I don't believe in evolution... (2)

bricklayer said:

There is no spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.
There is no such thing as chance.

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QED? Wow, with such a well reasoned argument it's a wonder the whole world isn't full of creationists!

Just kidding. Study some DNA replication and perhaps you'll understand how information and complexity can increase. Then study some physics and realize that the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to the earth because it's not a closed system... it gets added energy from the sun.

Chance and selection. It's what brought you here today.

Zongerfield said:

Now, one thing I know for sure, is that Clirus would not have me executed for associating with sinners or grifters or lechers or atheists or liberal wastrels or what have you, she knows that I am a good Christian, she knows that my association with those individuals is to help them find the Lord. I don't partake in their illegal activity or their perversions, I simply expose them to scripture and, believe me or not, most of the time they find the path to righteousness.

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This is by the very definition of the term condescending to the highest degree. It also gives you a nauseating appearance of trying to seem holier than thou.

If you came to my church and you saw what we do there, you would definitely be "affected" by our love and our tradition. Dare I say, you would be inspired.

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Most of us are inspired by all sorts of charity and good works. I love to volunteer my time and see the fruit that it bears, and I love and respect all who also do it.

What doesn't inspire me is when this charity isn't given for free, but with strings attached. Yes, I know many do what they do because of their Christianity, and they only reveal that fact to those who see their actions and inquire as to why they are doing it, but there are still those who use their position of charity to proselytize their beliefs and attempt to recruit as many as they can to their religion.

I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you. I know that the Lord loves you, and maybe one day, you'll realize this too. And if/when you do, I would like you to recall this conversation.

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Oh man, the condescension is just dripping off these words. Do you really not realize how the words you use are betraying your true feelings?

You're forgiving somebody who has done nothing to you, and has done nothing to require forgiveness. Praying is all well and good, but when you get into preemptive forgiveness it just goes right over the top.

Zongerfield said:

Clirus is probably not the only individual that would have had Walt executed. Maybe others here feel that way too. After all, Walt was an aggressive and enthusiastic pederast until he found our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, one thing I know for sure, is that Clirus would not have me executed for associating with sinners or grifters or lechers or atheists or liberal wastrels or what have you, she knows that I am a good Christian, she knows that my association with those individuals is to help them find the Lord. I don't partake in their illegal activity or their perversions, I simply expose them to scripture and, believe me or not, most of the time they find the path to righteousness.

If you came to my church and you saw what we do there, you would definitely be "affected" by our love and our tradition. Dare I say, you would be inspired.

I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you. I know that the Lord loves you, and maybe one day, you'll realize this too. And if/when you do, I would like you to recall this conversation.

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Are you even reading what people are saying? i"m not following

Zongerfield said:

Clirus is probably not the only individual that would have had Walt executed. Maybe others here feel that way too. After all, Walt was an aggressive and enthusiastic pederast until he found our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Most pedophiles have two things in common: They are notoriously hard to rehabilitate, and they are experts at guile, manipulaton, and deception.

God bless you for thinking that Walt's a model citizen now -- just don't ever leave him alone with kids.

Now, one thing I know for sure, is that Clirus would not have me executed for associating with sinners or grifters or lechers or atheists or liberal wastrels or what have you,

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Most people wouldn't gamble their lives on clirus' mercy.

she knows that I am a good Christian, she knows that my association with those individuals is to help them find the Lord.

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Does she now? So as long as you're a "good Christian" be her definition, you think you're safe?

I don't partake in their illegal activity or their perversions, I simply expose them to scripture and, believe me or not, most of the time they find the path to righteousness.

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If you say so. I know from clirus' own words that she wouldn't waste the time with anything she considered a threat to her.

If you came to my church and you saw what we do there, you would definitely be "affected" by our love and our tradition. Dare I say, you would be inspired.

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"Inspired to what end?" is the question you might want to ask. But don't mind me -- continue boasting.

I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you. I know that the Lord loves you, and maybe one day, you'll realize this too. And if/when you do, I would like you to recall this conversation.

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Why? Are you worried that I might be brought to God without you getting credit for the "assist"?

Zongerfield said:

Clirus is probably not the only individual that would have had Walt executed. Maybe others here feel that way too. After all, Walt was an aggressive and enthusiastic pederast until he found our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Paul was an avid anti-christian persecutor. Clirus would have had him killed, too. And Nicky Cruz. And many many more. A certain biblical quote comes to mind: "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay"

Zongerfield said:

Now, one thing I know for sure, is that Clirus would not have me executed for associating with sinners or grifters or lechers or atheists or liberal wastrels or what have you,

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I would not be sure. You'd be safe until you disagreed I think. You see, Clirus doesn't want people like you around, you're "soft on sin".

Regardless, can you really stand by as Clirus gains power and starts killing people she doesn't like?
Is it your task as a Christian to defend someone whose position is that most human beings should be killed in Jesus' name, or is it your task as a Christian to speak up against such blasphemy?

Zongerfield said:

she knows that I am a good Christian, she knows that my association with those individuals is to help them find the Lord. I don't partake in their illegal activity or their perversions, I simply expose them to scripture and, believe me or not, most of the time they find the path to righteousness.

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And what path is that? The american conservative path? I cannot, as a christian, see the christian validity of that path. I do not see Christ in it. I do not see compassion in it. I do not see humility, peace, or compassion in it. If I'm wrong, show me.

Zongerfield said:

If you came to my church and you saw what we do there, you would definitely be "affected" by our love and our tradition. Dare I say, you would be inspired.

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Forgive me Z, but I have heard such talk before. And it has rarely been accurate.
Most of the time that's talk from someone who either has been taught not to question, just parrot what others say, or talk from someone who wants to appear 'holier than thou'.

Even if this isn't the case for you, you really need to become more humble. Crying out how righteous you are is one of the core things Jesus criticized in the pharisees, Z.

Zongerfield said:

I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you. I know that the Lord loves you, and maybe one day, you'll realize this too. And if/when you do, I would like you to recall this conversation.

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Zongerfield, have you not understood what people have said to you?

Quote by Charlie V
Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Reply by Zongerfield
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42

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Reply by sdmsanjose
With your reply above you put yourself in the same category of the apostles with your Acts 10:42 quote. Your quote brought me to a few questions for you. They are:

Did you witness the death of Jesus on the cross?
Did Jesus appear to you?
Did you eat and drink with Him after he rose from the dead?

I ask these questions because you only quoted one verse. Listed below are a few more that puts my questions into context

Acts Chapter 10
39 “And we apostles are witnesses of all he did throughout Judea and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a cross,[c] 40 but God raised him to life on the third day. Then God allowed him to appear, 41 not to the general public,[d] but to us whom God had chosen in advance to be his witnesses. We were those who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he ordered us to preach everywhere and to testify that Jesus is the one appointed by God to be the judge of all—the living and the dead. 43 He is the one all the prophets testified about, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”


Zongerfield, do you see why some people see you as putting yourself in a special spiritual category and why they feel you are condescending?

Your quoting Acts 10:24 did not address Charlie’s post about praying.

Quote of Zongerfield
I am simply extending my hand in friendship and giving him or her my blessing.

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They have informed you that they do not want your blessings and you are not making many friends with your approach.

In the case of one man, Lion Hearted Man was brave enough to tell of his disappointing experience in seeking God and you wanting to show everyone that you are a person of faith is not any help to him in fact it irritates him.

I am not saying that God will never use anyone to help another person feel His presence but let God do the leading or be quite or at least do not irate the man seeking God.

Quote of Zongerfield
Now, I responded with the Acts passage because that is more akin to what I am doing here. I am trying to testify, trying to bear witness, to the Grace and love of our lord.

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According to the responses I have read to your posts you are not having much success in bearing witness to the grace and love of God.

I do not see the scripture in Acts that you posted as applying to you. It applies to those that were apostles, those that witnessed the death of Jesus on the cross, those that Jesus appeared to, and those that eat and drank with Jesus after He rose from the dead.

Zongerfield, if that is your goal then would you consider trying another approach as the one you are using is agitating those that you are trying to help and you do not seem to be gaining many converts?

Quote of Zongerfield
I will pray for you = I am blessing you with good-will and positive thoughts

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Rather than blessing us and forgiving us, how about you tell us about your struggles with the Christian faith or something else that identifies you with us?

My brother, I am a person who believes that Christ is who He says He is and God is the one who blesses me and forgives me so I do not need that from you.

Zongerfield said:

Part of Walt's rehabilitation was to have him work with children at our church. And before you ask, these rehabilitation sessions were supervised.

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Now that's scary.

Zongerfield said:

I still think she is largely misunderstood.

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Or you are willfully ignorant about what she really believes.

Zongerfield said:

Clirus is probably not the only individual that would have had Walt executed. Maybe others here feel that way too. After all, Walt was an aggressive and enthusiastic pederast until he found our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Then you haven't read enough of Clirus' posts.

Now, one thing I know for sure, is that Clirus would not have me executed for associating with sinners or grifters or lechers or atheists or liberal wastrels or what have you, she knows that I am a good Christian, she knows that my association with those individuals is to help them find the Lord. I don't partake in their illegal activity or their perversions, I simply expose them to scripture and, believe me or not, most of the time they find the path to righteousness.

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She might advise you that the believers have no business associating with such folk -- 'for what equality hath light with dark', as she frequently reminds us.

If you came to my church and you saw what we do there, you would definitely be "affected" by our love and our tradition. Dare I say, you would be inspired.

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And that is wonderful. I do not say that sarcastically, but I genuinely mean that it is wonderful that you have taken upon yourself the enterprise of reaching out to people. Now you must understand that Clirus' ideology does not openly condone doing what you are doing. Her approach differs somewhat from yours, and as much 'common ground' as you might have with her, there are also significant points of departure. Not once, in the many years that Clirus has been on here, do I recall reading a post of hers where she expounds on the virtues of reaching out to sinners in compassion.

Zongerfield said:

Part of Walt's rehabilitation was to have him work with children at our church. And before you ask, these rehabilitation sessions were supervised.



I still think she is largely misunderstood.

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Why do you say that Zongerfield? We've debated these things with her for years now, I don't think there is any reason for doubt as to her bloody intent.

Zongerfield said:

Again, you assume to know her. But I think there is more to her than what you and others see. Just my opinion.

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There ususally is. But no matter what lies behind an atrocity, it is still atrocious

Zongerfield said:

Maybe she can respond to this to provide further clarification. Either way, I don't pose a threat.

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To her, you might. You would have communion with sinners. I.e. darkness. I.e. you are someone she might very likely rebuke. And to refer to earlier statements by Clirus she wants a three strikes and then you're executed kind of legal system. While I'm not sure she'd kill you, she might. Why? Because you'd hang out with sinners. You'd 'have communion with the dark', 'be unequally yoked', be 'soft on sin', 'embrace their atheistic lifestyles'...

I'm thinking she might very well decide to kill you for that. Oh. Pardon me. 'execute'. Apparently Clirus thinks execution isn't killing... But that it's just and good.

Lion Hearted Man said:

Now that's scary.

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Depends on the origin of the crime. We have examples here from some of our model prisons where people who killed other people using axes or chainsaws worked with the same tools they used to kill. There has been great success with that particular approach actually. Of course there are psychologists and other specialists involved prior to that particular rehabilitation technique.
While I am no expert, I think the same could be true for sex offenders. Once they reach a certain level in their rehabilitation.

That said, I think sometimes congregations can be a little naive and trusting. Often this is a good thing, but for something like this... I hope they consulted with professionals to assess his recovery and the wisdom of this action.

Or you are willfully ignorant about what she really believes.

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He might be. It's hard to accept the severity at which Clirus is defacing Christianity with her statements. It can be easier to think it's all just a big misunderstanding. After all, Clirus is constantly quoting scripture, and talking about christianity with a common christian lingo.

However, more than her can quote scripture, and here are a couple which we have not brought to bare as far as I know:

Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....

Observe the fruits Clirus wants to bear:

• Nuclear war (in the event of a war)
• Slaughter of millions (atheists (i.e. non-christians), homosexuals, people who have had sex outside marriage etc, etc ...)
• Killing of children
• Wars of total annihilation

To mention some. You know more, I'm sure.
Then compare those to the verses outlining the fruits of those who follow Christ:

• love
• joy
• peace
• patience
• kindness
• goodness
• faithfulness
• gentleness
• self-control

Do you see any correlation here?

Acts 20:29-31
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

What would you call Clirus' position if not perverse?

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Grace. Ah, yes. Something we should only offer to known christians, says Clirus. Twisting everything to fit that. Saying that even the good samaritan helped the jew only because he didn't know the victim's faith and decided he might share the Samaritan's faith. Completely missing the point of the parable by several leagues.

(any emphasis in the verses is my emphasis)

There are more verses of course. The parable of the sheep and the goats, and the parable of lazarus and the rich man both come to mind as at least tangential to this topic.

Zongerfield said:

No one has said they don't want my blessings, there is just a misunderstanding over the sub-dialect (the Christian language) I am using to express my prayers and good-will. I think most people are beginning to understand the way I communicate. Faith Guardian seems to understand where I'm coming from.

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From your signature:

I forgive you = I am not offended by your beliefs, attitudes or animosity toward me, and I extend to you my hand in friendship.

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Nobody is showing animosity towards you, they're merely rebuking you for your support of Clirus and her extremist positions. (Well, and your clear voicing of your distaste for 'atheists, homosexuals and liberal wastrels'.)

His irritation has little to do with my covenant with the Lord. He need not be jealous. And I don't believe he is. I think he mistakenly thought I was being condescending.

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Mistakenly? There are many more things than just your 'forgiveness' that are condescending in your posts, Z.

I am a conduit to the Lord. I know this. I have proof. Many members of my church can confirm this.

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Now, is this proof objective or subjective? You're not going to convince us with claims of personal experience.

Then you are misreading my posts, and my work as a soldier of the Lord.

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Perhaps it is you that is miswriting your posts, not the other way around. It seems everyone here holds a similar opinion, and you're the only one who thinks otherwise.

I have seen Jesus in my dreams. And he does speak to me. I feel his presence quite frequently. So, no, I wasn't there when he was crucified, but I know that he was, and he has appeared to me.

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Do you accept the claims of the thousands of people who claim they were abducted by aliens and experienced them first hand? What about the people who see ghosts? Do you accept all of the personal revelation/visions of members of other religions? Why not?

Unless you answer yes to all of these questions, you've just proven to yourself exactly why this kind of evidence is absolutely useless to anyone other than yourself.

... but I trust that you will respect my covenant with the Lord and my experiences with his grace and love.

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That probably depends on whether he believes you or not. Just as one would not be expected to trust the man at the mental health center who claims he's Napoleon Bonaparte based solely on the word of his personal experience.

In due time they will respect and embrace my uniqueness, I hope.

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Are we talking Clirus 'unique' or Faith Guardian unique? Because the latter would be infinitely better.

Zongerfield said:

No one has said they don't want my blessings, there is just a misunderstanding over the sub-dialect (the Christian language) I am using to express my prayers and good-will. I think most people are beginning to understand the way I communicate. Faith Guardian seems to understand where I'm coming from.

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Yes, I think I do. But I don't condone your use of that way of expression here.
Also, I wouldn't call it 'the christian language' as no such thing exists. It's merely a subcultural form of expression, no different from what you might find in any closed group of people. I think it is an unfortunate thing, as Christians are supposed to be all inclusive IMHO.

Zongerfield said:

I am a conduit to the Lord. I know this. I have proof. Many members of my church can confirm this. Not saying that I can lead everyone to the Lord, or help every wayward individual that crosses my path, but I have helped many.

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Okay. Given your earlier comment on 'liberal wastrels' I wonder - what do you consider 'wayward'?

If you take a look at where I stand politically (image below) you'll find that I'm rather far left. But I won't say that right wingers are 'wayward'. I think they are mistaken, that their policies run contrary to Christ's teachings most of the time and that this political approach is harmful and unhealthy. But they are people, and as such have an intrinsic value which is infinitely high.



Am I wayward, Zongerfield?
I want society's money to help the sick and the poor, not to buy more guns and bombs for the military. I want us to get together and help those in need. I want us to stop the war-mongery and work for cooperation fellowship and peace. Am I wayward? I want to let everyone have a good life, where their needs are met. Where they can get an education and meet their potential, regardless of their family's wealth. I want a society where we due to a mutual trust and cooperation can stop worrying about being shut out or ignored, even if you are homosexual, have had sex outside of marriage or lets take it to one extreme and say even if you're a homeless alcoholic who has killed a fellow human being. I still think all the aforementioned have an intrinsic value and needs to be seen as a fellow human being, loved and where the need is present, helped. I want everyone to be a part of a whole where no-one is left out in the cold and ignored. Am I wayward? I want our non-renewable resources to benefit our children, grandchildren and multiple generations past that. Am I wayward? I want the people who work in a given place to have a say, and a sense of belonging, of fellowship in their workplace. I do not want employees or indeed people of any sort to be traded or treated like cattle or robots performing a given mindless task. I want them to have a say. In other words: I want an expansion of democracy.

So... Looking at me, you see a far left liberal christian. I just outlined my political position above. Tell me, what about this is 'wasteful' or 'wrong'? Or did I somehow misunderstand you Z? I may have. It certainly happens

Zongerfield said:

We're still getting to know each other. In due time they will respect and embrace my uniqueness, I hope.

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If your lot falls in with Clirus you will have no respect nor embrace from me. I'm not fond of that level of what I can only consider direct blasphemy, and I'm not about to say otherwise. A Christian who supports genocide is not someone who knows Christ in my book. And no, I don't think this is about 'misunderstanding poor Clirus' on my part. I think I understand her quite well. We've had our share of nutjobs in Europe through the centuries, and Clirus reminds me of some of the worst ones. Topping quite a number of them, too.
We have mass graves even here (empty now, the victims are buried in cemetaries) after the last such nutjob (Hitler, and his local puppet: Quisling), and I don't want more of those. Neither the graves nor the nutcases.

Zongerfield said:

I won't say what I want to say out of respect, but know that I am doing it anyhow.

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Yeeaaahh.... That's pretty much the same as saying it, Z. Just let it be. Leave it, don't touch it.

clirus said:

To faith guardian

If your "Strawman Man Exaggerations" are successful, then I pity those that are deceived.

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Really Clirus?

How is what I say an exaggeration? WHat am I saying about you which you haven't said first, if with different words? How am I building up an image of something you're not? In what way am I wrong?

Do you deny having stated that in war you advocate a killing of civilians? Do you deny advocating doing "all that is necessary" to win a war?
Do you deny saying you want unruly children executed as the bible calls for such?

What about what I'm saying is not accurate Clirus? Show me specifically what I have said which is not accurate. I'll most likely be able to quote you in response.

This goes for anyone on the board actually. If I exaggerate regarding Clirus, show me where. I may have, and if so I'll alter my statement to fit. But: Show me if, when and where I have exaggerated.

However, Clirus, know that I will take (yours in particular) silence as acceptance and agreement.

clirus said:

I did not advocated killing civilians, but I did state that there were no civilians in a war zone.

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Except for the fact that in many places that become war zones there are civilians caught in the cross-fire.

I did not advocate doing anything necessary to win a war, except as a last resort.

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You've said that it is okay to do 'whatever it takes' to win in a war. I do not recall you ever adding the proviso: 'but only as a last resort'. We can resolve this matter quite easily if you can show us where you have said exactly that.

I did not advocate executing unruly children, but rather stated I agreed with the Bible that unruly children should be brought before the elders to be dealt with in accordance with the Bible.

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Allow me to jog your memory: 'When the Bible calls for the execution of disobedient children, I am compelled to comply.' That's what you said.

You've also said that you believe it is within the power of the State to prevent people that you disagree with from holding positions of leadership. In addition, you've claimed that those who habitually violate the commandments/doctrines of the Bible should possibly face execution. Since Atheists are habitual violators of commandment number one, I wonder if that makes them first on your list? Calling your positions theocratic isn't the least bit a strawman exaggeration.

clirus said:

I did not advocated killing civilians, but I did state that there were no civilians in a war zone.

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Yes, Clirus. You have advocated the killing of civilians.

clirus said:

The government of good people should go to war with nations or groups of people that are a threat to the government/society as is instructed by the Old Testament of the Bible. The purpose of the war should be to do what ever it takes to win, in the shortest possible time, which includes the elimination/killing of men, women and children associated with the threat ... The war should be concluded only when the threat has been eliminated.

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Ahyes, and of course

clirus said:

In order to soften up Iran, nuclear weapons should be used to eliminate all military targets, then America should take over all oil production in Iran then implement: 1)American take over of the oil and only reward the Sunni, Shiites, and Kurds when they behave properly. If they don't behave, they starve.

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(my emphasis)
See here? Two examples where you advocate killing (the first) and starving (i.e. killing more slowly) civilians who don't behave according to the will of the (your) übermacht.
Do you know who the first to die from starvation are, Clirus? Babies. Infants. Not the bad adult terrorists. The children. The last to starve are usually the ones who will seize weapons and fight. The last to starve are those who are strong enough - and have no compulsion to avoid - to take the food they need/want from others.

Art has shown a few other good pointers.

clirus said:

Do you disagree with the Bible also?

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I don't disagree with the bible. I think your interpretation of it is insane. Literally.

clirus said:

Much of the reason I write is because I believe Atheists take silence as acceptance and agreement.

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Ohright. Atheists. I suppose I am an "atheist" in your book Clirus? I certainly don't agree with you.

Thanks to Art vandelay for bringing bck those quotes.

See, Clirus? Not a straw man. What I was describing is actually you.