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I don't believe in evolution... (2)

Zongerfield

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To Zongerfield

I would like to summarize what I believe is the status of this thread on Evolution.

I have been with the Christian Forums for many years and most of my discussions have been to show God as both a Loving God and a Righteous God. My discussions of God as a Righteous God has angered many.

Atheists were not able to defeat me because I provided Biblical references for my positions, but Atheists were not really concerned because they thought I had no influence (no one agreed with me).

Then you came along and that really worried the Atheists. Since they could not kill the message, the Atheists decided to kill the messenger.

The tactic being used now is "Straw Man Exaggerations".

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

When I talk about executing evil people that are a treat to society, that is exaggerated into advocating genocide.

Now you know why Christians have been driven into their prayer closets.

I want Christians to come out of the prayer closet and speak for the Lord.


Thank you for your honest and candid reply. I totally agree with your last sentence. I wonder how many other do to (perhaps this is a point where we can all agree)? It is important that we not hide in closets because of what others think is "right."


Bless you. I will pray for you.
 
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Snow Phoenix

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Do you consider advocating, condoning or participating in adultery and homosexual activity as being cruel and hurting other people?

Adultery: Depends on how you define it. Lusting, sex outside of marriage etc? No, it's not cruel and it hurts nobody else. Cheating in a marriage? Yes, it hurts the other person, but should only (potentially) end in divorce or forgiveness; no executions here.

Homosexuality: If it's between 2 or more consenting adults... absolutely not.

The execution of a few that advocate, condone and participate in evil is a small price to pay to prevent the misery of millions.

Except you 1) never been able to show how ether of these things are inherently 'evil', and 2) how they cause any cruelty or suffering (besides cheating in a marriage). Then 3) how the infinite punishment of death is just punishment for a finite crime.
 
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Snow Phoenix

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When I talk about executing evil people that are a treat to society, that is exaggerated into advocating genocide.

If you state that all homosexuals should be rebuked 3 times, and if they don't change their ways (somehow) then they should be executed by the state... you are promoting the genocide of gay people.

That's plain and simple.
 
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TheReasoner

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Wait don't you forgive her too?!

Why should he? It appears he finds her bloodlust appealing. Which is - to put it mildly - disturbing.

Zongerfield: Why are you okay with Clirus' repeated calls for genocide/ethnic cleansing? How can you justify that kind of hatred? I also wonder at something you have not answered: you now know how left wing and liberal I am. Does this make you hate me? Note that Clirus does not respond when I ask if she wants me dead. Note further that according to her quotes I should be on the list, because I am a socialist among other things. Do you agree with the sentiment that I should die for pleading the cause of the weak?

I suggest you and Clirus watch this:
YouTube - Heart to heart on: The heart of darkness

Note that I wonder why and how you both can so readily advocate the deaths of others - and as Lazaar says, justify this by religion and in opposition to the life and teachings of Christ. We all do sin, but why do you try to mascarade your desire to kill those whom Jesus died to save as righteousness?
 
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sdmsanjose

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Reply by Clirus
Atheists were not able to defeat me because I provided Biblical references for my positions


Quotes by Clirus
I believe the failure of a man to provide for his family should require execution of the man.

Enact Absolute Paternity legislation that would execute the father of a child that fails to make child care payments for an illegitimate child.

There are NO biblical referenses for your position.
You DO NOT provide biblical quotes so don’t think that we believe your lies
 
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TheReasoner

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There are NO biblical referenses for your position.
You DO NOT provide biblical quotes so don’t think that we believe your lies

Precisely. Furthermore, sdms, tulc, iamnot87 and me are all christians. Many others who are believers have also criticized you very harshly. And rightly so.

Besides Clirus, most of us have given plenty of biblical references as to why your position is neither a christian nor a biblical position in any way.
This you have ignored. But as sdm says: don't think we are fooled by your lies Clirus.
 
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Zongerfield

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Wait don't you forgive her too?!

Why would I forgive her? She's treated me with deference. She's not the one telling me I'm haughty, that I'm a hypocrite, that I'm too obsessed with the love and grace of the Lord and that I should reconsider my covenant with the lord, that my experiences are invalid, and that my way of interpreting the bible is akin to "dancing with purple unicorns." I reserve forgiveness for degradation and derision of this sort. Not for people who have been kind and patient to with me.

I don't hate socialists. However, they have an askew view of how the world works. They seek to punish the producers and reward the moochers. They seek to end the notion of private property in exchange for state property. They believe in the notion of big government, and government knows best. They're statists. And statists don't believe in individual rights and individual liberty.

Socialism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. Fascism doesn't work.

Capitalism works.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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I don't hate socialists. However, they have an askew view of how the world works. They seek to punish the producers and reward the moochers. They seek to end the notion of private property in exchange for state property. They believe in the notion of big government, and government knows best. They're statists. And statists don't believe in individual rights and individual liberty.

Socialism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. Fascism doesn't work.

Capitalism works.

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
(Acts 4:34-37)
 
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Charlie V

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Capitalism works.

Capitalism works... if your goal is to make destitute the workers and innovators that drive the economy.

The lie of capitalism is that it rewards the hard work of people. I will give two examples of what I'm talking about: One, famous, the other, little known, but known to me.

In the 1930s, Jerry Seigal and Joe Shuster created something new. They came up with a character we all know: he wears a blue suit with a red cape and a big "S" on his chest, and bullets bounce off his chest. Superman! After going from one company to another trying to get a some attention to their character, they finally got a deal with D.C. Comics and Action Comics#1 came out in June, 1938. They had a job, and things were great... until Superman became more popular. Then, in the mid 1940s, D.C. Comics took the creator's name off the character and fired them. As D.C. Comics raked in hundreds of millions of dollars from Superman, his creators got odd jobs cleaning up in bowling alleys for minimum wage. It wasn't until they were old men that the courts finally gave them a small, paltry sum for their creation.

The second story is about a man who invented a product also worth hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars. In the 1970s and before, when you had a severe cut or injury, you would go to the doctor or hospital and get stitches. Then, you'd have to go back and get the stitches removed, a painful procedure that sometimes left scars or caused infection. Then, in the late 1970s, a man working for Johnson & Johnson invented something that changed the world: Sutures that absorb into your skin. They are now the standard in every hospital, used by every doctor.

The man that invented them: My father, who spent his life studying chemistry and microbiology in order to develop the skills to make that invention. At the time, he was making around $35,000 a year working for Johnson and Johnson. Even as the company was making millions from his product, they laid him off. He searched for another job, but was overqualified for everything. He eventually lost the house, and had to buy a trailer home that leaked and had mold problems. I used to bring him groceries. Then, one day I went to visit him. His legs were blue and swollen. He said, "I'll get better, I'll get better." I said, "Dad, you should be in a hospital." He didn't want to bother me to tell me he couldn't afford the $10 copay to go to the doctor. He died not long afterward.

Let me say that again: In our capitalist society, a man who invented a multi-billion dollar product ended his life living in poverty in unhealthy conditions in a trailer park and relying on others to provide him with groceries, and died for lack of a $10 copay to see a doctor.

I'm not saying socialism works, or facism works, or communism works.

I'm saying capitalism certainly and most definitely does not work.

Capitalism does what you accuse other systems of doing: Punishes the workers and rewards "the moochers," who I would describe as the penny pinching folks who have multi-million dollar annual salaries, who are dishonest and whose titles have acronyms like CEO and CFO, not to mention the money changers who work on Wall Street. I do not consider poor folks who are thrown crumbs (most of whom are hard workers, by the way) moochers.

What we need is a new "ism." Better yet, to abandon the "isms." We need an concept where checks and balances prevent what happened to my father, what happened to Siegal and Shuster, what happens to millions of hard working people who are treated like slaves by big corporations only to be left in poverty . We do not need a laissez faire form of capitalism where things like this can happen to my father--or, as in the early 1900s, where rich companies can have little children working 20 hour days, 7 days a week in coal mines.

What I just described, child labor in brutal and unsafe conditions, that is unregulated capitalism. And it does not work. Unless by "work" you mean, make the rich incredibly, astronomically wealthy while making the poor destitute and the middle class nonexistent, because they're all poor.

The less you regulate, the more you create that atmosphere. Ayn Rand was wrong. Regulation is not an evil, nor is regulation socialism.

The very basis of what you are saying is logically fallacious because it assumes that there are only four business models: Socialism, Communism, Facism and Capitalism. This is the logical fallacy called the "false dilemma." It says, "These are the only choices, and only one works."

The facts are that capitalism does not work, and there are an infinite number of business, economic and societal models to choose from--indeed, there are as many ways to structure a society's economy as there are human beings with a brain and an imagination.

I'm going to paraphrase John Lennon to conclude: Everybody's talking about this ism, that ism, ism, ism ism. All I am saying is give the people a chance.

Charlie
 
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Charlie V

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Do you consider advocating, condoning or participating in adultery and homosexual activity as being cruel and hurting other people?

Please do not lump two different things like that together.

Adultery is itself a cruel behavior. When you commit adultery, you are being cruel to your spouse. I do not approve of it.

My sister-in-law is a lesbian. She and her partner are just as normal as I and my wife. They have a loving relationship, they have well adjusted children, they are at peace with themselves, society and yes, with God. I love them, and they are beautiful, wonderful people.

There are those in this world who are cruel to them. I do not condone their cruel behavior.

Charlie
 
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Zongerfield

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Capitalism works... if your goal is to make destitute the workers and innovators that drive the economy.

The lie of capitalism is that it rewards the hard work of people. I will give two examples of what I'm talking about: One, famous, the other, little known, but known to me.

In the 1930s, Jerry Seigal and Joe Shuster created something new. They came up with a character we all know: he wears a blue suit with a red cape and a big "S" on his chest, and bullets bounce off his chest. Superman! After going from one company to another trying to get a some attention to their character, they finally got a deal with D.C. Comics and Action Comics#1 came out in June, 1938. They had a job, and things were great... until Superman became more popular. Then, in the mid 1940s, D.C. Comics took the creator's name off the character and fired them. As D.C. Comics raked in hundreds of millions of dollars from Superman, his creators got odd jobs cleaning up in bowling alleys for minimum wage. It wasn't until they were old men that the courts finally gave them a small, paltry sum for their creation.

The second story is about a man who invented a product also worth hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars. In the 1970s and before, when you had a severe cut or injury, you would go to the doctor or hospital and get stitches. Then, you'd have to go back and get the stitches removed, a painful procedure that sometimes left scars or caused infection. Then, in the late 1970s, a man working for Johnson & Johnson invented something that changed the world: Sutures that absorb into your skin. They are now the standard in every hospital, used by every doctor.

The man that invented them: My father, who spent his life studying chemistry and microbiology in order to develop the skills to make that invention. At the time, he was making around $35,000 a year working for Johnson and Johnson. Even as the company was making millions from his product, they laid him off. He searched for another job, but was overqualified for everything. He eventually lost the house, and had to buy a trailer home that leaked and had mold problems. I used to bring him groceries. Then, one day I went to visit him. His legs were blue and swollen. He said, "I'll get better, I'll get better." I said, "Dad, you should be in a hospital." He didn't want to bother me to tell me he couldn't afford the $10 copay to go to the doctor. He died not long afterward.

Let me say that again: In our capitalist society, a man who invented a multi-billion dollar product ended his life living in poverty in unhealthy conditions in a trailer park and relying on others to provide him with groceries, and died for lack of a $10 copay to see a doctor.

I'm not saying socialism works, or facism works, or communism works.

I'm saying capitalism certainly and most definitely does not work.

What we need is a new "ism." Better yet, to abandon the "isms." We need an concept where checks and balances prevent what happened to my father, what happened to Siegal and Shuster, what happens to millions of hard working people who are treated like slaves by big corporations only to be left in poverty . We do not need a laissez faire form of capitalism where things like this can happen to my father--or, as in the early 1900s, where rich companies can have little children working 20 hour days, 7 days a week in coal mines.

What I just described, child labor in brutal and unsafe conditions, that is unregulated capitalism. And it does not work. Unless by "work" you mean, make the rich incredibly, astronomically wealthy while making the poor destitute and the middle class nonexistent, because they're all poor.

The less you regulate, the more you create that atmosphere. Ayn Rand was wrong. Regulation is not an evil, nor is regulation socialism.

The very basis of what you are saying is logically fallacious because it assumes that there are only four business models: Socialism, Communism, Facism and Capitalism. This is the logical fallacy called the "false dilemma." It says, "These are the only choices, and only one works."

The facts are that capitalism does not work, and there are an infinite number of business, economic and societal models to choose from--indeed, there are as many ways to structure a society's economy as there are human beings with a brain and an imagination.

I'm going to paraphrase John Lennon to conclude: Everybody's talking about this ism, that ism, ism, ism ism. All I am saying is give the people a chance.

Charlie

Sorry to hear about your father.

Also, I wasn't presenting a false choice, I was merely presenting the truth. I should probably clarify something first. Nothing exists in its pure form, not socialism, not capitalism, not communism, nothing. There is no "free-market." There are only markets that are relatively "free" when compared to the ultimate theoretical paradigm of "free market." That said, I personally believe the freer the market, the better. But again, my point is we have a quasi-socialistic society now (medicare, medicaid, social security, free education). And I don't want to see this country steer further down a wayward path. The amount of socialism we already accept in our government is too much. We need to scale it back further and move toward a more constitutionally limited government.

And to address your stories, yes, people get taken advantage of all the time. There's a saying that Walt used to tell me all the time, "Chance favors the prepared mind." In other words, if you come up with a great idea, you need to be prepared. You need to learn the legalese of patents, and copyrights, etc. The onus is on you. We live in a society where caveat emptor is the law of the land. Unscrupulous buyers will be taken advantage of, that's the way the world works. One needs to take personal responsibility and not depend on others to take care of them. Don't get me wrong, there are circumstances where elderly persons or mentally challenged individuals need assistance, but by in large, we live in a free society, not a nanny state. And that's what makes this country dynamic. The greatest country on god's green earth. You start punishing the producers, the inventors, with high taxes and absurd regulations, they're gonna pack up and move to China or India or Brazil - where capitalism is on the rise (yes, China is slowly learning that capitalism, not communism, is the way to increase commerce and grow the GDP).

Lastly, for every story like your dads and the other two gentlemen, there are millions of stories where people came from nothing, worked hard, and achieved riches beyond their wildest dreams. This is called the American Dream. And the way to ruin this dream for everyone is to turn our society into a bunch of geldings and underachievers because there's no point in working hard for something if you're gonna tap out at 60 grand a year.
 
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Snow Phoenix

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Socialism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. Fascism doesn't work.

Capitalism works.

Free-market capitalism, in a perfect world, is an ideal system. The problem is, those who are one top get there by greed and manipulation of the system.

There's a reason the economy collapsed in 2008 -- Greed.

We'll see how happy you are about capitalism when the world reject the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency, and the US can't just print away its debt anymore. Then your economy will literally come crashing down to a steaming pile of greed, manipulation and poor planning.

The US has lived beyond its means for decades and decades. It can only last so long. Every other country must export as much as it imports to keep its money stable, but not the US, because it's the only country in the world that can print the US Dollar.
 
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Snow Phoenix

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Lastly, for every story like your dads and the other two gentlemen, there are millions of stories where people came from nothing, worked hard, and achieved riches beyond their wildest dreams. This is called the American Dream. And the way to ruin this dream for everyone is to turn our society into a bunch of geldings and underachievers because there's no point in working hard for something if you're gonna tap out at 60 grand a year.

The american dream died. It hasn't been around for decades. Why? Because everybody overworks. You literally cannot get ahead in the world. Sure, there's that 1-in-a-million person who manages it, but for the very most part, you're going to die in whatever class you were born into. The rich die rich, the middle-class die middle-class and the poor die poor.
 
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HosannaHM

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The american dream died. It hasn't been around for decades. Why? Because everybody overworks. You literally cannot get ahead in the world. Sure, there's that 1-in-a-million person who manages it, but for the very most part, you're going to die in whatever class you were born into. The rich die rich, the middle-class die middle-class and the poor die poor.

Sadly, this is a cruel reality. Just check the stats
 
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sdmsanjose

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Quote of Zongerfield
But again, my point is we have a quasi-socialistic society now (medicare, medicaid, social security, free education). And I don't want to see this country steer further down a wayward path.

I have read several of your posts where you focus on cutting the services to the poor, the sick, elderly, widows and their children. Why do you concentrate on cutting those people?
 
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Notamonkey

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The american dream died. It hasn't been around for decades. Why? Because everybody overworks. You literally cannot get ahead in the world. Sure, there's that 1-in-a-million person who manages it, but for the very most part, you're going to die in whatever class you were born into. The rich die rich, the middle-class die middle-class and the poor die poor.
You are institutionalized for the collective. Why work hard, it's just gonna be taken from you and given to someone else. Socialism makes it near impossible to go from nothing to being wealthy. There you have it slothfulness is encouraged. The hard workers are punished.
 
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TheReasoner

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You are institutionalized for the collective. Why work hard, it's just gonna be taken from you and given to someone else. Socialism makes it near impossible to go from nothing to being wealthy. There you have it slothfulness is encouraged. The hard workers are punished.

*sigh* the old americonservative mantra. Don't help the poor and don't give them equal opportunities because it 'encourages sloth'

Tell me, why do you think socialism harms hard workers? What basis do you have for that conclusion?

Is it bad to support a livable minimum wage?
Is it bad to ensure that everyone - regardlessof personal wealth - can get as much education as their minds can handle?
Is it bad to ensure everyone gets the healthcare they need?


If it is so terrible, mister americonservative, why has it worked with such great success in the Scandinavian countries? This question is one I am yet to see answered properly and not deflected.
Besides, how can you as a Christian support a consumerist system which is filled with socio-Darwinian elements? Doesn't the bible condemn societies and individualsboth when said neglect the weak and poor?

Your conclusion is not one I see any basis for. Unless you make mankind so selfish and egocentrical that each individual becomes unable to consider anyone's good but their own short term benefit, in effect making us no better than the most basic animals.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Capitalism works... if your goal is to make destitute the workers and innovators that drive the economy.

The lie of capitalism is that it rewards the hard work of people. I will give two examples of what I'm talking about: One, famous, the other, little known, but known to me.

In the 1930s, Jerry Seigal and Joe Shuster created something new. They came up with a character we all know: he wears a blue suit with a red cape and a big "S" on his chest, and bullets bounce off his chest. Superman! After going from one company to another trying to get a some attention to their character, they finally got a deal with D.C. Comics and Action Comics#1 came out in June, 1938. They had a job, and things were great... until Superman became more popular. Then, in the mid 1940s, D.C. Comics took the creator's name off the character and fired them. As D.C. Comics raked in hundreds of millions of dollars from Superman, his creators got odd jobs cleaning up in bowling alleys for minimum wage. It wasn't until they were old men that the courts finally gave them a small, paltry sum for their creation.

The second story is about a man who invented a product also worth hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars. In the 1970s and before, when you had a severe cut or injury, you would go to the doctor or hospital and get stitches. Then, you'd have to go back and get the stitches removed, a painful procedure that sometimes left scars or caused infection. Then, in the late 1970s, a man working for Johnson & Johnson invented something that changed the world: Sutures that absorb into your skin. They are now the standard in every hospital, used by every doctor.

The man that invented them: My father, who spent his life studying chemistry and microbiology in order to develop the skills to make that invention. At the time, he was making around $35,000 a year working for Johnson and Johnson. Even as the company was making millions from his product, they laid him off. He searched for another job, but was overqualified for everything. He eventually lost the house, and had to buy a trailer home that leaked and had mold problems. I used to bring him groceries. Then, one day I went to visit him. His legs were blue and swollen. He said, "I'll get better, I'll get better." I said, "Dad, you should be in a hospital." He didn't want to bother me to tell me he couldn't afford the $10 copay to go to the doctor. He died not long afterward.

Let me say that again: In our capitalist society, a man who invented a multi-billion dollar product ended his life living in poverty in unhealthy conditions in a trailer park and relying on others to provide him with groceries, and died for lack of a $10 copay to see a doctor.

I'm not saying socialism works, or facism works, or communism works.

I'm saying capitalism certainly and most definitely does not work.

Capitalism does what you accuse other systems of doing: Punishes the workers and rewards "the moochers," who I would describe as the penny pinching folks who have multi-million dollar annual salaries, who are dishonest and whose titles have acronyms like CEO and CFO, not to mention the money changers who work on Wall Street. I do not consider poor folks who are thrown crumbs (most of whom are hard workers, by the way) moochers.

What we need is a new "ism." Better yet, to abandon the "isms." We need an concept where checks and balances prevent what happened to my father, what happened to Siegal and Shuster, what happens to millions of hard working people who are treated like slaves by big corporations only to be left in poverty . We do not need a laissez faire form of capitalism where things like this can happen to my father--or, as in the early 1900s, where rich companies can have little children working 20 hour days, 7 days a week in coal mines.

What I just described, child labor in brutal and unsafe conditions, that is unregulated capitalism. And it does not work. Unless by "work" you mean, make the rich incredibly, astronomically wealthy while making the poor destitute and the middle class nonexistent, because they're all poor.

The less you regulate, the more you create that atmosphere. Ayn Rand was wrong. Regulation is not an evil, nor is regulation socialism.

The very basis of what you are saying is logically fallacious because it assumes that there are only four business models: Socialism, Communism, Facism and Capitalism. This is the logical fallacy called the "false dilemma." It says, "These are the only choices, and only one works."

The facts are that capitalism does not work, and there are an infinite number of business, economic and societal models to choose from--indeed, there are as many ways to structure a society's economy as there are human beings with a brain and an imagination.

I'm going to paraphrase John Lennon to conclude: Everybody's talking about this ism, that ism, ism, ism ism. All I am saying is give the people a chance.

Charlie

When someone says 'Capitalism works', the question that immediately comes to mind is 'works to what end?' I'm sure that it works to encourage human productivity, ingenuity and innovation. But at its extreme and most unregulated form it also serves a different end: that of the wealthy and powerful. Does that mean that we abandon Capitalism altogether for fear that it will produce an elite class of astronomically wealthy cliques? No, we modulate the system. We introduce moderation in the form of checks and balances that address our concerns. Too frequently this is confused with 'Socialism' or 'Communism', and once it has acquired such a connotation, it is often regarded as undesirable, or worse yet, something to be feared.

There might be reason to think that the -isms we've been using are completely outdated. As Charlie pointed out, there are many and varied ways of structuring an economy, and no thriving economy ever fully resembles its prototypes (i.e. Capitalism, Communism and so on). Furthermore, recent research has led us to question traditional models of human motivation and incentive. It turns out that we may have placed too much emphasis on the profit incentive, ignoring the various other factors crucial to motivating human behaviour, productivity and innovation. If we want to structure an economy that is maximally productive (as well as allowing for the realization of human potential), then these factors other than profit must be taken fully into account.

Which again leads us to that same fundamental question: Our economy works, but what ends does it serve? The ends of the rich? The ends of the government or political class? Or the goals of having human potential liberated and realised? The notion that only the purest form of unregulated Capitalism, or only the most unadulterated form of Socialism, can give us the ultimate one-size-fits-all answer is, I believe, naivete.
 
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Snow Phoenix

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You are institutionalized for the collective. Why work hard, it's just gonna be taken from you and given to someone else. Socialism makes it near impossible to go from nothing to being wealthy. There you have it slothfulness is encouraged. The hard workers are punished.

I'm not talking about 'socialism', I'm talking about social democracy... the slightly more moderate system that all of the highest ranked countries in the world adhere to.

Somehow they don't have any of these problems you're describing.
 
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