I dont feel guilty when I touch..problem?

[Theofane]

I dont feel guilty when I touch..problem?

I always feel guilty when I do that.

I know that I'm seeking after the flesh (which is a hindrance to spiritual growth) but I also know that I can't help myself. I'm not a monk and I'm not a saint. Sometimes I resent my heterosexuality because I know how it can lead me away from the spiritual and right into the lap (no pun intended) of the carnal.

 

[Humble Pie]

I think there are questions from which you can draw a conclusion. I'm not suggesting either way, just asking:

1. Is the habit making you too passive in your search for a wife?
2. Are you becoming complacent about the purpose of intimacy?
3. Do you plan to marry oneday or remain single?

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

 

[candle glow]

I say I want to give it my best to do it as little as possible..but not to where I am risking health problems becuase of the lack of release. Stay away from lust and porn

You seem to have a good handle on your life and I wanted to just encourage you to continue to treat yourself nicely, as you are now. It's refreshing to read your posts in this thread.

I also want to thank bro for his more reasoned approach to this topic. MB is not something which can be taught or taught against en mas. It's personal decision to be worked out between God and the individual.

Because sex thoughts, in general, can easily lead to lust thoughts, constant evaluation of our thoughts is necessary to be sure we've not slipped over into lust.

i appreciate bro's consideration for "health problems" but I think the main issue regarding the build-up of sexual tension is in relation to spiritual problems. People who repress, repress, repress sexual desires for the sake of being "holy" almost always end up expressing that sexual frustration is blatantly immoral ways.

Sometimes they get angry with God, sometimes they cave in to temptation to fornicate, and sometimes they express their frustration in more extreme ways like rape or assault of some kind.

When a person does it they usually have immoral sexualised thoughts at the time time, and that's a sin!

How do you know what a person thinks about, truthseeker? What research have you compiled to substantiate your conclusion? I'm not totally against what you are suggesting here, but I do ask that you support your conclusion with reason. How do you know what people think about?

The OP brought up the question of feeling guilty. It's worth noting that consciences aren't necessarily signs of whether something is right. While God may illuminate us directly, in normal practice parents put effort into developing children's conscience. Your feelings will depend to a large extent upon your background. Part of being a Christian is developing your conscience.

I feel this is a reasoned comment. Thanks for sharing it, hedrick. While our conscience can be a very useful guide to reminding us about right and wrong, it is important to note that the conscience is not infallible; it can be trained.

There is a verse in the NT which goes something like "if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart". I believe this verse is at least partially referring to a "trained" conscience which MUST be put into submission to God's spirit speaking contrary to the training.

If you arne't thinking of ANYTHING, then I think its not a sin.

hello again, freaky. I agree with most of what you say, but I think I've mentioned this to you before, but I also find it difficult to understand what you mean when you say you touch to thoughts of "nothing". MB is very much a sexual activity, though it is not sex in itself.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong in what you are sharing, but that it really is quite difficult to understand how one can perform a sexual activity without thinking of something sexual.

I'm not asking you to share personal details of your life (please don't do that on a public forum) but that there is some legitimate reason for people to be confused by the way you are expressing this idea of "thinking of nothing" when simulating sex.

I think there are questions from which you can draw a conclusion. I'm not suggesting either way, just asking:

1. Is the habit making you too passive in your search for a wife?
2. Are you becoming complacent about the purpose of intimacy?
3. Do you plan to marry oneday or remain single?

Interesting questions, and I look forward to a response to them.

In a situation where fornication is off limits and the marriage bed is rejected, mb becomes a valuable tool for those who seek to avoid either situation while still struggling with sexual frustration.

 

[brohammer26]

Humble pie. No it is in no way causing me not to look for a wife. I do not consider a habit because I do not do it often and it is only when I get to a point of extreme buildup. Like I stated before I am a shorter guy about 5'7''. I am deceant looking (which is not as important to women as height) and have a toned body because I work out so I do get some attention, I just find that most women when it comes to marriage want a guy who is tall. IT just makes it more difficult. I do have a good job and good values. I try to work with what I have. My current situation is where I live there is no prospects available really. There just seems to be a total lack of christians in germany. I have met one christian girl on a dateing site who lives in Iceland and is moving here soon and we seem to like eachother so who knows...maybe we will meet and fall in love? But I am only here for another year.

But yes I want to try to do it as little as possible and may even see if I could quit, it just seems rather infeasible at a certain point. I see my spirtual walk as baby steps I guess. I have receantly started to feel more confident and 'marriage worthy'...something I have never felt in the past..maybe the spirit is letting me feel this now as it is getting closer to 'my time' and have adopted right values and mindsets.

 

[candle glow]

Hey broH,


A friend of mine wrote something on the topic of Christian dating which you may find interesting, even if you don't agree with everything he shared.

------



The Western concept of dating has gone on for so long now that most people fail to appreciate that it is a fairly recent innovation in human history. In fact, even today, most of the world has not accepted the practice, even though many of us living in the West assume that it is universal.


In some societies young people are able to interact under the watchful eye of a chaperone. However, in many others (like India) young men and women have almost no social contact at all until they are introduced to one another by their parents a short time before they are to be married. These days they are generally given the option, after their first meeting, of refusing the choice made by their parents; but it does not guarantee that the next choice will not be even worse. It is generally regarded as a sign of respect to one's parents to trust Mum and Dad's wisdom in selecting a suitable mate.


It is also interesting that arranged marriages have an extremely high success rate, while almost half of the marriages formed in the West end up in divorce!
Members of our community believe that dating in general has been a product of lazy parenting, and that it is directly responsible for the sexual promiscuity that exists in Western society. Many failed marriages are also the result of the (slack) dating approach to human relationships.



In India, marriages which are not arranged by the parents are called "love marriages". It sounds romantic to our Western frame of mind. However, the term is one of contempt. It implies promiscuity and the strong possibility that the marriage was necessitated by the bride becoming pregnant. The concept of "falling in love" has, until the arrival of satellite TV, been either unheard of or totally ludicrous to the Eastern mind.


For much of the Third World, love is not regarded as a feeling; it's regarded as an act of the will. Two young people who have been put together by arrangement through their parents do not have to "fall" for one another. Instead, they "choose" to be faithful to each other as proof of a love which goes beyond emotional thrills.



Most couples report that an emotional bond forms as well. But it is a by-product of a deeper commitment, and not the essence of their relationship. And this faithful commitment by the couple to love one another whether or not they feel like it, has been largely lost in the West, as a result of romanticism and the dating mentality.


Parents who have any hope of their children remaining virgins until their wedding day sabotage those same hopes by encouraging young people to spend hours together on their own in leisure activities.
The entire entertainment industry has dropped any pretence of morality with regard to sex. A generation which encouraged kissing and cuddling amongst good friends out on dates a generation ago, now accepts that promiscuous sex is normal and even healthy at the end of a date. Anyone who entertains thoughts of celibacy is considered a social misfit in today's society.
And we Christian parents have ourselves to blame for the situation.
Sure, there is overwhelming opposition to our stand from the secular world, but what have we done to challenge it? Perhaps we gave little lectures to our young people before sending them off to the cinema or to the discos together. But how many of us dared to challenge the entire practice of dating? How many of us questioned whether the movies and the dances themselves were encouraging sexual thoughts and sexual contact? We were more worried that our sons and daughters might be seen as prudes than we were about their morality.


Within our community we have combined what we believe are the benefits of arranged marriages with the benefits of dating. We don't "arrange" marriages, but we do chaperone all activities. Singles not only have contact with one another, but they actually live together, seven days a week.


They do chores together, worship together, eat together, engage in Christian outreach and social work together, and play games together. But all of it is done in the presence of other committed Christians. Even engaged couples are rarely out of sight of other Christian brothers and sisters. If the couple wish to discuss private matters, they can do so out of earshot, but within sight, of others in the community.


Right up to the time of marriage, couples do not kiss, cuddle, or even hold hands, much less indulge in sexual foreplay or intercourse.* Being engaged means that they will be assigned tasks which they can undertake together, so that they can get to know one another better. By the time they marry, they know more about one another than do many couples in the secular world who have been married for several years.


But, by the same token, if they decide to call off the marriage one hour before the ceremony, they have no need to feel embarrassed in each other's company because of past sexual liberties.


*For the sake of honesty, some couples felt we should state that they did not always totally follow the rules. However, one engaged couple who had only held hands reported that even that much contact became a problem when they later decided to break off the relationship. A few years ago, two of our members who had been engaged, called off their engagement, and they each ended up marrying someone else in the community.



There have been no problems with embarrassment or jealousy, because being engaged merely meant that they had spent time working together. How much better this is than the present practice amongst Christians of offering free samples to prospective marriage partners.


But of course, we were only able to make it work because we established a Christian community where everyone in it subscribed to the same high standards. People within the community do not date people from outside the community. If anyone outside the community is interested in getting to know community members, then they are welcome to join in with our chores, outreach, meals, etc. as though they were members of the community.



It is only natural to expect that they would join our community if they eventually decided to marry. But there is no need for our members to go off to movies, dances, or even to dinner alone with someone of the opposite sex.


Call it oppressive if you like, but we prefer to think that it is good sense, and that it comes from a fair understanding of what the whole dating game is leading to.
Because our members want to stay chaste, they consider this approach to be immensely superior to the dating game and all of the spiritual dangers that it brings with it.

 

[mytel]

masturbation is an action not a thought process. For me it is possible to seperate the two (lust/sexual thoughts and mb) and think of 'nothing', however i find sexual thoughts are more frequent after and in the following days after mb, as if it brings sexuality to the forefront and clouds my mind. So in some sense it causes me to sin. I find when i stop mb for long periods of time, things are much easier, i dont have that guilt, or the heavy heart feeling i have when i do mb, and much less sexual thoughts. I havent been able to stop fully though, i have gone several months a few times, then slip up,etc.. Though i have trained myself to not have lustful thoughts during the act, i still feel it arouses more temptation and thoughts afterwards, so for me its not something i want to continue. Someone posted an article mentioning Lev 15:16-18, i would be interested in ppls thoughts regarding this.

 

[brohammer26]

Yes I do think that it is quite possible to do it without thinking those types of thoughts. Some may disagree but I think it is possible.

 

[brohammer26]

DO some here also think that the viewing of porn and thoughts of lust come from or own pain and felt sense of rejection? I know that what it was like for me in the past. I felt rejected a lot by the opposite sex so I dove into fantasies and viewing of porn to a point of unhealthyness that eventually led to a period of my life that i was filled of sexual sin with fornication.. and the thoughts that I was not worthy of true love (before I was with christ).

 

[apache1]

Why should you feel guilty?

 

[candle glow]

Someone posted an article mentioning Lev 15:16-18, i would be interested in ppls thoughts regarding this.

Here are the verses in question

LEV 15:16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.

LEV 15:17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.

But, compare it with another verse from Leviticus...

Leviticus 15:19-30 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.

This phrase "unclean" does not appear to equate to "sin" in the way it sounds to us in this day. Otherwise, a woman would be sinning any time she had her period and a man would be sinning any time he has a "wet dream".

It sounds more like Leviticus is describing common sense health rules (as opposed to rules about sin in general). Bodily fluids have the potential to spread infection/disease so rules were made to teach people to be clean.

A good example of this was the bubonic plague back in the 14th century. The Jews suffered noticeably less casualties than other ethnicities specifically BECAUSE they had so many rules about hygiene . These rules helped to stem the spread of bacteria within their communities. To them it was a religious exercise, but from a practical point of view it was instructions on basic health rules.

 

[phishin4min]

Lot of people say it is sin, lot of people says it is not. A lot of people say with the kind of boderline not sure of sin's to listen to your conscience. I have done research and I get the same answer. Some people say it is a gift from god to use to control ourself to not have immoral sex. Others say it is a sin against the body because the spirity is in it. The bible does not say anything specific. The problem is I just do not feel guilty about it. It keeps me from chaseing women for sex which I had a huge problem with in the past. I know this has been covered before, I guess my question is more along the lines of should I feel wired for not feeling guilt for it?

I remember the first time I used God's name in a curse word, I litterally thought I would be struck by lighting, soon it was like any other word and I felt no guilt at all...............conviction never last forever, sometimes you are even given over to a debased mind when you decide to trade the truth for a lie

 

[candle glow]

Why should you feel guilty?

There are good reasons to feel guilty. Sometimes it can be constructive, but other times it can be destructive. Another way to put it is "conviction vs condemnation".

Conviction comes from God and always gives us an opportunity to change (provided we recognize our sin), but condemnation comes from satan and offers no real hope; only bad feelings.

An example of this is Judas vs Peter. They both denied Jesus and yet, one of them repented while the other could see no hope. One experienced conviction while the other experienced condemnation.

I believe that, with mb, most people feel guilty because they've not been taught about the different between lust thoughts and sex thoughts. Because the two can be so closely related (and easily confused), most religious people take the approach that it's better to be safe than sorry and so they lump everything relating to sex thoughts in the same category as sin.

But that is a spiritually immature way of dealing with the issue. Peter believed it was "unclean" to eat specific kinds of food. God had to practically command him to go against his understanding of religious purity in order to help him learn how to be flexible when it comes to working with the spirit.

The same basic principle applies to our sexuality. We cannot, by sheer force of will, become asexual, and neither has God asked us to. We must become flexible in our understanding of what is lust and what is not.

Although we can talk about general spiritual principles, ultimately it is up to the individual to examine himself/herself regarding where the line is between sex thoughts and lust thoughts.

It takes discipline and gut-level honesty to come to honest conclusions about this, though. We can cheat each other about what really happens in the secret places of our minds, but we cannot cheat God.

Although I disagree with prohibition against mb in general, I do agree that it can be very tricky at times. My advice is for each individual to try to get a better understanding of what really is lust.

Although I have some trouble understanding how freaky can mb without thinking about anything, I can't tell him he's wrong for it. How could I? He has his own personal relationship with Jesus.

I think it should be that way for all of us. We should feel confident about correcting one another, but we should also respect one another's personal relationship with Jesus, too.

 

[Johnnz]

There is also false guilt and demonic accusations. Guilt is not always that reliable.

John
NZ

 

[mytel]

Yes i agree Candleglow, i wouldnt equate unclean to sin either, and the verse is not specific about whether it means nocturnal emission or mb. Actually Duet 23:10 specifies nocturnal emission, but it isnt specified in Levitcus, i would think it could probably only mean either one of the two, since the following verse mentions man with woman. I think here uncleanness, as you say is in more respect to health considerations, and not sin.

 

[SamsoniteBaggage]

Lot of people say it is sin, lot of people says it is not. A lot of people say with the kind of boderline not sure of sin's to listen to your conscience. I have done research and I get the same answer. Some people say it is a gift from god to use to control ourself to not have immoral sex. Others say it is a sin against the body because the spirity is in it. The bible does not say anything specific. The problem is I just do not feel guilty about it. It keeps me from chaseing women for sex which I had a huge problem with in the past. I know this has been covered before, I guess my question is more along the lines of should I feel wired for not feeling guilt for it?

It is best to wait, instead of turning to masturbation. Problem with masturbation is it gives performance anxiety and satisfies you, so you do not feel motives to go out and find available women.

This is why the bible strictly forbids "spilling your seed on the ground".

 

[CounselorForChrist]

It is best to wait, instead of turning to masturbation. Problem with masturbation is it gives performance anxiety and satisfies you, so you do not feel motives to go out and find available women.

That was always my thing, er I used MB to avoid wanting to go find sex. And for me it also helped improve my "performance" when the day came that I had sex.

This is why the bible strictly forbids "spilling your seed on the ground".

Actually I used to use that verse to until I was taught it had to do with that particular story, it wasn't a rule for us in general.

Although I have some trouble understanding how freaky can mb without thinking about anything, I can't tell him he's wrong for it. How could I? He has his own personal relationship with Jesus.

Yeah, I want nothing but to please God. So if I ever felt that MB even without lust was wrong I'd stop. Its more important I be a good christian then MB. Its why I stopped lusting when I MB because of the guilt.

I should say theres alot more invovled on how I cam to the conclusion that MB (without lust) was ok. Lots of prayer, guidance and even fasting. I in all honesty felt like God was telling me MB was ok if I didn't lust. Maybe it was a test from him to see if I could do it without lusting, because if I couldn't then obviosuly I'd have to stop period.

Also I have medical conditions that have somewhat ruined my abillity to MB or have sex in general. And my doctor said if I don't want to have sex until marraige I should at least MB when I can because if not with what I have I will lose my ability yo even get happy eventually or feel pleasure. I know sex is not that important. But when I get married next year I still want to be able to have sex so I can connect with my spouse on a level thats very personal to me.

I've heard so many horror stories about men who lose the ability to get happy or even have pleasure and they feel depressed over it because their spouse can see the sex is somewhat meaningless to them. It becomes a task rather then a time time to be romantic. >.<

And offer the same people $1 million if they stop, and miraculously they stop. SO go figure, how do you explain that?

I'd stop for a million. Mainly because it means I can afford to get my fiance here, get married and then sex would happen so I wouldn't need MB. lol

Although that does make you think. I notice alot of people say MB is wrong....except for when your married. How is being married diffrent? MB is still MB either way. I guess most assume its ok because your thinking of your spouse so its not bad. But if its a bad act in general then I'd think you wouldn't do it even when married.

Which leads to yet another question. What if you want to be a sperm donor? That sperm doesn't magically apeear unless you MB. And in my case if I want to get a sperm count, again I have to MB to produce it. Does God see it as a sin then? Theres to many variables and things that don't add up which is why I think MB is ok as long as there is on lust.

 

[sk8brdkd]

i dunno if i really want to answer this question or not

i believe touching yourself is wrong, however, i do it as well -- and some of the times i do it, i do think perverse thoughts and dirty things go thru my mind, other times, it just "feels good" and i don't think anything other then that

for me, i think i do it bc i'm lacking in any relationship w/ someone and i guess sometimes, i want to get into those "dirty thoughts" and one way to feel better is to touch and to fantasize bout stuff.

tho, several yrs ago, masterbating started innocently enough for me, but, in a short time, it led me to some things MUCH worse and it took lots for me to get thru that (about 7 yrs) and although i broke free from the other "stuff" i still touch bc it just makes me feel good inside.

i hate this subject though -- not sayin anything else bout it.

 

[St. Paul]

Lot of people say it is sin, lot of people says it is not. A lot of people say with the kind of boderline not sure of sin's to listen to your conscience. I have done research and I get the same answer. Some people say it is a gift from god to use to control ourself to not have immoral sex. Others say it is a sin against the body because the spirity is in it. The bible does not say anything specific. The problem is I just do not feel guilty about it. It keeps me from chaseing women for sex which I had a huge problem with in the past. I know this has been covered before, I guess my question is more along the lines of should I feel wired for not feeling guilt for it?

I personally don't think you should feel guilty. I'm kind of on both sides of the fence. Sometimes I feel guilty and beg God for forgiveness as soon as I'm done and other times I don't feel guilty at all. I agree with you in that masturbation is a good way to control urges and keep us from engaging in immoral sex.

 

[brohammer26]

Not just for controlling urges but just for the healthyness of having the 'release' every now and then. We get built up and if we let it linger and can cause health problems especailly for males. I have never had a wet dream even when I abstained for 3 months at one point..

I think the main thing is just not to abuse it or get into the thoughts of lust or viewing of porn.

 

[candle glow]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts, sk8brdkd, though I think the issue of "dirty thoughts" is not synonymous with mb. I believe people in general are able to control their thoughts to the point that there is a difference between "sex thoughts" and "lust thoughts" (though there are always exceptions to such things, too).

I think the main thing is just not to abuse it or get into the thoughts of lust or viewing of porn.

Excellent point. The hard part is learning how to recognize when we've slipped over from sex thoughts in general to lust thoughts in specific...