I can't even recognize the Christianity I see

FireDragon76

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I really cannot recognize a lot of the Christianity I see on the internet and say "They practice the same faith I do". I really can't anymore.

I honestly feel more kinship with merely spiritual people or the average not particularly religious person, than I do with the average "born-again Christian". Let's be honest, they wouldn't accept me as a Christian anyways.

It's almost like religion is making people worse, how could Jesus be happy with any of this?

Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, by joining a church. I wake up nervous and I feel fake sometimes, like a bad dream I'll wake up from.

I sometimes pine away for just being like what the Dalai Lama says, "My religion is compassion". That would be so much more beautiful than the ugly tribalism I see. And I'm losing my sense of inner peace.

Maybe I need to get beyond the theoretical stage, and start living out what I say I believe. Perhaps I am too nice, and I just need to avoid interacting with certain people for my own sanity.
 

2PhiloVoid

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I really cannot recognize a lot of the Christianity I see on the internet and say "They practice the same faith I do". I really can't anymore.

I honestly feel more kinship with merely spiritual people or the average not particularly religious person, than I do with the average "born-again Christian". Let's be honest, they wouldn't accept me as a Christian anyways.

It's almost like religion is making people worse, how could Jesus be happy with any of this?

Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, by joining a church. I wake up nervous and I feel fake sometimes, like a bad dream I'll wake up from.

I sometimes pine away for just being like what the Dalai Lama says, "My religion is compassion". That would be so much more beautiful than the ugly tribalism I see. And I'm losing my sense of inner peace.

Maybe I need to get beyond the theoretical stage, and start living out what I say I believe. Perhaps I am too nice, and I just need to avoid interacting with certain people for my own sanity.

Sometimes, avoiding certain 'hotheaded' type Christians can help. Try not to let it get to you, though. A lot of it is just people being people, no matter what background, denomination, sect, party, or mental orientation they come from. It's ok to be a little different from them FireDragon76. I know I am. So, when I bump heads with other Christians (or they bump heads with me), I just try to mix up a fresh batch of ecumenical lemonade, kick back on the lounger, and call it a day! :hrelax:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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JackRT

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I really cannot recognize a lot of the Christianity I see on the internet and say "They practice the same faith I do". I really can't anymore.

I honestly feel more kinship with merely spiritual people or the average not particularly religious person, than I do with the average "born-again Christian". Let's be honest, they wouldn't accept me as a Christian anyways.

It's almost like religion is making people worse, how could Jesus be happy with any of this?

Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, by joining a church. I wake up nervous and I feel fake sometimes, like a bad dream I'll wake up from.

I sometimes pine away for just being like what the Dalai Lama says, "My religion is compassion". That would be so much more beautiful than the ugly tribalism I see. And I'm losing my sense of inner peace.

Maybe I need to get beyond the theoretical stage, and start living out what I say I believe. Perhaps I am too nice, and I just need to avoid interacting with certain people for my own sanity.

Ditto. You mentioned the Dalai Lama, whom I greatly admire. I have said it before and have been derided for it --- the most Christlike person I have ever personally met was a Hindu. Compassion was his religion too.
 
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FireDragon76

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A lot of it is just people being people, no matter what background, denomination, sect, party, or mental orientation they come from.

I wish I could believe that.

The people at my church are great. People don't talk about who is right and wrong alot, or outrage at the latest happenings in the world as the sign of the Beast, they just shake hands, greet each other, hug. Chat a little about nonreligious topics, or occasionally, about the next Bible study. We have all types of people.. lots of white people, central european people, latino people... even a few gay people.

Here... it can be crazy. People expect absolute political and social conformity, but actually seem to tolerate the most bizarre, heretical potpourri of ideas imaginable. I think its a wierd kind of American pietism, where the only thing that matters is piety and morality. The church I go to is largely non-political, almost as a matter of the faith, and not very pietistic or moralistic.
 
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Winken

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I wish I could believe that.

The people at my church are great. People don't talk about who is right and wrong alot, or outrage at the latest happenings in the world as the sign of the Beast, they just shake hands, greet each other, hug. Chat a little about nonreligious topics, or occasionally, about the next Bible study. We have all types of people.. lots of white people, central european people, latino people... even a few gay people.

Here... it can be crazy. People expect absolute political and social conformity, but actually seem to tolerate the most bizarre, heretical potpourri of ideas imaginable. I think its a wierd kind of American pietism, where the only thing that matters is piety and morality. The church I go to is largely non-political, almost as a matter of the faith, and not very pietistic or moralistic.
First and foremost, as one who has accepted Jesus as Savior, dwell in reverence and awe.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi FD, perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but church is a place that we go to step back out of the world and remember who we are, and just Who it is that we belong to. It's meant to be a place to grow in Christ and, hopefully, to help others do the same, and then to take what we have learned of God and His love to a very needy world.

We are also meant to give ourselves to/function as part of the body of Christ, which is both necessary for us and necessary for the "body" as well .. see 1 Corinthians 12 (and for those to whom we will minister outside of the church).

Of course, I don't know your particular situation, but my present (and past) churches, have all been filled with godly men and women who I have had the pleasure to know, to work alongside, and for the most part, to call my friends (many of whom I have, in fact, chosen to emulate because of their godly qualities and the way they've chosen to live before Him).

There will always be those who are more mature in the faith, and those who are less mature, so there will be some who can help/minister to us in our walk with Him, and others who we can help/minister to.

And there will always be "problems" as well. It's certainly not always a perfect place or situation, because a church is made up of people ;)

As for your choice to get beyond the "theoretical" stage of your Christianity, I think that would be a great idea (and what better place to do so than the church). And if the place that you've chosen to worship in has few to emulate/little going on, then you will need to be the one to show/help your fellows at church find their way/understand how to grow as Christians and to function as the local body of believers the Lord intended.

One book that might help you with this is Dr. J I Packer's, Knowing God. I know of no book, save perhaps the Bible, that comes more highly and consistently recommended than Knowing God does, by so many leaders within Christendom for so many years. Here is an excerpt form the preface that, in part, describes who the book was written to/for (see particularly paragraphs 2-4 below in particular concerning "balconeers" and "travelers").

Preface (1973)

As clowns yearn to play Hamlet, so I have wanted to write a treatise on God. This book, however, is not it. Its length might suggest that it is trying to be, but anyone who takes it that way will be disappointed. It is at best a string of beads: a series of small studies of great subjects, most of which first appeared in the Evangelical Magazine. They were conceived as separate messages but are now presented together because they seem to coalesce into a single message about God and our living. It is their practical purpose that explains both the selection and omission of topics and the manner of treatment.

In A Preface to Christian Theology, John Mackay illustrated two kinds of interest in Christian things by picturing persons sitting on the high front balcony of a Spanish house watching travelers go by on the road below. The “balconeers” can overhear the travelers’ talk and chat with them; they may comment critically on the way that the travelers walk; or they may discuss questions about the road, how it can exist at all or lead anywhere, what might be seen from different points along it, and so forth; but they are onlookers, and their problems are theoretical only. The travelers, by contrast, face problems which, though they have their theoretical angle, are essentially practical—problems of the “which–way–to–go” and “how–to–make–it” type, problems which call not merely for comprehension but for decision and action too.

Balconeers and travelers may think over the same area, yet their problems differ. Thus (for instance) in relation to evil, the balconeer’s problem is to find a theoretical explanation of how evil can consist with God’s sovereignty and goodness, but the traveler’s problem is how to master evil and bring good out of it. Or again, in relation to sin, the balconeer asks whether racial sinfulness and personal perversity are really credible, while the traveler, knowing sin from within, asks what hope there is of deliverance. Or take the problem of the Godhead; while the balconeer is asking how one God can conceivably be three, what sort of unity three could have, and how three who make one can be persons, the traveler wants to know how to show proper honor, love and trust toward the three Persons who are now together at work to bring him out of sin to glory. And so we might go on.

Now this is a book for travelers, and it is with travelers’ questions that it deals.

The conviction behind the book is that ignorance of God—ignorance both of his ways and of the practice of communion with him—lies at the root of much of the church’s weakness today. Two unhappy trends seem to have produced this state of affairs...... (I'll let you read the rest of it if you decide to read the book ;)).

J. I. P.
Trinity College, Bristol
July 1972​

I'm not sure this book or what I've tried to say will be useful to you, but I thought it might be considering some of the things you were saying. Again, I hope I am not too far off in my understanding of your complaints and longings for something better. If I am, I apologize.

Yours in Christ,
David
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Christianity unfortunately covers a wide range of beliefs so what you see from your church is just one small taste of it. Here on the internet you see the whole scope of viewpoints and each has its place. If it stresses you out hearing other viewpoints then its understandable to want to take a break from the internet. I know it can get hostile here but when someone disagrees with me in a hostile tone I just ignore them instead of getting into a long debate over something that wont change our beliefs.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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Honestly I say take a break from Religion. Even from attending Church. And from CF.
You could try a Buddhist Meditation retreat though? (oops not good Christian advice I know)
You might come back refreshed and refocussed.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hi FD, perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but church is a place that we go to step back out of the world and remember who we are, and just Who it is that we belong to. It's meant to be a place to grow in Christ and, hopefully, to help others do the same, and then to take what we have learned of God and His love to a very needy world.

My church on some sundays is like a little bit of heaven. Even on days its not, it's not offensive.

As for your choice to get beyond the "theoretical" stage of your Christianity, I think that would be a great idea (and what better place to do so than the church).

I don't talk a lot about my spiritual experiences but I've not always been so "theoretical". Just relatively new to the Lutheran way of doing things, and feeling a bit out of sorts spiritually. My pastor says I am a good and mature Christian, and for a while, I struggled to believe him. I don't pray nearly as much as I used to, nor do I do a lot of the things that used to be meaningful to me spiritually. Lutheranism has "flattened" me spiritually. In some ways its a relief, other ways its boring. I don't have a sense of vocation, I guess. I never did as a Christian in the past, I just focused on loving people, but Lutherans focus on more concrete stuff.

I guess part of the issue settling into my new spiritual home, my old home had such a grip on me. And it ended in a breakup, one that I did not want. I have love for the people at church, I know our doctrines, I've read a good some Lutheran theology, but I don't know how to be Lutheran.
 
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Solomons Porch

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My church on some sundays is like a little bit of heaven. Even on days its not, it's not offensive.



I don't talk a lot about my spiritual experiences but I've not always been so "theoretical". Just relatively new to the Lutheran way of doing things, and feeling a bit out of sorts spiritually. My pastor says I am a good and mature Christian, and for a while, I struggled to believe him. I don't pray nearly as much as I used to, nor do I do a lot of the things that used to be meaningful to me spiritually. Lutheranism has "flattened" me spiritually. In some ways its a relief, other ways its boring. I don't have a sense of vocation, I guess. I never did as a Christian in the past, I just focused on loving people, but Lutherans focus on more concrete stuff.

I guess part of the issue settling into my new spiritual home, my old home had such a grip on me. And it ended in a breakup, one that I did not want. I have love for the people at church, I know our doctrines, I've read a good some Lutheran theology, but I don't know how to be Lutheran.
Sounds like you are headed down the road to a beautiful "relationship" with Jesus.....Sounds like the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and drawing you closer to Him. That is what I hear, that still small voice yearning for you to commune with The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.....carry on this journey and you will find the joy of the Lord and sweet sweet communion :amen:
 
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FireDragon76

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I guess the juridical focus of Lutheranism is part of the flattening. On the one hand, it gives it a sharper ethical focus and makes it down-to-earth... on the other hand, it feels like God is distant and no longer someone I individually relate to, except through the Church. I've tried reading the Bible but sometimes it's like "I'm not sure how to read this".

Maybe I need to do some devotional reading within the Lutheran tradition, if such a thing exists. Last summer I read Nadia Bolz Weber's Pastrix and that was interesting, even profound in places, but from what I remember of it, it was so "flat", often about the Christian life as a series of encounters with personal inadequacy- growth is by realizing how flawed you are, i guess. The church preaching is a lot like that too. I wonder sometimes if this is psychologically healthy, sometimes it seems masochistic.

I go to a therapist who is an Episcopalian twice a month. A lot of what she says is perpendicular or even contrary to the spirituality I see in evangelical churches that focus on the message of guilt, grace, and forgiveness. She talks about the need for me to find a sense of autonomy, self-worth, and to understand when to put up healthy boundaries. She says my problem is that my sense of compassion has left me vulnerable, and I have no personal way to ritualize or process the trauma that has happened to me. Yet, I don't doubt her wisdom, even if it is different from Lutheran preaching. So it makes me wonder, am I on the right track spiritually/religiously?
 
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FireDragon76

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Honestly, the younger pastor we had from California as a guest a few weeks ago was such a change of pace. He talked about the importance of prayer and spending time with God, the joy we should feel going to church, etc. He talked about Jesus resurrection alot too, and not alot about sin. So different from the kinds of preaching we get down here in the South. I didn't completely jive with it, but I guess I've just settled into the way my pastor preaches, which makes me more like "huh? what's this about?". I think folks in the pews just tolerated him.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wish I could believe that.

The people at my church are great. People don't talk about who is right and wrong alot, or outrage at the latest happenings in the world as the sign of the Beast, they just shake hands, greet each other, hug. Chat a little about nonreligious topics, or occasionally, about the next Bible study. We have all types of people.. lots of white people, central european people, latino people... even a few gay people.

Here... it can be crazy. People expect absolute political and social conformity, but actually seem to tolerate the most bizarre, heretical potpourri of ideas imaginable. I think its a wierd kind of American pietism, where the only thing that matters is piety and morality. The church I go to is largely non-political, almost as a matter of the faith, and not very pietistic or moralistic.

I'm glad you have a group of amiable and well-meaning people at your church, FireDragon76. That is a blessing in and of itself. However, what we have at CF is an open forum that brings together, and enables the clashing, of a much fuller spread of the "faith ideas" that are actually out there in the world (or at least in the English speaking world in general).

Like I alluded to earlier, I try to keep a more ecumenically minded approach at the forefront of my interactions with fellow believers, and I try to allow for a fairly wide spread of interpretations and emphasis on various aspects of the Bible and of our individual conceptions of faith. Of course there are boundaries we shouldn't cross, but all in all, I think I can hang with most fellow believers, as long as they have at least a moderately good attitude. As you and I both know, that isn't always an easy goal to achieve around here. But then again, I think we also have to allow for the fact that people are people, and sometimes, those attitudes aren't so much the expression of different opinions as they are, perhaps, signs of emotional or mental challenges.

Sometimes, the grace and mercy we give to others will have to be given in all kinds of shapes and sizes ... :cool: ...especially here at CF.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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but all in all, I think I can hang with most fellow believers, as long as they have at least a moderately good attitude.
as long as they can laugh at themselves or simply put, a sense of humour! :)
 
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hedrick

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I wish I could believe that.

The people at my church are great. People don't talk about who is right and wrong alot, or outrage at the latest happenings in the world as the sign of the Beast, they just shake hands, greet each other, hug. Chat a little about nonreligious topics, or occasionally, about the next Bible study. We have all types of people.. lots of white people, central european people, latino people... even a few gay people.

Here... it can be crazy. People expect absolute political and social conformity, but actually seem to tolerate the most bizarre, heretical potpourri of ideas imaginable. I think its a wierd kind of American pietism, where the only thing that matters is piety and morality. The church I go to is largely non-political, almost as a matter of the faith, and not very pietistic or moralistic.
Please don't be overly upset by what you see at CF. I've participated in a variety of mainline churches my whole life, and have had some experience with more conservative flavors. It was nothing like what you see here.
 
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FireDragon76

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I just want to say thanks for the wise words.

I've been going through a bit of a spiritual funk in some ways. I think my conversion to Lutheranism has not come without a cost. It's been a bit of an acid spiritually. It has refined what I have believed and given me confidence and a sense of acceptance, but honestly Lutheranism is weak on praxis, especially if you are a round peg asked to fit into a square hole. It has even eroded my prayer life.

It has been suggested to me that perhaps I need to think about ways I can continue familiar rituals and habits that were meaningful to me, even if my religious education/formation I underwent to become Lutheran didn't seem to stress the practical application.

I miss things like Ash Wednesday and Holy Week, and I'm not sure that my current Lutheran parish observes those holidays... I tend to doubt it. Which is a bit frustrating as I assumed many Lutherans do observe them. Our parish is modest and middling, and the people there not very energetic. I think I'll ask my pastor about what they usually do for this upcoming season.

If not, I may consider visiting an Episcopalian or Catholic church during Lent. I just don't like the feeling of spiritual barrenness. I have become a Lutheran, now I need to learn how to be a Christian again.
 
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I'm a Christian first and Lutheran second. I feel closest to Lutheranism theologically for the most part but it is lacking in some areas. Same with our pastors. They do a good job but there are other pastors at other churches I draw from also. One is actually Orthodox. So I don't put myself in a box, I live out my personal spirituality on my terms. Heck there are a lot of great people at my church but its not the only place I draw Christian fellowship from. So what I guess I'm saying is its good to have roots in a specific local congregation and have a relationship with a good pastor who really knows you but just don't limit yourself to that. Hope that helps :)
 
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