbreathing before Ascension and infillings after Ascension. The gifts come from the fruits and go towards the fruits. They are part of how Jesus left us a Comforter and why there should be mutual trust around you, if you are looking after your character.

{ * just my name for Him without the article }

Many christians live this out already - they walk the walk. Some day, it will be more important that people talk the walk (to their children or receptive friends) as well, so that later generations won't be easily persuaded this isn't why Jesus ascended. (Maybe long ago some of these things were handed on at confirmation.)

So between those two individuals if you've time and mental energy and they're not harassing you, the optimum may be to let them drop you before you drop them. If you pray, God will inspire them to do so! In any event it's likely they are not fully convinced by their own arguments.

We all need a short prayer we can continually recite between our main prayer sessions.