I don't get it...

[Christina M]

NOBODY sees God as a glorious being because you "faithfully endure your suffering in His name." Nobody but you. Every other rational person in the universe hears your story and quickly backs away from you (and God) lest He require them to endure such illogical and meaningless suffering also.

I know I certainly wouldn't be drawn to an all-powerful God by watching crippled, blind, deaf and sick people ..... what kind of God would do that?????

Oh.... yeah, God DOESN'T.......

He made the way, He provided it already... .and He is waiting for people to stop glorying in their curses (yep, all of it is listed in the Word as curses)......and do what they need to do to receive what He has already done for them.

 

[JTM3]

EDIT: It was lol

 

[JimfromOhio]

So all those Buddhists out there are really glorifying Buddha with all their self inflicted suffering. And the Muslim who blows himself up (and a bunch of others) is really glorifying Allah with that immense suffering.
This defies all logic and reason. NOBODY sees God as a glorious being because you "faithfully endure your suffering in His name." Nobody but you. Every other rational person in the universe hears your story and quickly backs away from you (and God) lest He require them to endure such illogical and meaningless suffering also.
Non-believers read this stuff and simply sign you off as fanatics. It does not glorify God nor does it encourage anyone to come to Him. It scares people and makes you scary. Not a single person out in the world will follow your logic and assume that your "suffering for God" somehow glorifies God. That is all you.
It is "good news" not "bad news."
You have to at least make sense.
This does not.

Religion will focus on works that they think they have faith. Suffering is not like that. But your reasoning sounded so human. When I am most aware of my weaknesses, I am more inclined to collapse into God's strength and experience His amazing grace. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9). Having faith in God allows me to go as far as I can while trusting in God's grace to overcome the difficulties I face every day.

Maybe I can feel superior and start focusing on human reasoning that we who suffer more are more superior than those who have GREAT faith that is able to be healed.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Sometimes I think that people forget that a "martyr complex" and actually being martyred are two completely different things. IMO.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Sometimes I think that people forget that a "martyr complex" and actually being martyred are two completely different things. IMO.

Yep.. depending on the culture, environmental, government, time and many other factors. Looking at history, tolerance have grown while persecution have drop. However persecution comes in many forms unlike the older days. Christian History is really interesting.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Even religious reasoning has to make sense. Words mean things. Even religious words. The words Glory, Glorify, Glorious all denote the idea of attributing to God goodness, power, and magesty. No-where in this definition is there room for sickeness, suffering, the inflicting of suffering, or death.

Glorious
GLO'RIOUS, a. [L. gloriosus. See Glory.]

1. Illustrious; of exalted excellence and splendor; resplendent in majesty and divine attributes; applied to God. Exo 15:11.
2. Noble; excellent; renowned; celebrated; illustrious; very honorable; applied to men,their achievements, titles, &c.
3. Boastful; self-exulting; haughty; ostentatious.​

It just defies logic and murders the English language. Crush a human being into a useless mass of flesh, reduce him to a vegetable, cover him with excrement and every other horrid thing... and then claim that this somehow "glorifies God!" And then to even suggest that "God did it for His glory"... that is just plain insanity and the stuff that religious fanaticism is made of. There are people in asylums who spout that rubbish. Only religious people come up with this nonsense. Only religious people say these things and then wonder why people run from them. This is the most horrible thing we could say about God. Not only does it not glorify God... it has the exact opposite effect. Millions of people hate God because they in fact accept this testimony and actually believe this is what God like. I cannot blame them... if I thought God tortured people and inflicted horrible suffing upon them just so He could get "a little glory" out it it, I would hate Him too! What sane person would not???
It is just beyond all rational thought... religious or not...

 

[JimfromOhio]

Even religious reasoning has to make sense. Words mean things. Even religious words. The words Glory, Glorify, Glorious all denote the idea of attributing to God goodness, power, and magesty. No-where in this definition is there room for sickeness, suffering, the inflicting of suffering, or death.

Glorious
GLO'RIOUS, a. [L. gloriosus. See Glory.]

1. Illustrious; of exalted excellence and splendor; resplendent in majesty and divine attributes; applied to God. Exo 15:11.
2. Noble; excellent; renowned; celebrated; illustrious; very honorable; applied to men,their achievements, titles, &c.
3. Boastful; self-exulting; haughty; ostentatious.​

It just defies logic and murders the English language. Crush a human being into a useless mass of flesh, reduce him to a vegetable, cover him with excrement and every other horrid thing... and then claim that this somehow "glorifies God!" And then to even suggest that "God did it for His glory"... that is just plain insanity and the stuff that religious fanaticism is made of. There are people in asylums who spout that rubbish. Only religious people come up with this nonsense. Only religious people say these things and then wonder why people run from them. This is the most horrible thing we could say about God. Not only does it not glorify God... it has the exact opposite effect. Millions of people hate God because they in fact accept this testimony and actually believe this is what God like. I cannot blame them... if I thought God tortured people and inflicted horrible suffing upon them just so He could get "a little glory" out it it, I would hate Him too! What sane person would not???
It is just beyond all rational thought... religious or not...

JimM and I (as well as others) have listed the sicknesses in the Bible but people are "selective" about what they want to see and believe based on their "doctrines".

One of the BEST examples is from Jesus himself: John 9:1-3 "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

Few others are:
Acts 5 (Ananias and Sapphira) Verses 9-10 Peter said to Sapphira, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died.

Throughout the Bible, the following have caused by God as Amos 3:6 says "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?:"

There are all kinds of sufferings. There are suffering of hardship, discrimination hardship, phyiscal disabilities, learning disabilities and much more. Almost ALL of us have been and will experience hardship in our lives.

Anyway, human reasonings without Scriptural support is based on human's emotions and mind without God's word. This is an interesting thread so far.

 

[probinson]

If being sick puts you in the pharmacy at the right time to witness to a young mother dying of cancer who has never contemplated Jesus sacrifice for her
- Did God allow this to happen in you for her sake?
- Would you choose *not* to suffer sickness if your sickness places you to minister the seeds of salvation to a lost soul? If without your short illness that person never gets a chance?

Once I was in a church where a woman stood up and testified how greatful she was that God put her in the hospital so she could witness to the person in the bed next to her.

All I could think while she was testifying was, why couldn't you get off your lazy butt and go witness to that lady in the hospital without God putting you there? Last time I checked, hospital's have visiting hours and you're more than welcome to go there of your own volition. God shouldn't need to strike you and put you in the hospital to witness to someone.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure God used that situation for His glory, but the testimony should be focused on sharing the Gospel, not God's "mysterious ways" of inflicting you and putting you in the hospital.

 

[JTM3]

Once I was in a church where a woman stood up and testified how greatful she was that God put her in the hospital so she could witness to the person in the bed next to her.

All I could think while she was testifying was, why couldn't you get off your lazy butt and go witness to that lady in the hospital without God putting you there? Last time I checked, hospital's have visiting hours and you're more than welcome to go there of your own volition. God shouldn't need to strike you and put you in the hospital to witness to someone.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure God used that situation for His glory, but the testimony should be focused on sharing the Gospel, not God's "mysterious ways" of inflicting you and putting you in the hospital.

Yeah, amen!!!

 

[probinson]

JimM and I (as well as others) have listed the sicknesses in the Bible but people are "selective" about what they want to see and believe based on their "doctrines".

As have I linked this thread many, many times. This thread shows the character and the nature of Jesus concerning healing. There's more scripture here than you can shake a stick at. The Bible says that Jesus showed us the Father. Simple.

One of the BEST examples is from Jesus himself: John 9:1-3 "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

The work of God was displayed in his life WHEN HE WAS HEALED in the VERY NEXT VERSE!

Few others are:
Acts 5 (Ananias and Sapphira) Verses 9-10 Peter said to Sapphira, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died.

Throughout the Bible, the following have caused by God as Amos 3:6 says "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?:"

There are all kinds of sufferings. There are suffering of hardship, discrimination hardship, phyiscal disabilities, learning disabilities and much more. Almost ALL of us have been and will experience hardship in our lives.

Anyway, human reasonings without Scriptural support is based on human's emotions and mind without God's word. This is an interesting thread so far.

Oy.

I am not "reasoning" without Scriptural support. It has nothing to do with emotions. I've posted God's Word. You many not agree with what I've posted, but your accusation that this argument is being made without Scriptural support is misleading at best and a blatant lie at worst.

STOP BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST ME.

 

[JimfromOhio]

but the testimony should be focused on sharing the Gospel, not God's "mysterious ways" of inflicting you and putting you in the hospital.

Suffering is somewhat mysterious. We may know some of the theological reasons for suffering from Scripture, yet when it hits, there is still a certain mystery. Through circumstances, the Holy Spirit is able to grasp our inner being only when we submit completely which will allow Him to teach us, lead us mysterious and divine where we ought to go.

As I have said before, I noticed that the providential of God leads us to what we call "coincidences" in their lives which perhaps God will make sure that His wills will be done at His right time and place. There are two worlds, set over against each other, dominated by two wills, the will of man and the will of God, respectively. Whose will have more power? Of course, God. He directs our lives no matter what we do.

 

[Strong in Him]

So all those Buddhists out there are really glorifying Buddha with all their self inflicted suffering. And the Muslim who blows himself up (and a bunch of others) is really glorifying Allah with that immense suffering.
This defies all logic and reason. NOBODY sees God as a glorious being because you "faithfully endure your suffering in His name." Nobody but you. Every other rational person in the universe hears your story and quickly backs away from you (and God) lest He require them to endure such illogical and meaningless suffering also.

No they don't. They often, in my experience, look at someone who is ill and think "how can they have faith in a God who is apparently doing nothing for them? What is it that makes them joyful and at peace even though, humanly speaking, they have little reason to be."

No one says "come to Jesus and be blessed with a chronic illness because God is so insecure he needs you to prove your love." No one says that God requires his followers to have a disability just so they can show what it means to have faith and persevere. But if we are ill/disabled and do continue to trust God through this time, then other people will notice - because it's not normal. The normal way, and the wordly way, would be to curse God, turn away from him and be bitter and angry at what has happened. This probably happens to some extent to Christians as well - there is a normal grieving process for loss of health etc, and we are all still human enough to ask "why me?" The big difference is that for some people this is the start of their rebellion against God, whereas some people say "I don't know why Lord, but I trust in you."

It's true that probably one of the biggest questions is "if there is a God why does he allow so much suffering?" Some non Christians may use this as an excuse not to believe, or find out further. They seem to hope that the question will stump the Christian and they won't be able to answer. Then they will have an excuse not to believe. If a non Christian is serious about finding an answer to this question, they will listen for an answer and join in a dialogue. But the Pharisees saw healing, and even resurrection, with their own eyes and still didn't believe - so it's no guarantee.

 

[probinson]

No they don't.

Yes, many do. I've talked with them. They don't get it like you're presenting here:

They often, in my experience, look at someone who is ill and think "how can they have faith in a God who is apparently doing nothing for them? What is it that makes them joyful and at peace even though, humanly speaking, they have little reason to be."

VERY few people I've met have that view. There are some, but not many. That is not the general perception. What I hear much more frequently is people say, "They serve a God who has all power to heal them, but won't. How crazy is that?" That has been my experience.

No one says "come to Jesus and be blessed with a chronic illness because God is so insecure he needs you to prove your love." No one says that God requires his followers to have a disability just so they can show what it means to have faith and persevere. But if we are ill/disabled and do continue to trust God through this time, then other people will notice - because it's not normal.

Some will. Some won't.

The normal way, and the wordly way, would be to curse God, turn away from him and be bitter and angry at what has happened. This probably happens to some extent to Christians as well - there is a normal grieving process for loss of health etc, and we are all still human enough to ask "why me?" The big difference is that for some people this is the start of their rebellion against God, whereas some people say "I don't know why Lord, but I trust in you."

It's true that probably one of the biggest questions is "if there is a God why does he allow so much suffering?" Some non Christians may use this as an excuse not to believe, or find out further. They seem to hope that the question will stump the Christian and they won't be able to answer. Then they will have an excuse not to believe. If a non Christian is serious about finding an answer to this question, they will listen for an answer and join in a dialogue. But the Pharisees saw healing, and even resurrection, with their own eyes and still didn't believe - so it's no guarantee.

I actually agree with much of what you've said. My contention is that it is NOT your sickness or disablity that draws people to God. GOD draws people to Him. Period. Nothing I do or say or suffer will cause people to come to Him. HE must draw them. Whether I'm fit as a fiddle or sick as a dog is completely inconsequential to how people will respond to the unction of the Holy Spirit.