I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

Avatar said:

That I'm not a Nazi shouldn't need to be addressed, I'd assume its a given. And I consider likening pro-lifers to Nazis to be an insult.

Click to expand...

And so you felt it was better to insult her back than to state why you feel the comparison was false?

WatersMoon110 said:

And so you felt it was better to insult her back than to state why you feel the comparison was false?

Click to expand...

Seriously? I'm supposed to explain why I'm different than a nazi?

Avatar said:

Seriously? I'm supposed to explain why I'm different than a nazi?

Click to expand...

Avatar,
Just don't rise to that level that is all. I would have been insulted also, but intelligence will always win over ignorance and logic over emotion. Just be better than that. That is all. Believe me I understand. There are times when I would like to wring the necks of some that are for abortion. That doesn't get us anywhere though. I am sure they feel the same about us at times.

Lisa

Do pro-choice folks believe at minimum a fetus is living? While they may not consider it a baby, do they consider it living?

Avatar said:

Seriously? I'm supposed to explain why I'm different than a nazi?

Click to expand...

No, but you could have explained what a later poster did, that Nazis were, by no means, Pro-Life. She didn't call you a Nazi. She stated a partial truth about Nazis outlawing abortions, for some people. The entire truth is that they also made abortions mandatory, for other people (then killed a whole bunch of those people).

But, you know, I'm sure getting angry was far more productive for you.

WatersMoon110 said:

But, you know, I'm sure getting angry was far more productive for you.

Click to expand...

Now who's getting personal?

suzybeezy said:

Do pro-choice folks believe at minimum a fetus is living? While they may not consider it a baby, do they consider it living?

Click to expand...

I would hope so, since it is living (meeting all the definitions of life). As are the two sex cells it forms from. Life does not come from non-life.

"Baby" is somewhat a vague term. It can apply to humans from the stage of birth to crawling. It can mean the youngest in the family (my "baby" brother is 18 now). It can just be a term of endearment. Or it can be applied to unborn and newly born humans. But none of these definitions is the only right one. And how and why it is applied to a given human (or other animal) is a matter of opinion, really.

Avatar said:

Now who's getting personal?

Click to expand...

*rolls eyes*

You call someone else a horrible person, and claim that everyone agrees with you, and then question me when I state that you must have gotten something out of getting angry over a post rather than responding to it on an intellectual level?

I didn't say "don't get personal". I said that it would be more productive for the debate if you stated why you felt the post was incorrect rather than just insulting the poster.

If you feel I was incorrect in this, why not explain why?

WatersMoon110 said:

*rolls eyes*

You call someone else a horrible person, and claim that everyone agrees with you, and then question me when I state that you must have gotten something out of getting angry over a post rather than responding to it on an intellectual level?

I didn't say "don't get personal". I said that it would be more productive for the debate if you stated why you felt the post was incorrect rather than just insulting the poster.

If you feel I was incorrect in this, why not explain why?

Click to expand...

First off, stop misquoting me. I did not call her a horrible person I asked 'do you know how horrid you appear..'. There is a difference.

Secondly, I see no reason to respond 'intellectually' to the assertion that I'm a Nazi.

Thirdly, I don't know what you're getting out of this exchange but I've had quite enough of you judging me. As such our exchange is done.

Avatar said:

First off, stop misquoting me. I did not call her a horrible person I asked 'do you know how horrid you appear..'. There is a difference.

Secondly, I see no reason to respond 'intellectually' to the assertion that I'm a Nazi.

Thirdly, I don't know what you're getting out of this exchange but I've had quite enough of you judging me. As such our exchange is done.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was paraphrasing, as you are each time you claim that she called you a Nazi. There is a difference between claiming that the Nazis were Pro-Life (which they were not in any way - just Pro-Controlling and Killing People) and calling all Pro-Lifers Nazis. *grin*

If you don't want to continue talking about why you feel it is better to dismiss people with sarcasm and anger instead of actually explaining why their posts are incorrect in your opinion, don't respond to me. Put me on your ignore list if you can't deal, or don't wish to deal, with my posts.

I'm sorry if you feel I am judging you. It was not my intention to do so, or to make you feel that way. I am simply trying to convince someone that debating is better than dismissing, so that actual debating can happen. However, feel free to just dismiss this post as well. *wink* Seriously though, I am just trying to explain why I feel that it is always better to explain why a post is horrible than to just call it such (or do both!), since it leads to better discussion about a topic, and also helps to better eliminate falsehoods and partial truths, like the post in question. *grin*

well hey, these threads on abortion always end in a blaze. this one didn't do too bad, 36 pages.

A fetus is a woman's property until it ceases to be inside her.

...just trying to get us back on track.

Atheuz said:

Maybe you didn't think while reading my post, people who get pregnant on accident are generally irresponsible and won't bother going to the trouble adopting it away or taking it to an orphanage. They'll just take the easiest path out, and if Abortion is blocked what is left? Abandoning it.

Click to expand...

People who get pregnant on accident? I just woke up one day and I was pregnant. Sorry, people don't get pregnant on accident. There is not any birth control that is 100% effective, so any sex is always life creating potential, and I must say that I am still picking up my jaw from your earlier post about early pregnancy being compared to parasites. (cells leeching off of the host) For 4 months and 29 days, you see the pregnancy as hosting a parasite, until some magical 5 month birthday, oh wait it can't be a birthday because that would imply life, never mind, some magical day of 5 month something or other, when it magically becomes a life, and then is worth something. I am just, wow.

Avatar said:

Yeah, that's the only option people have.

Did you think before you typed that?

Click to expand...

Did you think before deciding to take on some idealist view of the world?
Turns out, some people in the world are bad.

And also, I'm really tired of the only pro life argument being "So you say it's okay to kill a 9-month old fetus?" i.e. one of the first responses to this thread.
No.
I don't.
In fact, most pro-choice people don't agree with late-term abortion, so stop bringing it up and come up with a legitimate argument.

In addition to that, I'd also like to request that we stop asking when the baby gets a say. Biologically, it is not alive until the 5th month. Constitutionally, it has no rights. Not even the right to live, technically. So, that's another argument with no basis in, like, you know. Fact.

And I agree with the thread starter-- If you don't want an abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE. Goodness. What a novel idea.

Christian Soldier said:

Modern medical science confirms that life begins at conception.

Click to expand...

Were that true, the medical profession would summarily drum out Docs who perform abortions. But they are among the most respected colleagues because of their courage to stand up to terrorists even as some of them wear bullet proof vests.

Women who believe they have a right to kill their babies are the ones making emotional judgements, and very unsound ones at that.

Click to expand...

Oh, really? First of all abortion is in no form "killing" of "babies" except in the imaginations of those whose reason is bourne away by rhetoric. Second, abortion is among the safest of all medical procedures. The decision to abort is certainly sound when it occurs. Primarily it is based on economic considerations, the bulk of which are among the most rational of decisionmaking a person engages in.

Christian Soldier said:

I knew it wouldn't be long before one of the pro-death crowd brought up the Nazis.

Nazi Germany forbade only those women considered to be of "good Aryan blood" to have abortions, because it's pretty hard to build a "thousand year reich" without a lot of "good Aryans".

However, the Nazis MANDATED abortions for women considered to be "biologically inferior", i.e. Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Latins etc. The Nazis performed forced abortions on THOUSANDS of non-Aryan women who refused to get voluntary abortions. Many others were forcibly sterilized before they could get pregnant.

Your attempt to "poison the well" fails miserably, but Goebbels would've been proud of your effort!

Click to expand...

Sir, you do not know me. I challenge you on the assertion as you sneeringly put it that I am "of the pro-death crowd" because I do not truck with the government claiming title to women's bodies. That you chose to make such a cowardly and unfounded assertion certainly speaks to your character. We of the pro-choice faction are not in any form "pro-death" because we are literally fighting for women's lives against those who see them as nothing but mere baby factories. We have not bought into the ficticious notion a blastocyst is morally equivalent to a person. We oppose needless death of women; we merely deny an emotionalistic concoction of rhetoric and we will defeat your cowardly faction which misrepresents the truth in its quest to oppress women.

The rhetoric in the post to which this one is replying and its use of assumptions, jumping to conclusions, false accusations, and the cruel denigration of women is typical of the rhetoric of authoritarian regimes. That the Nazi regime had varied policy of all matters depending upon the ethnicity, status, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc., of its subjects is known to all with a rudimerntary familiarity with its history. The authoritan mindset of both the Third Reich and Ceaucesceau's Romania were based on rhetoric of ethnocentrism and exclusion of certain others such as trade unionists and homosexuals, not unlike the hatred of such groups put forth by the current right-wing movement in America which seeks to demonize immigrants, Muslims, LGBTs, and so on.

The use of oppression of women to gain the support of weak-minded men is among the oldest tricks in the book. The Nazis and Ceaucesceau were not the first to use it nor will they be the last.

Criminalization of abortion would be a disaster as a public policy, leading to further fascistic measures, not that it will ever be enacted by a free society. The antiabortion faction uses fiction ("a fetus is a person") to fool the gullible, but in terms of raw numbers, utterly fails. These days, the pro-choice majority is increasing.

Know this and know this well: eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. The right-wing in this country is being watched and countered at every turn. They just don't like it and therefore resort to unfortunate avenues of rhetoric in their ceaseless attempts to fool the public.

Avatar said:

My bad, apparently. Likening pro-lifers to Nazis is a-okay, I guess.

Click to expand...

Are you aware that an abortion doctor who gave his life because he fought for women's lives, Dr. Bernard Slepian, was Jewish? That Jews are among the medical providers who serve this population disproportionately? That many leaders of the pro-choice organizations are Jewish? This is no accident. They know fascism when they see it. What else would you call making midnight phone calls to threaten the receptionist at a clinic? Sending Anthrax powder to clinics? Stalking doctors, nurses, and receptionists? Committing acts of arson, vandalism, and terrorism? There is an eerie similarity between Kristallnacht and the assasination of doctors and the bombing of clinics. What's that you say? Most antiabortion people don't do that? No? Most who voted for the Nazi Party did not beat Jews either. But the leadership benefitted from whipping up the hatred against them just as the leadership of today's rightwing movements benefit from whipping up the hatred against women and their Jewish doctors.

Romanseight2005 said:

People who get pregnant on accident? I just woke up one day and I was pregnant. Sorry, people don't get pregnant on accident. There is not any birth control that is 100% effective, so any sex is always life creating potential

Click to expand...

Sorry, but lots of people get pregnant by accident. The fact that sex can result in a pregnancy does not mean no pregnancies are accidentaly. By your logic, there are no such things as car accidents (since all driving can result in a collision).

Romanseight2005 said:

and I must say that I am still picking up my jaw from your earlier post about early pregnancy being compared to parasites. (cells leeching off of the host) For 4 months and 29 days, you see the pregnancy as hosting a parasite, until some magical 5 month birthday, oh wait it can't be a birthday because that would imply life, never mind, some magical day of 5 month something or other, when it magically becomes a life, and then is worth something. I am just, wow.

Click to expand...

Biologically, the fetus is a parasite until delivery.

Electric Skeptic said:

Sorry, but lots of people get pregnant by accident. The fact that sex can result in a pregnancy does not mean no pregnancies are accidentaly. By your logic, there are no such things as car accidents (since all driving can result in a collision).

Click to expand...

Cars are not designed to be in collisions, they are designed to transport people from one place to another. Sex is designed to create a baby, in the sanctity of marriage. People have reduced it to a past time, and want to throw away what comes of it.

Biologically, the fetus is a parasite until delivery.

Click to expand...

Biologically, the baby is dependent on its mother for everything until she is old enough to fend for herself. If you want to deny that she is alive, that is legally your prerogative, but it doesn't change the truth.

Texas Lynn said:

Are you aware that an abortion doctor who gave his life because he fought for women's lives, Dr. Bernard Slepian, was Jewish? That Jews are among the medical providers who serve this population disproportionately? That many leaders of the pro-choice organizations are Jewish? This is no accident. They know fascism when they see it. What else would you call making midnight phone calls to threaten the receptionist at a clinic? Sending Anthrax powder to clinics? Stalking doctors, nurses, and receptionists? Committing acts of arson, vandalism, and terrorism? There is an eerie similarity between Kristallnacht and the assasination of doctors and the bombing of clinics. What's that you say? Most antiabortion people don't do that? No? Most who voted for the Nazi Party did not beat Jews either. But the leadership benefitted from whipping up the hatred against them just as the leadership of today's rightwing movements benefit from whipping up the hatred against women and their Jewish doctors.

Click to expand...

Thats the biggest load I have ever read.