I don't get it...

Tamara224 said:

There are lots of people killed, beat, put in jail, etc, etc, who are unsaved as well. They suffer, but not for the Gospel's sake. The mere fact that it happens to unbelievers doesn't negate that it CAN happen FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE.

Macular degeneration can be suffering for the Gospel's sake if it becomes testimony to draw unbelievers to Christ. An unbeliever who sees someone suffering an illness, someone bearing it, enduring it, nay, someone being cheerful in it, someone glorifying God in it will see the light of God, the difference in that person. {This is one possible way it can be for the Gospel's sake}

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Possilby. Or they may think that person is crazy for glorifying a God who has all power to heal them, yet does not. I've seen both scenarios.

GOD draws men unto Himself. Our suffering does not draw people to God. His goodness draws men to repentance.

Tamara224 said:

I don't believe that suffering for the Gospel is limited to mean the suffering was caused because we were preaching the Gospel, it can mean that we suffer in many ways which furthers the Gospel.

BTW... can someone please point me to the verse that says our suffering is "for the sake of the Gospel" ... I can't find it right now. Thanks.

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Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

1 Corinthians 9:23
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Tamara224 said:

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


1 Corinthians 4:11-13
To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.

1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews...

2 Thessalonians 1:3-4
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

2 Timothy 2:10-13
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


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I don't know about you, but I want to be an endurer.

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Yep. I want to endure and persever for the Gospel's sake as well.

Where we disagree is what we must endure.

Jim M said:

But I do, Barb, because I believe the rest of the Bible. If I believed that God will not send sickness on His children I would have to ignore the following passages that say He , all of which diseases were sent by God on people in covenant with Him:

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Sincerely, ​

~Adam Baum



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I know, Jim. I should have qualified my statement somewhat but even Pete said that we reap what we sow. I think, though I didn't check each one, those verses are demonstrating reaping and sowing.

But for someone who has not walked out from under the covenant, I don't believe that God will lay illness on him. Job really doesn't count because it is obvious that Satan inflicted the damage, BUT God did permit it. And through no fault of Job's.

My point is that God might permit illness for a reason that has nothing to do with faith, sin, bitterness, (let's see - what else was there?) ummm jealousy, bad breath, And it's not for evil but for good, for our refinement, for our growth, for his glory that we glory in him and not in our circumstances.

I don't think I have anything intelligent to add, since I'm mostly just a lurker in these particular threads. But I've noticed more than once where one of the biggest issues seems to be in these sorts of spats:

WOF people thinking that non-WOF people believe that God's the one who sends the sickness to teach some sort of lesson, or thinking that Non-WOF'ers must think God isn't good and doesn't want them healed when all along, the non-WOF'ers DO know he's good and wants them healed, but only on HIS time and not on theirs.

And then Non-WOF people thinking that WOF people believe they can have what they want, when they want it, at the moment they call for it, that God is their personal Genee (oh gosh, how do you spell Gene? Jeanie...aww heck, the big guy that comes out when you rub the magic lamp), when all along, the Wof'ers are just trying to be who the Bible proclaims them to be as believers.

I've lurked enough to know that neither seems to be the case. I think each side is correct in different ways. It's just the middle ground that no one seems to be reaching it seems. Everyone is a believer here, I'm sure. It's just a matter of tying it all together. I guess that's why there's so many threads on the subject, huh?

Anyway, I think both sides are probably misunderstanding the other? Eh, that's too easy heh. But anyway, non-WOF'ers, to me, are simply saying that a sickness, though never EVER caused by God, isn't there just because the believer is doing something wrong or not enough or whatever, or because God is standing by aching to heal but isn't "able" to because the believer is still a little too human to figure himself out. A sickness brought on by the devil to rob someone of faith or to cripple them can and still will be used for good of God's glory.

I guess that's what endurance and being thankful even in your weakness is all about. It boils down to the whole, "what the devil meant for evil, God can make for good" thing. That even in sickness, a believer still has faith in God's ability to heal, even if he doesn't get it right then and there. That believer, even if he has all the faith and all the beliefs, still wants to keep in mind that God is in control, and for some reason, WOF'ers think that that suggests God is purposely keeping that sickness there because...well...I don't rightly know. I mean, isn't that what the book of Hebrews is all about? (If I'm not mistaken) I thought it talked about different degrees of faith, and how even some of those faith-believers died before getting anything from the Lord. Errr...is that Hebrews I'm thinking of?

Hmm...I think I've gone and confused myself. Oh well...my mesely two cents on the matter.

probinson said:

Possilby. Or they may think that person is crazy for glorifying a God who has all power to heal them, yet does not. I've seen both scenarios.

GOD draws men unto Himself. Our suffering does not draw people to God. His goodness draws men to repentance.
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And yet I was drawn to God during my husband's illness and was saved after my husband died. In fact, I would venture to say that most adults are saved during dire circumstances rather than pleasant. Death brought me to God's side - I had no where else to turn.

probinson said:

Well, the first thing we have to ask ourselves is does God "allow" us to die from a disease, accident or injury? If someone smokes 2 packs a day for 40 years and develops cancer, did God allow them to die of cancer, or am I reaping what I sowed? If I go out and speed on the highway and get in accident because I was breaking the law, did God allow my accident, or am I reaping what I sowed?

Granted, there are things that we can't explain where it seems as if it just happened because it happened and no other reason.

The Bible clearly and plainly states that we are to suffer for the Gospel's sake. I will ask again, since no one has answered, how sickness and disease is suffering for the Gospel's sake. There are people who are blind, they have cancer, they have whatever disease, sickness or disability you'd like to name, but are not saved. Are THEY too suffering for the Gospel's sake? Do you suddenly begin suffering "for the Gospel's sake" when you get saved? How does that work?

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Okay, forget the word ‘suffering’. How about any synonym you choose - enduring, bearing, hurting, throbbing, hardship, adversity, grief, hardship, illness, infirmity, misery, misfortune, ordeal, pain, martyrdom, torment, torture, anguish, calamity, depression, difficulty, affliction, agony, anguish, discomfort, distress, disorder, distress, plague, plight, scourge, sickness, sorrow, trial, tribulation, trouble, woe …

I just don’t catch your subtle difference between ‘suffering’ - for the Gospel's sake or for anyother reason - and any of these.

Sincerely,
~Adam Baum

Jim M said:

But I do, Barb, because I believe the rest of the Bible. If I believed that God will not send sickness on His children I would have to ignore the following passages that say He , all of which diseases were sent by God on people in covenant with Him:

Lev. 26. 14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.

Deut. 28. 20 The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish . . . 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed . . . 59 Then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Deut 32.39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

2 Sam 12. 15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became ill.16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground . . . 19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.”


2 Kings 15.5 Then the LORD struck the king, so that he was a leper until the day of his death; so he dwelt in an isolated house. And Jotham the king’s son was over the royal house, judging the people of the land.

2 Chron 7. 13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people.


2 Chron 21. 14 Behold, the LORD will strike your people with a serious affliction—your children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.


Psalm 38. 3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your anger, Nor any health in my bones.


Ezekiel 24.15 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “Son of man, behold, I take away from you the desire of your eyes with one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban on your head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and do not eat man’s bread of sorrow.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died;and the next morning I did as I was commanded.

Micah 6 Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, By making you desolate because of your sins.

1 Cor 11.30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.




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Sincerely, ​

~Adam Baum



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Blessings and curses in Old Testament, but Jesus took the curses for us in the New Testament.

Those in new Testament communion were sick, and died, because they did not discern the body of Christ broken for them. God didn't do it, they brought it on themselves.

BarbB said:

And yet I was drawn to God during my husband's illness and was saved after my husband died. In fact, I would venture to say that most adults are saved during dire circumstances rather than pleasant. Death brought me to God's side - I had no where else to turn.

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As I've stated before, God can USE any circumstance, no matter how dire. But it is the goodness of God, not sickness, disease and death that draw men to Him:

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

And with that, I'm out. Off to FUZION. I'll be back later tonight....

BarbB said:

I know, Jim. I should have qualified my statement somewhat but even Pete said that we reap what we sow. I think, though I didn't check each one, those verses are demonstrating reaping and sowing.

But for someone who has not walked out from under the covenant, I don't believe that God will lay illness on him. Job really doesn't count because it is obvious that Satan inflicted the damage, BUT God did permit it. And through no fault of Job's.

My point is that God might permit illness for a reason that has nothing to do with faith, sin, bitterness, (let's see - what else was there?) ummm jealousy, bad breath, And it's not for evil but for good, for our refinement, for our growth, for his glory that we glory in him and not in our circumstances.

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Why would God permit something that is not His will? Would He permit sin? How is saying He allows it so much different than saying He caused it?

Sincerely,
~Adam Baum

lunalinda said:

....
Anyway, I think both sides are probably misunderstanding the other? Eh, that's too easy heh. ....

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Thanks, lunalinda - I truly wish that we could settle this by agreeing to disagree and sometimes that seems to work but not lately.

I have argued this about traditional vs contemporary worship - same object, different style. That gets ignored also! :o

BarbB said:

And yet I was drawn to God during my husband's illness and was saved after my husband died. In fact, I would venture to say that most adults are saved during dire circumstances rather than pleasant. Death brought me to God's side - I had no where else to turn.

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Yes! Amen.

God is the one drawing people to Him. He uses whatever means He wills to get their attention. Only He knows their hearts and minds and what will open their eyes to His love.

Jim M said:

Why would God permit something that is not His will? Would He permit sin? How is saying He allows it so much different than saying He caused it?

Sincerely,
~Adam Baum

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Ha ha ha - that's for you pastors to explain to me! Especially the permitting sin bit!

Is this where I say that God is using the tools he finds in this world - our sin, others' sin, fallen world, sometimes surprising goodness, everything - to work his will?

Trials (of all kinds) are often a two-sided coin. One side trials may be viewd as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1,2,15-18; Hebrews 11:17). On the other side of the coin, Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13,14).

Trials regardless of the source is the reality of life. Corrie ten Boom testified this in her life and so did Joni Tada. Often people who faith is opposite to Corrie and Joni will ignore them and focus on man's doctrine that "God is GOOD" always. Yes.. God is good in HIS Will, not ours. Joseph in the Old Testament testified that it was God's will for him to go through trials.

Its interesting to see posts between reality versus fantasy.

JTM3 said:

That's absurd. You fail to distinguish different kinds of suffering and hold on to your theology for whatever stupid reason. And holding on to such theology seems quite stupid to me...

How can lump physical suffering with illness in with suffering for the Gospel?????? Suffering for the Gospel applies to when you are preaching abroad or something and people persecute you for it.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Do you even distinguish between the old and new covenants???

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I have a LONG list "kinds of sufferings" and how each means biblically. I can repeat this again (I post posted this list many many times.)

2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

franky67 said:

I'm WOF, not because of going to any WOF churches, or being mentored by the WOF teachers, but because of what Jesus demonstrated while He ministered on earth, and by what he taught.

I'm PHIA, because I believe God is a covenant keeping God.

God, in the OT God took a people to care for in all aspects of their lives.

He gave them instructions on what to do and what not to do, with blessings for them when they were obedient, and what they were to expect if they were not obedient, in the way of curses.

God said in both old and new testaments, that He is like a shepherd to His sheep, and He brought out that example many times. A Shepherd takes complete care of his sheep.

So, back to PHIA, God very surely included healing of His people in this covenant He made.

Jesus has been called the "Messenger of the Covenant" In Mal. 3:1

In Rom. 15:8 It says Jesus came to the Jews to confirm the promises given to the fathers, I take that to mean that Jesus came to confirm the Old Testament Abrahamic Covenant, which included healing.

In Galatians 3:13-29 It says that jesus became a curse for us that the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles. Also it says that Jesus is the seed of Abraham, and if we are "In Christ" we are heirs of all that was promised in the old covenant. BTW, the word "spiritual" is not included in verse 29, as in "spiritual blessings", as some believe.

Gal. 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise."

The Covenant is "everlasting" and a "thousand generations", or In other words, permanent.

If it's permanent, and it's not for all in Christ, then who is it for?

Healing was accomplished by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, and He made the blessing of Abraham available to all who are in Christ, this is why we hear many WOF teachers make the statement "Jesus is not going to heal you, He already has healed you."


All was completed at the finished work of Christ, nothing lacking.

IMHO

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bump

franky67 said:

Blessings and curses in Old Testament, but Jesus took the curses for us in the New Testament.

Those in new Testament communion were sick, and died, because they did not discern the body of Christ broken for them. God didn't do it, they brought it on themselves.

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Exactly, Franky! Why is this so hard to believe??? It's as if they don't want it to be true???

Jim M said:

Why would God permit something that is not His will? Would He permit sin? How is saying He allows it so much different than saying He caused it?

Sincerely,
~Adam Baum

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Free will.

God's will is that non shall perish, yet they do.

It's that thing called free will.

JTM3 said:

That's absurd. You fail to distinguish different kinds of suffering and hold on to your theology for whatever stupid reason. And holding on to such theology seems quite stupid to me...


How can lump physical suffering with illness in with suffering for the Gospel?????? Suffering for the Gospel applies to when you are preaching abroad or something and people persecute you for it.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Do you even distinguish between the old and new covenants???

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Suffering for the Gospel even applies when you are posting on CF and people mock you and call you extreme.

JTM3 said:

Why would anyone in their right mind be against PHIA??

Why would anyone not want to believe in prosperity?

As Dids rightly states in his post, if we seek God first, THEN these THINGS shall be added unto us; it's the relationship first, then the benefits.

I don't understand you people...there's nothing mystical about WoF, and we're not manipulating God. We're simply believing his promises.

So what if people don't get healed because THEY lack faith, not because it's a false doctrine??

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Well obviously I'm against it because I don't want to be healed in case I have to get a job or do something for God. And when I publicly testify to God's goodness I'm lying because I really believe that my Lord, Saviour and friend is a horrid God who has deliberately made me ill just for my own good?

Ok so the sarcasm's not a good idea, but I have had all these statements thrown at me in the past, and none of them are true. I have also asked several questions about WOF, which incidentally I hadn't heard of until I came on here, so any questions I have about it have come from the posts I've read. Not all of my questions have been answered, and I don't accept certain interpretations of Scripture.

What if God heals because God heals, and this is taken as justification that a doctrine is correct, but in fact it isn't?