I believe

[FineLinen]

"But it is said, that, as men can shake off the heritage of ADAM, so they may the grace of Christ: I reply

(I.) so they may, if the grace of Christ be only as strong as the sin of ADAM, which S. PAUL clearly denies, e.g., Rom. v. 15-21, &c.

(II.) Before men can shake off a heritage they must have received it. Hence, unless Christ REPLACES THE RACE IN PARADISE, He has not undone the evil of the Fall (a fact which is steadily denied, or ignored, by the traditional creed), and so is not the second ADAM.

(III.) It is an illogical process to say that because a partial failure took place (foreseen, and permitted for wise ends), therefore a new dispensation expressly designed to remedy that failure will itself fail.

(IV.) In the highest and truest sense God never fails, never can fail."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six

Dear Saint: Your reading of Christ Triumphant has yielded magnificent posts. I may have to pull my old tatered copy out again LOL.

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Archegos & Prodromos, has a stacked deck. He not only undoes the fall of Adam, He does it with flair!

In Hebr. 9.14 His blood is posus mallon. In Rom. 11.24 the wild & natural olive branches are in the same posus mallon dimension.

Yes, and this majestic Prince-Leader of Reconciliation not only undoes the despair of Adam, He does it posus mallon!

Mallon =

More.

To a greater degree by far.

Jesus Christ IS the Mallon Saviour of the all

 

[Saint Steven]

"Quite as striking, perhaps even more significant, are S. PETER'S words, as he tells the story of the preaching of Christ to the spirits in prison. The spirits are specially described as those of the disobedient dead. And mark what follows: "For this cause," he adds, "was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit," i.e., in order that even those who had died in sin might have the benefit of judgment, and so live to God.

Here we have
(I.) judgment bringing to the sinner not condemnation, but life
(II.) salvation by judgment extended beyond this life
(III.) extended to those who neglected, while living, the greatest light then available; and died impenitent.

All this involves a precise contradiction to the common view of the future of the impenitent dead. The thoughtful reader will note further that the "times of restitution of all things" come when Jesus returns, Acts iii. 21, but He returns to judge the quick and the dead. Let us finally quote, "I saw another angel, having the everlasting gospel to proclaim * * and he said, fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment is come." - Rev. xiv. 6-7. Note the everlasting gospel proclaimed - how? By God's judgments."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- bold emphasis mine

 

[FineLinen]

"Quite as striking, perhaps even more significant, are S. PETER'S words, as he tells the story of the preaching of Christ to the spirits in prison. The spirits are specially described as those of the disobedient dead. And mark what follows: "For this cause," he adds, "was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit," i.e., in order that even those who had died in sin might have the benefit of judgment, and so live to God.

Here we have
(I.) judgment bringing to the sinner not condemnation, but life
(II.) salvation by judgment extended beyond this life
(III.) extended to those who neglected, while living, the greatest light then available; and died impenitent.

All this involves a precise contradiction to the common view of the future of the impenitent dead. The thoughtful reader will note further that the "times of restitution of all things" come when Jesus returns, Acts iii. 21, but He returns to judge the quick and the dead. Let us finally quote, "I saw another angel, having the everlasting gospel to proclaim * * and he said, fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment is come." - Rev. xiv. 6-7. Note the everlasting gospel proclaimed - how? By God's judgments."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- bold emphasis mine

Dear Steve: The descent of the Master of at-one-ment at His resurrection out of death is a demonstration of the scope of His victory. The entire world wiped out by the great flood (minus 8), all of the disobedient rascals of mankind imprisoned in disobedience, brought to Zao life in the resurrected Christ. How far reaching is our Master's touch?

Far as the curse is found!

 

[FineLinen]

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. The net result of his preaching = zero.

The risen Christ preaching to the dead = 100% success!

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Zoe is rooted in zaō.

Zoe =

Zoe - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Zao =

Live/breathe with real life.

IOW

True life.

Active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

Living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul.

To be in full vigour

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear Steve: The descent of the Master of at-one-ment at His resurrection out of death is a demonstration of the scope of His victory. The entire world wiped out by the great flood (minus 8), all of the disobedient rascals of mankind imprisoned in disobedience, brought to Zao life in the resurrected Christ. How far reaching is our Master's touch?

Far as the curse is found!

He descended to the realm of the dead to take captivity captive in order that he might fill the whole universe. (no room for a forever hell in that declaration - otherwise the universe would NOT be filled, nor fulfilled)

Ephesians 4:7-10
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

 

[Saint Steven]

He descended to the realm of the dead to take captivity captive in order that he might fill the whole universe. (no room for a forever hell in that declaration - otherwise the universe would NOT be filled, nor fulfilled)

Ephesians 4:7-10
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

This is a curious thing that I have noticed but have not taken the time to study out.
The use/misuse of OT quotes in the NT.

How could one build the idea in Ephesians chapter four above based on the words of Psalms chapter 68? (quoted below) It seems to have nothing to do with the point being made. And must even be misquoted to make it work.

Psalm 68:18
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

 

[FineLinen]

He descended to the realm of the dead to take captivity captive in order that he might fill the whole universe. (no room for a forever hell in that declaration - otherwise the universe would NOT be filled, nor fulfilled)

Ephesians 4:7-10
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Dear Saint: The ascension of the Lord of Glory in triumph over death is the foundation for the knowledge that nothing of death prevails. He indeed ascended on high as He descended into the depths of despair.

Yes, Steve, He will fill the universe with Himself, from height to depth, all radiating with vibrations of unheard of majesty!

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of the heavens, earth, & underworld IN/EN the Name of all names.

 

[Der Alte]

This is a curious thing that I have noticed but have not taken the time to study out.
The use/misuse of OT quotes in the NT.
How could one build the idea in Ephesians chapter four above based on the words of Psalms chapter 68? (quoted below) It seems to have nothing to do with the point being made. And must even be misquoted to make it work.
Psalm 68:18
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

Interesting concept, I see this a lot among heterodox groups. When scripture as written contradicts someone's teaching "it must be mistranslated/misquoted."

 

[Saint Steven]

I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy" (Rom. 9:16). The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent.

Not entirely sure about that. I suggest the Bible teaches man is capable of making a choice, but without God's guidance will invariably choose unwisely. Can this be expressed as per the above? Freedom in Christ has a lot to do with personal peace and security, which is the fruit of bond-service (ie trust and obedience), which is the light burden which a believer must carry.

So the rationalist idea of moral or political freedom seems to miss the mark in identifying what freedom really is, a spiritual beatitude. It only gives us the fallen version, a shadow or caricature of the real presence of freedom, as revealed in the word and the walk.

Sorry, just musing here...

 

[Saint Steven]

Not entirely sure about that. I suggest the Bible teaches man is capable of making a choice, but without God's guidance will invariably choose unwisely. Can this be expressed as per the above? Freedom in Christ has a lot to do with personal peace and security, which is the fruit of bond-service (ie trust and obedience), which is the light burden which a believer must carry.

So the rationalist idea of moral or political freedom seems to miss the mark in identifying what freedom really is, a spiritual beatitude. It only gives us the fallen version, a shadow or caricature of the real presence of freedom, as revealed in the word and the walk.

Sorry, just musing here...

I balked at that initially as well. But I want to hear Preston out on this.
In retrospect, I'm having more issues with his argument in this post than the opening premise. I have heard plenty of testimony of those born into situations mentioned above that were an absolute beacon of morality in spite of their situation.

But I think Preston is addressing "free moral agent" as a stand-alone concept exclusive of God's part in this. And there has always been the argument about free-will versus election.

I'm guessing that the importance of this point as it relates to Universal Reconciliation has to do with the insistence of the opposition that humankind is saved as a free moral agent prior to death and that is the ONLY opportunity. Let's continue with the reading and see where it goes.

 

[Saint Steven]

The preachers claim that when God made man in the first place, He endowed him with freedom of will, the ability to accept God's love or reject it, to keep God's laws or break them, and that the decision here and now is a final choice. But our Lord says, "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him" (Jn. 6:44). Let us think a moment of just how free man is, how far his freedom reaches. A little observation and study will show that man's freedom has very narrow limits. One is able to wish or desire or purpose as he pleases, but when he comes to carry out his wish or desire or purpose, he finds that he faces a problem. One is not free in the physical realm. Just let him try to jump off the Earth and land on Mars, for example. One is not free in the social realm. Not every man can marry the woman he wishes. One is not free in the economic realm. Not every person who dreams of being a millionaire can become one, no matter how hard he tries. One is not free in the moral and spiritual realm. He may desire with all his being to rid the world of drunkenness and vice, of greed and hate and war, but who has yet accomplished that? Many are not able to free even themselves from a little weed called tobacco!

Life neither begins or ends by choice and free will. Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it, my friend? May I remind you that you were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Did someone say to you, "Tell me, sir - or would you rather be madam? Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair, or perhaps no hair at all? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would green, or red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In Miami, or Hong Kong, or Siberia, or maybe in the Congo?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much as a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being. The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and I, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified). Well did the apostle Paul write....... “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19). If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God. God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe. It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground. It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden. It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden. It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it. And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man.

And it was God who knew the man and woman would be tempted and fall. And God who knew from the beginning that He would redeem fallen man and restore him to His image, by His grace, wisdom and great covenant love expressed through the Christ.

But man, once born again, must choose to take up his cross daily and follow Jesus, to work out his own salvation in fear and trembling. For our God is a consuming fire, and when the wood hay and stubble are burned up, he may be only barely saved, as through fire.

Ultimately it is a case of 'Not my will but thine Lord', to know God's will in our life and submit to it by setting our face like flint, to put our hand to the plough and not look back.

Lord have mercy, for the flesh wars against the spirit. Fill us each day anew with the bread of life so our hearts burn within us as flames of fire for the glory of your Kingdom, thy will be done on earth as in heaven. AMEN

 

[Saint Steven]

And it was God who knew the man and woman would be tempted and fall. And God who knew from the beginning that He would redeem fallen man and restore him to His image, by His grace, wisdom and great covenant love expressed through the Christ.

Thank you.
This is a point that few will actually admit to and articulate. We were set up for a fall.
But as you noted, it was part of the plan of redemption. The story of humankind. The solution coming through the offspring of the woman. To crush the head of the serpent.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thank you.
This is a point that few will actually admit to and articulate. We were set up for a fall.
But as you noted, it was part of the plan of redemption. The story of humankind. The solution coming through the offspring of the woman. To crush the head of the serpent.

Some unbelievers reject the faith on this basis, they find it perverse that God would set man up like that. But that's precisely the perspective of fallen man, who's blind to truth and glory of the gospel. That one's really an excellent illustration of the failure of 'free will' and the inability of man to save himself imho.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some unbelievers reject the faith on this basis, they find it perverse that God would set man up like that. But that's precisely the perspective of fallen man, who's blind to truth and glory of the gospel. That one's really an excellent illustration of the failure of 'free will' and the inability of man to save himself imho.

This is something I find interesting about agnosticism. The facts are pretty much the same for the believer and unbeliever. The difference is in the conclusion.

The unbeliever will blame God for us being set up, saying it was unfair. (the bad news) The believer will recognize the redemptive aspect of it. (the good news)

I think God likes a good story. Noah's arc, the Exodus, the Red Sea crossing, the walls of Jericho, on and on it goes. The redemption of humankind will be no different.

Another reason why the forever burning hell narrative doesn't fit the character of God. It does, however, fit the character of the church that published it. Very telling.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think God likes a good story. Noah's arc, the Exodus, the Red Sea crossing, the walls of Jericho, on and on it goes. The redemption of humankind will be no different.

A poster on CF recently objected to UR on the basis that 'God always just saves the remnant', which was the case in many of the big OT events most notably the flood and the Babylonian captivity.

But through it all is the message of (a) ultimate redemption and (b) restoration of all promise. So this is what happens in Revelation - the great revelation of the delivery of the 'forgotten universal covenant' (if you will).

I've been researching various commentaries on the great Biblical covenants, and it's really rare to find Isaiah 45:23 mentioned, despite it being so emphatic and a development/ expansion on the Abrahamic covenant, plus leading into the advent and mission of Jesus to save the whole world.

Makes me think of the Ezekiel 40:1-10 passage where a small trickle of water comes from the temple, and swells into a mighty river on its way to the Dead Sea, where it brings everything to life. Saving the best wine til last lol.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The unbeliever will blame God for us being set up, saying it was unfair. (the bad news) The believer will recognize the redemptive aspect of it. (the good news)

The believer gets the inside track, which is again the larger hope:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Rom 8:20-21)

 

[Saint Steven]

The believer gets the inside track, which is again the larger hope:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Rom 8:20-21)

Thanks for sharing that scripture.

The creation (all of creation, every created thing) was subjected to futility.
Not willingly. (the created things did NOT choose it)
That same creation (all of creation, every created thing) will be set free.
Into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Where is the forever burning hell in that?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thanks for sharing that scripture.

The creation (all of creation, every created thing) was subjected to futility.
Not willingly. (the created things did NOT choose it)
That same creation (all of creation, every created thing) will be set free.
Into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Where is the forever burning hell in that?

Bingo, Paul reveals the reasons for the fall and the plan of redemption. Not out of perversity or caprice, but God's heart of hope of freedom from corruption. So the Kingdom will be greater than the Garden.

This has got to be the classic Biblical expression of 'the larger hope' imho.