I could use some input.... (School/Kindergarten related issue)

[MessianicMommy]

Shalom, I wondered if anyone could help me on this.

My eldest is soon to start Kindergarten here in Germany, and a big thing for all the kids are the major holidays. With our village being evenly divided between Catholic and "Evangaelische" (I'm still uncertain which way ours leans), everyone will be doing the big holidays here, Karneval, Lent, Easter, Pentecost, Halloween/All Saint's Day, St Martin's, St Nicholas', St Lucia, Christmas...

Because of our different beliefs, I would like to ask if there are alternative options for us, perhaps if our children can LEARN about the holiday, but not have to do the assorted crafts, coloring pages, pinatas etc... but that we can offer something for the holidays we have - Passover, Firstfruits, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and Hanukkah, and Purim.

I certainly don't want to come off as combative, or as someone unwilling to integrate into the society (as I, myself am not German - my husband is); but that I just cannot compromise on the kids thinking this is "happy fun time" (We can play the same as the other kids at school, but have to be different at home) for them. I want a clear message sent that we do not celebrate these holidays in any way, but learning about them is OK. (in other words we aren't telling them "The Easter Bunny/Santa isn't real and go tell the other kids!" - we are telling them on no uncertain terms are we celebrating these days.)

We already have food related issues that *could* have the potential to ostracize the children from their peers (Coeliac, topical Dermatitis reactions in addition) - so any food related school/Kindergarten issues will have to be combated by us bringing alternative foods for holidays and birthdays.

My DH doesn't want to bring it up, or the fact we will need off on the sabbath days of the high holidays that happen to fall in the middle of the school week, because it might be seen that we don't want our children dedicated to school. I say he is worrying too much and needs to just see if we can have the additional school/homework for those days and they do it at home on the day they come home and we have worship at home on the days that they are out of Kindergarten/school. He says no, we might be seen as truant. I don't see how, as I have gone through several different modes of school in the USA, including homeschooling. It's a legitimate reason to be out of school, and I'm sure in the larger Jewish communities it's the same at Kindergarten/school.

Or am I just so far out there that this is totally unacceptable and instead of trying to talk about this in our upcoming interview (Friday) - that we should just say nothing and bring it up ONLY when we come up to the holidays themselves? I say that's too late, and then we'd be seen as problem parents with a problem child.

Help!

 

[yedida]

I am not qualified to answer as I don't face such a problem, mine being grown now.
You might get a broader response if you pose this question in the general MJ forum?

P.S.
Welcome to the Messianic forums!!

 

[ChavaK]

terms are we celebrating these days.)

Or am I just so far out there that this is totally unacceptable and instead of trying to talk about this in our upcoming interview (Friday) - that we should just say nothing and bring it up ONLY when we come up to the holidays themselves? I say that's too late, and then we'd be seen as problem parents with a problem child.

Help!

Personally, I would bring it up. I look at it as if I were applying for a job....how would the employer like it if they offered me a job, I accepted, and then I started listing all these limitations?
I think you will feel better too if you mention it...and it probably in the long run won't be a serious problem.
Just my opinion, though...
Nice to see you back!

 

[MessianicMommy]

Thank you. I had it out with DH and I guess he finally saw it my way by Thursday night and had something nice typed up, and let me dissect what was available in German on Messianic Judaism (only what applied to us) to give to both places we were "interviewing".

I felt more comfortable at the ""secular"" (they still do churchy stuff) Kindergarten than the church one. They had experience with issues similar to ours, and seemed to have it all in hand. BOTH kids loved it there, so I should have no trouble registering both and getting the oldest in this summer.

Now if they want, we can give them a sort of statement of faith. There was just no way we could complete that last night. The kids kept us up and were very nervous this morning and decided to get up at 5 and 6am respectively. @.@

I think all in all it went well, and we were treated very nicely and with kindness and understanding with our questions (completely unlike what DH thought it would be). Good thing, the director of the kindergarten knows my inlaws and husband, so it should go really well.

Thank you for the welcome back Chava!

 

[yedida]

Thank you. I had it out with DH and I guess he finally saw it my way by Thursday night and had something nice typed up, and let me dissect what was available in German on Messianic Judaism (only what applied to us) to give to both places we were "interviewing".

I felt more comfortable at the ""secular"" (they still do churchy stuff) Kindergarten than the church one. They had experience with issues similar to ours, and seemed to have it all in hand. BOTH kids loved it there, so I should have no trouble registering both and getting the oldest in this summer.

Now if they want, we can give them a sort of statement of faith. There was just no way we could complete that last night. The kids kept us up and were very nervous this morning and decided to get up at 5 and 6am respectively. @.@

I think all in all it went well, and we were treated very nicely and with kindness and understanding with our questions (completely unlike what DH thought it would be). Good thing, the director of the kindergarten knows my inlaws and husband, so it should go really well.

Thank you for the welcome back Chava!

Off topic but a light bulb just went off!! I couldn't figure out the w/b because of your join date - but I just noticed your "formerly" I remember reading postings by that name!!
On topic, glad things went better than expected.

 

[ChavaK]

I think all in all it went well, and we were treated very nicely and with kindness and understanding with our questions (completely unlike what DH thought it would be).

Glad to hear it went well! Sounds like a very good place for your kids.

 

[Tea]

MM I'm glad everything worked out well for you. This subject though is something that you will probably find that you need to re-address every so often, especially end of year when new teachers are being assigned. We found that even though something may be a "school policy" how it was played out in the classroom was a different matter. Some teacher were good, others made life upcomfortable for the kids. We also had "health" issues that initially were address well, but as the years wore on and no "health issues" were experienced at school, things became a little more difficult as it was seen that I was over exagerating the seriousness of things, so again they got laxed.
I would keep homeschooling as an alternative option. We eventually brought the children home after a number of school "issues" 6 years ago, and even though it has it's own challenges, we don't regret it at all.
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[MessianicMommy]

I wish homeschooling were an option, but it's been illegal since the 1930s. I am not about to undertake something against the law, as I have affirmed since moving here almost 4 years ago.

While sitting down with the little packet we were given of information on the website, I have started coming up with more things we need to address for our little one. Since we're meeting soon, I will start working over our concerns and we can ask them then and there, as well as having a copy that they keep, and something maybe that we can put together with the director and sign off on.

From what I understand, our son(s) will be assigned the teacher who knows my DH (apparently he was in her class so long ago) and she has dealt extensively with severe food allergy/issues, so this should be an easy work once we've talked with the director. Celiac Disease is taken very seriously here, unlike in the USA where you have to go through bunches and bunches of red tape for diagnosis, and then bunches and bunches more to get a 504 plan to take to school, plus all the paperwork, documentation and making people adhere to it. It's just craziness!

I'll update again once we've talked things over, but so far it seems to be ok. They keep the same set of teachers, so it's the young people that are working there (18-20somethings) and the school age kids we have to keep an eye/ear out for. They'll have to be on the same page.

 

[MessianicMommy]

UPDATE!!


We had another meeting with the kindergarten yesterday that took a couple hours. They will not be supplying meals to our children (YAY, big step) because they cannot confirm at all times that the food is either kosher or gluten free. So, we are allowed to bring food from home, but we need to make sure that it mimics what is being given in kindergarten in some fashion. We'll get a copy of their meal plan soon, and I can start making and freezing things away.

Birthdays aren't much trouble, we need to just send in safe "candy" (it's like gummibears and gummiworms, but made from fruit and veggies - no gelatin), cookies and cupcakes. No problemo, dessert is my forte. Not to mention I like making things like carrot cake and hiding in real veggies and fruits so it's healthy. I can send him in with place mats that have his name on them, and we can keep him safe at mealtime that way.

We discussed our other issues, and we can either stay out on days they make cookies in class, or supply safe cookie mix and dough so everyone can participate. I told them that is easy, I LOVE baking, and cookies are an easy recipe for me to substitute for those with allergies (some with egg, some with nut, some with soy issues). Any time they go to a bakery, we'll just let ours stay home that day and have their own field trip with us as parents, since bakeries are a very dangerous place for us.

We'll investigate ingredients on things like their moulding clay, finger paints and glue to make sure there's no issues there...

When it comes to the holidays, we can bring in something to explain Passover and Chanukkah, and also Shavuot. We live in a rather religious area, and though the school is secular, they are closed for all state holidays, which include Easter and Pentecost Mondays. So obviously the children will learn about these holidays, but more in the "spring aspect" as the director and teachers said - the bunnies, animals waking up from winter sleep, chickens and ducks and baby animals etc. Christmas however, they do have a party, gift giving and St Nickolaus comes visiting Dec 6. So we have to figure out what we will do in that regard, but we're able to bring something in about Hanukkah and explain aspects of that holiday. We hadn't been doing gifts before as a family, but I guess at this juncture we may start doing so.

We'll do a few trial runs on days I feel well enough to bike over with the kids in tow, and then have a followup meeting on any issues we noticed after that time.

They are quite respectful of our beliefs, and I think very interested in learning more and working with us, praise G-d!

 

[Lulav]

Sounds like it's going well, I am happy for you HS, I didn't realize the children has the dermatological version as well. Thank G-d I don't have to worry about that!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

UPDATE!!


We had another meeting with the kindergarten yesterday that took a couple hours. They will not be supplying meals to our children (YAY, big step) because they cannot confirm at all times that the food is either kosher or gluten free. So, we are allowed to bring food from home, but we need to make sure that it mimics what is being given in kindergarten in some fashion. We'll get a copy of their meal plan soon, and I can start making and freezing things away.

Birthdays aren't much trouble, we need to just send in safe "candy" (it's like gummibears and gummiworms, but made from fruit and veggies - no gelatin), cookies and cupcakes. No problemo, dessert is my forte. Not to mention I like making things like carrot cake and hiding in real veggies and fruits so it's healthy. I can send him in with place mats that have his name on them, and we can keep him safe at mealtime that way.

We discussed our other issues, and we can either stay out on days they make cookies in class, or supply safe cookie mix and dough so everyone can participate. I told them that is easy, I LOVE baking, and cookies are an easy recipe for me to substitute for those with allergies (some with egg, some with nut, some with soy issues). Any time they go to a bakery, we'll just let ours stay home that day and have their own field trip with us as parents, since bakeries are a very dangerous place for us.

We'll investigate ingredients on things like their moulding clay, finger paints and glue to make sure there's no issues there...

When it comes to the holidays, we can bring in something to explain Passover and Chanukkah, and also Shavuot. We live in a rather religious area, and though the school is secular, they are closed for all state holidays, which include Easter and Pentecost Mondays. So obviously the children will learn about these holidays, but more in the "spring aspect" as the director and teachers said - the bunnies, animals waking up from winter sleep, chickens and ducks and baby animals etc. Christmas however, they do have a party, gift giving and St Nickolaus comes visiting Dec 6. So we have to figure out what we will do in that regard, but we're able to bring something in about Hanukkah and explain aspects of that holiday. We hadn't been doing gifts before as a family, but I guess at this juncture we may start doing so.

We'll do a few trial runs on days I feel well enough to bike over with the kids in tow, and then have a followup meeting on any issues we noticed after that time.

They are quite respectful of our beliefs, and I think very interested in learning more and working with us, praise G-d!

Cool to hear of all that is going down. Honestly, with the issue of St. Nicolas, it never seemed to be something that had to go counter to Jewish culture if understanding how the character was turned into something he was never meant to represent when it came to commercializaion of gifts/service....and thus, many Jewish believers (as well as Gentiles) found ways to take the holiday/celebrate it in their own way so as to be in harmony with the scriptures. Many do that with secular holidays and turn them into educational events for their children/family--no different than believers celebrating the 4th of July and using it to illustrate what it means to be free from sin.

If you're able to have the kids bring in things about Channakuh, bring it The Messianic Jewish rabbi I work with sends his kids to charter school and has had to tell his sons about how one can interact with other peers and lovingly alert them to why they don't do certain holidays as others do.....and at the same time, not go on Jihad against the other students for not celebrating Biblical Holidays


I've seen others trip about celebrating Birthdays and saying that its man-focused/unbiblical due to how only Pharoah and Herod the Great were noted to have birthdays....but its often trivial in what others try to oppose.

 

[MessianicMommy]

G, for me and my house, celebrating those other holidays is selling out.

Our families (mine and DH's) converted to flee persecution, and those holidays were forced on us. We have a real problem with the pagan backgrounds of certain holidays here, and how those practices are clearly seen if you have a background in studies about pagan beliefs. Things that are candy-coated in the USA, are not candy-coated here. If you know what you're looking for, you plainly see the Druidic and Germanic pagan beliefs filtering through the holiday and it's rather blatant.

Not to mention, there is a delineation between "Jüden", "Messianische Jüden" and "Heiden Christen" - Jews, Messianic Jews or Gentile/Pagan Christians. If you do a history study between these groups within Germany for the last 2,000 years, you'll know what we do; it's not an issue of compatibility, but of fine lines, and the inability to really bridge a gap. The Christians want to know what we do, and it's "laudable", but we're not really included or allowed to be included in their group activities or congregations because we are different, our practice is different, our faith is different, and until we convert to their beliefs, we're outsiders. It's always been that way, and it was exacerbated around the time of Luther. For a Jewish believer in Messiah here in Germany, one either stayed in the community and said no much about it, or they converted to Christianity, and were in "no man's land" for three generations. They were not allowed to be buried with the Jews or the Christians, and were not allowed to participate fully in the church either. Most people haven't learned that history. That's OK. We can let them know and be reminded. This is not just "something from that evil time between 1933-1949".


I have no problems with Nikolaus the person. I have major problems with the holiday.
I have no problems with St Martin either. I have problems with his holiday.
I have no problems with the idea of the "three kings" bringing homage to the child; I have major problems with the holiday.

I have no problems with the ideas of dressing up in costumes and having a good time. I have major problems with how that plays out and what the holiday is truly about.
I have no problems with bread shaped like people, I do however have major problems of that taking place during pagan harvest festivals to represent (even if it is now forgotten) the human sacrifices that were made on those dates.
I have no problem with pine and fir or myrtle trees. I do have problems with what they represent and why they are involved on these pagan holidays.


This is why I struggle even doing gifts with Hanukkah or dressing up on Purim. Those are relatively "new" (200yrs or so) practices that started in the Franco-German territories, where I live now, because Karneval and Christmas take place right together, before or on the heels of our holy days and the children who were secularized felt left out or marginalized.

There is an expectation that we will allow our children to take part in the gift exchange for St Nickolaus, because the Muslim children are allowed. This being said, we are the only Messianic Jews in the village. They don't know what to expect with us. They believe because we share certain beliefs, we can "give" on this thing.
However, participation with the holiday is not happening. We have a very fine line to tread, with respect and learning about the holidays and not condemning those who do participate, and yet not participating ourselves. If that means on that day we have some kind of other obligation or doctor appointment at the time we'd normally be in kindergarten, so be it.

The children will be clearly explained to as to what our beliefs are, what their beliefs are, and where our fine line exists and why. If I hear they are teasing the other children or being mean to them about it - they WILL be disciplined at home for it. If I hear that they tell children that it's their parents pretending to be the bunny or the fat man dressed in red - they will be in trouble. That is just disrespectful of the other children and their parents, not things we are teaching at home.


The children as of yet do not know other people do things differently than we do, as I've been housebound for the bulk of 2 years. They've spent all their time with us or my in laws, who respect our beliefs even if they do not fully understand them. Age 3 is a hard year to explain that we do things differently and they can't have or do certain things other people do, because of our beliefs, or our food issues (two-fold; Kosher and Celiac).

We will constantly have thrown in our faces that certain Muslims in the community can bend and do certain things, why can't we?? Our faith is different. Vastly different. We will also have it thrown in our face that we said we have agreements with certain tenents of the Evangelical faith, but that there are differences. And the fact of the matter is, we agree on BASICS. However, there is such a vast chasm between those basics and the other things we believe and practice.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

G, for me and my house, celebrating those other holidays is selling out.

Our families (mine and DH's) converted to flee persecution, and those holidays were forced on us. We have a real problem with the pagan backgrounds of certain holidays here, and how those practices are clearly seen if you have a background in studies about pagan beliefs. Things that are candy-coated in the USA, are not candy-coated here. If you know what you're looking for, you plainly see the Druidic and Germanic pagan beliefs filtering through the holiday and it's rather blatant.

Not to mention, there is a delineation between "Jüden", "Messianische Jüden" and "Heiden Christen" - Jews, Messianic Jews or Gentile/Pagan Christians. If you do a history study between these groups within Germany for the last 2,000 years, you'll know what we do; it's not an issue of compatibility, but of fine lines, and the inability to really bridge a gap. The Christians want to know what we do, and it's "laudable", but we're not really included or allowed to be included in their group activities or congregations because we are different, our practice is different, our faith is different, and until we convert to their beliefs, we're outsiders. It's always been that way, and it was exacerbated around the time of Luther. For a Jewish believer in Messiah here in Germany, one either stayed in the community and said no much about it, or they converted to Christianity, and were in "no man's land" for three generations. They were not allowed to be buried with the Jews or the Christians, and were not allowed to participate fully in the church either. Most people haven't learned that history. That's OK. We can let them know and be reminded. This is not just "something from that evil time between 1933-1949".


I have no problems with Nikolaus the person. I have major problems with the holiday.

I have no problems with St Martin either. I have problems with his holiday.
I have no problems with the idea of the "three kings" bringing homage to the child; I have major problems with the holiday.

I have no problems with the ideas of dressing up in costumes and having a good time. I have major problems with how that plays out and what the holiday is truly about.

I have no problems with bread shaped like people, I do however have major problems of that taking place during pagan harvest festivals to represent (even if it is now forgotten) the human sacrifices that were made on those dates.
I have no problem with pine and fir or myrtle trees. I do have problems with what they represent and why they are involved on these pagan holidays.


This is why I struggle even doing gifts with Hanukkah or dressing up on Purim. Those are relatively "new" (200yrs or so) practices that started in the Franco-German territories, where I live now, because Karneval and Christmas take place right together, before or on the heels of our holy days and the children who were secularized felt left out or marginalized.

There is an expectation that we will allow our children to take part in the gift exchange for St Nickolaus, because the Muslim children are allowed. This being said, we are the only Messianic Jews in the village. They don't know what to expect with us. They believe because we share certain beliefs, we can "give" on this thing.

However, participation with the holiday is not happening. We have a very fine line to tread, with respect and learning about the holidays and not condemning those who do participate, and yet not participating ourselves. If that means on that day we have some kind of other obligation or doctor appointment at the time we'd normally be in kindergarten, so be it.

The children will be clearly explained to as to what our beliefs are, what their beliefs are, and where our fine line exists and why. If I hear they are teasing the other children or being mean to them about it - they WILL be disciplined at home for it. If I hear that they tell children that it's their parents pretending to be the bunny or the fat man dressed in red - they will be in trouble. That is just disrespectful of the other children and their parents, not things we are teaching at home.


The children as of yet do not know other people do things differently than we do, as I've been housebound for the bulk of 2 years. They've spent all their time with us or my in laws, who respect our beliefs even if they do not fully understand them. Age 3 is a hard year to explain that we do things differently and they can't have or do certain things other people do, because of our beliefs, or our food issues (two-fold; Kosher and Celiac).

We will constantly have thrown in our faces that certain Muslims in the community can bend and do certain things, why can't we?? Our faith is different. Vastly different. We will also have it thrown in our face that we said we have agreements with certain tenents of the Evangelical faith, but that there are differences. And the fact of the matter is, we agree on BASICS. However, there is such a vast chasm between those basics and the other things we believe and practice.

More than respect where you're coming from, sis