I don't get it...

JimfromOhio · Jun 23, 2006

BenAdam said:
ah hah!!!! There it is. Christina, when healing doesn't happen, we just don't know why sometimes...... Don't blame us, don't blame God, just say I don't know.

Its nobody's fault. If healing does not happen, that means God have a plan and He will heal whenever He knows when the right time to heal. At times, some won't be healed at the time of their physical death, they still will receive the eternal promised.

JimfromOhio · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
But I believe we CAN know:

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

But then LOOK! There's a condition:

James 1:6
But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

and what happens if we do not believe and doubt when we ask?

James 1:7-8
That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

Yep.. those are some of many reasons why. But again, we creatures do NOT know. This is between God and the believer.

probinson · Jun 23, 2006

BenAdam said:
I didn't say we couldn't know Pete, people are just too quick to find an answer. I think it is important to find out. Smith Wigglesworth suffered with horrible kidney stones for a long time. I don't know why he didn't get healed immediatly, later on he did. Some people might have immediatly lumped him into the "you don't have faith to get healed" category.

Some may have, but I wouldn't.

I agree. Too many people are looking for a formula or a quick fix. They don't want to seek God for their healing. They want a 12-step program to health. We need to learn to seek God for EVERYTHING, not just for healing, and then be obedient to His voice no matter what He tells us.

probinson · Jun 23, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Yep.. those are some of many reasons why. But again, we creatures do NOT know. This is between God and the believer.

I agree. I don't know. But you can.

Is it wrong for me to tell you that? All I ever try to do is tell people to seek God for themselves. What could possibly be wrong with that?

BenAdam · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
Some may have, but I wouldn't.

I agree. Too many people are looking for a formula or a quick fix. They don't want to seek God for their healing. They want a 12-step program to health. We need to learn to seek God for EVERYTHING, not just for healing, and then be obedient to His voice no matter what He tells us.

Amen brotha!!!!!!

JimfromOhio · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
I agree. I don't know. But you can.

Is it wrong for me to tell you that? All I ever try to do is tell people to seek God for themselves. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Not if you tell me repeatly and still not healed. So you don't know my heart as God do. No knows my faith as I know your faith. Heck, even an unbeliever can pretend to be a Christian and we don't know it.

BarbB · Jun 23, 2006

Barb......

NONE of us have ever said God heals instantly every time. I've stood in faith for a long time sometimes.

But what I guess we disagree on is that those who are not healed instantly decide that, because they aren't, God WANTS them sick - for a reason, to teach them a lesson, whatever.

Instead, we should all know that if what is said in the Word (His Will) does not immediately come to pass, and since we know God is perfect, that it is something on our part that is holding it up. It can't be God's fault.... He is Love, Perfection, Good and Just.

Tina, thank you so much - like Pete's, this post was the sort of thing I've been looking for.

We non-WOF do not believe that if we are not healed right away that we won't be healed. Not at all. In fact, I would venture to say that most of us expect to be healed in this life. Rather, think of it this way. If God has not healed me due to a fault on my part, cannot he not let me know what that fault is? Of course he can. What about healing when we weren't searching for it? Like my depression. All I was doing was being worried about the cost of meds as I no longer have any health insurance (at all ). And I received a Word of Knowledge, don't worry about the cost - you won't need them any longer and I will protect your brain from any effects of taking meds you don't need. I received this as clearly as you and I speaking on the phone. And I was totally grateful - I was sick of the meds. But why heal me of depression and not asthma?

I wish this little composing box were bigger - I can't see what I've written.

jeolmstead · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
I would just like to say, suffering FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE and having a sickness or disease are NOT the same thing.

So your logic then is,

If I have faith God will deliver me from cancer

But, that same faith wont deliver me from the point of a spear?

Or, God can teach me or someone else a lesson by letting me get flogged but He could never do that through sickness? Ever?

So, if I suffer because I got beat up God can be glorified, but If I suffer with macular degeneration it is somehow a testimony to my unbelief?

I would say God can deliver me from all these things or He can give me grace to endure. In either case He will be glorified.

John O.

BarbB · Jun 23, 2006

That's why I would love to read your blog, John. Well, I'll just read your posts instead!

probinson · Jun 23, 2006

jeolmstead said:
So your logic then is,

If I have faith God will deliver me from cancer

But, that same faith wont deliver me from the point of a spear?

THE BIBLE tells us that we will have to suffer FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE. I didn't say that. It's not my "logic". It is the Word of God.

jeolmstead said:
Or, God can teach me or someone else a lesson by letting me get flogged but He could never do that through sickness? Ever?

You're moving the goalposts. God can teach me a lesson in sickness. That doesn't mean He sent sickness on me.

jeolmstead said:
So, if I suffer because I got beat up God can be glorified, but If I suffer with macular degeneration it is somehow a testimony to my unbelief?

Please, oh please, could someone tell me how macular degeneration is suffering FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE. There are lots of people that have macular degeneration that are not saved. Are they suffering FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE?

jeolmstead said:
I would say God can deliver me from all these things or He can give me grace to endure. In either case He will be glorified.

John O.

I don't believe grace translates to "endure". We are called to be more than conquerors. Not endurers.

Christina M · Jun 23, 2006

BenAdam said:
Don't blame us, don't blame God, just say I don't know.

Ben, Ben,

Living a life with your head buried in the sand isn't too much fun

JimB · Jun 23, 2006

jeolmstead said:
So your logic then is,

If I have faith God will deliver me from cancer

But, that same faith won’t deliver me from the point of a spear?

Or, God can teach me or someone else a lesson by letting me get flogged but He could never do that through sickness? Ever?

So, if I suffer because I got beat up God can be glorified, but If I suffer with macular degeneration it is somehow a testimony to my unbelief?

I would say God can deliver me from all these things or He can give me grace to endure. In either case He will be glorified.

John O.

IMO, suffering is suffering is suffering whether it be a physical sickness or being stone for preaching the Gospel (not stoned while preaching the Gospel ). Why would being allowed to put in jail for the Gospel's sake be more “good” than a migraine headache or being tortured and killed for the Gospels sake be more “good” than dying of a disease? To say that we consider God “bad” when He allows His children to suffer a physical infirmity but “good” when He allows them to die for the Gospel’s sake (as did Stephen and James and the Christian fed to lions by the Romans) begs a clearer definition of what is meant by the phrase “God is good.” Of course He is good, but that's not all He is. He is good even when we suffer.

Sincerely,
~Adam Zappel

BenAdam · Jun 23, 2006

Christina M said:
Ben, Ben,

Living a life with your head buried in the sand isn't too much fun

I'm not saying ignore it, I'm talking about the quick judgement put on people.

JimB · Jun 23, 2006

BenAdam said:
I'm not saying ignore it, I'm talking about the quick judgement put on people.

From another thread:

I am trying to understand something.

Why is God considered not being good when he allows a Christian to die of a disease (or accident or injury) and good when He allows them be tortured and killed for the Gospels sake? How is He considered bad if He allows the former and good when He allows the latter? How do you define good and bad?

Sincerely,
~Adam Zappel

BarbB · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
....
You're moving the goalposts. God can teach me a lesson in sickness. That doesn't mean He sent sickness on me.

....

Pete, I just caught this. Would you feel better if I said that I do not believe that God sends sickness on one of his cherished children? For I do not believe that he does.

Tamara224 · Jun 23, 2006

probinson said:
Please, oh please, could someone tell me how macular degeneration is suffering FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE. There are lots of people that have macular degeneration that are not saved. Are they suffering FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE?

There are lots of people killed, beat, put in jail, etc, etc, who are unsaved as well. They suffer, but not for the Gospel's sake. The mere fact that it happens to unbelievers doesn't negate that it CAN happen FOR THE GOSPEL'S SAKE.

Macular degeneration can be suffering for the Gospel's sake if it becomes testimony to draw unbelievers to Christ. An unbeliever who sees someone suffering an illness, someone bearing it, enduring it, nay, someone being cheerful in it, someone glorifying God in it will see the light of God, the difference in that person. {This is one possible way it can be for the Gospel's sake}

I don't believe that suffering for the Gospel is limited to mean the suffering was caused because we were preaching the Gospel, it can mean that we suffer in many ways which furthers the Gospel.

BTW... can someone please point me to the verse that says our suffering is "for the sake of the Gospel" ... I can't find it right now. Thanks.

I don't believe grace translates to "endure". We are called to be more than conquerors. Not endurers.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

1 Corinthians 4:11-13
To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.

1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews...

2 Thessalonians 1:3-4
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

2 Timothy 2:10-13
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I don't know about you, but I want to be an endurer.

probinson · Jun 23, 2006

Jim M said:
From another thread:
I am trying to understand something.

Why is God considered not being good when he allows a Christian to die of a disease (or accident or injury) and good when He allows them be tortured and killed for the Gospels sake? How is He considered bad if He allows the former and good when He allows the latter? How do you define good and bad?

Well, the first thing we have to ask ourselves is does God "allow" us to die from a disease, accident or injury? If someone smokes 2 packs a day for 40 years and develops cancer, did God allow them to die of cancer, or am I reaping what I sowed? If I go out and speed on the highway and get in accident because I was breaking the law, did God allow my accident, or am I reaping what I sowed?

Granted, there are things that we can't explain where it seems as if it just happened because it happened and no other reason.

The Bible clearly and plainly states that we are to suffer for the Gospel's sake. I will ask again, since no one has answered, how sickness and disease is suffering for the Gospel's sake. There are people who are blind, they have cancer, they have whatever disease, sickness or disability you'd like to name, but are not saved. Are THEY too suffering for the Gospel's sake? Do you suddenly begin suffering "for the Gospel's sake" when you get saved? How does that work?

franky67 · Jun 23, 2006

JTM3 said:
Why would anyone in their right mind be against PHIA??

Why would anyone not want to believe in prosperity?

As Dids rightly states in his post, if we seek God first, THEN these THINGS shall be added unto us; it's the relationship first, then the benefits.

I don't understand you people...there's nothing mystical about WoF, and we're not manipulating God. We're simply believing his promises.

So what if people don't get healed because THEY lack faith, not because it's a false doctrine??

Why is it so horrible to tell them that? There..

I might be beating a horse, but I think not, especially after certain people continue to post in opposition...

-Just a thought

I'm WOF, not because of going to any WOF churches, or being mentored by the WOF teachers, but because of what Jesus demonstrated while He ministered on earth, and by what he taught.

I'm PHIA, because I believe God is a covenant keeping God.

God, in the OT God took a people to care for in all aspects of their lives.

He gave them instructions on what to do and what not to do, with blessings for them when they were obedient, and what they were to expect if they were not obedient, in the way of curses.

God said in both old and new testaments, that He is like a shepherd to His sheep, and He brought out that example many times. A Shepherd takes complete care of his sheep.

So, back to PHIA, God very surely included healing of His people in this covenant He made.

Jesus has been called the "Messenger of the Covenant" In Mal. 3:1

In Rom. 15:8 It says Jesus came to the Jews to confirm the promises given to the fathers, I take that to mean that Jesus came to confirm the Old Testament Abrahamic Covenant, which included healing.

In Galatians 3:13-29 It says that jesus became a curse for us that the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles. Also it says that Jesus is the seed of Abraham, and if we are "In Christ" we are heirs of all that was promised in the old covenant. BTW, the word "spiritual" is not included in verse 29, as in "spiritual blessings", as some believe.

Gal. 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise."

The Covenant is "everlasting" and a "thousand generations", or In other words, permanent.

If it's permanent, and it's not for all in Christ, then who is it for?

Healing was accomplished by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, and He made the blessing of Abraham available to all who are in Christ, this is why we hear many WOF teachers make the statement "Jesus is not going to heal you, He already has healed you."

All was completed at the finished work of Christ, nothing lacking.

IMHO

probinson · Jun 23, 2006

BarbB said:
Pete, I just caught this. Would you feel better if I said that I do not believe that God sends sickness on one of his cherished children? For I do not believe that he does.

Bravo! A point of agreement!

JimB · Jun 23, 2006

BarbB said:
Pete, I just caught this. Would you feel better if I said that I do not believe that God sends sickness on one of his cherished children? For I do not believe that he does.

But I do, Barb, because I believe the rest of the Bible. If I believed that God will not send sickness on His children I would have to ignore the following passages that say He , all of which diseases were sent by God on people in covenant with Him:

Lev. 26. 14 But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.

Deut. 28. 20 The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish . . . 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed . . . 59 Then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plaguesgreat and prolonged plaguesand serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Deut 32.39 Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

2 Sam 12. 15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriahs wife bore to David, and it became ill.16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground . . . 19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

2 Kings 15.5 Then the LORD struck the king, so that he was a leper until the day of his death; so he dwelt in an isolated house. And Jotham the kings son was over the royal house, judging the people of the land.

2 Chron 7. 13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people.

2 Chron 21. 14 Behold, the LORD will strike your people with a serious afflictionyour children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.

Psalm 38. 3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your anger, Nor any health in my bones.

Ezekiel 24.15 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 Son of man, behold, I take away from you the desire of your eyes with one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban on your head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and do not eat mans bread of sorrow. 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died;and the next morning I did as I was commanded.

Micah 6 Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, By making you desolate because of your sins.

1 Cor 11.30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Sincerely,

~Adam Baum

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