I believe in Jesus, but I cannot accept some mainstream Christian beliefs.

[Kal Perry]

Der Alter, again thank you for your comments, although they are getting more angry! How else can you teach me if you do not know where I am coming from?

Akatalytos and Aptharsia are both proper Greek words to imply endlessness; they are translated correctly as: Immortal and Incorruptible. Aionios I am not satisfied meant endless time. But rather time unto the end of the age.

I have been extremely transparent here, please do not ridicule me for my answers. it is your wisdom I seek, not your wrath. My quote from Martin Luther was perfectly acceptable, to correct me was not necessary.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;(AGES)

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds (AGES) were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This "worlds" is the Greek word AION and it means AGES, "by whom also He made the AGES." He made these ages, and they are not eternal, although certainly God is Eternal and He created Zopoiee life; immortal life and when we are given immortality (This is the real gift of God) we will be incorruptible, Aptharsia. This is life everlasting, NOT "Aionios Life" but Zopoiee life, that is, Aptharsia or incorruptible life and it will last forever NOT Aionios Life of the Age, this life will be destroyed when it is expired within the AGE, and then God will Grant unto those that He Will, ETERNAL LIFE.

Hebrews 5:6 "As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

For ever, EIS AION. How can this mean that Christ is forever, all eternity, after the order of Melchisdec? this is confusing!

You may not like my reasoning but it is certainly NOT illogical. I still however thank you for your devotion to my cause! Kal

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, again thank you for your comments, although they are getting more angry! How else can you teach me if you do not know where I am coming from?

Why is it that when someone is proven wrong from credible, verifiable, sources they accuse the person who corrected them of "being angry,""full of wrath," etc?

Akatalytos and Aptharsia are both proper Greek words to imply endlessness; they are translated correctly as: Immortal and Incorruptible. Aionios I am not satisfied meant endless time. But rather time unto the end of the age.

What you may/may not be satisfied with are not evidence of anything. Neither of those words would work very well with Life would they?

I have been extremely transparent here, please do not ridicule me for my answers. it is your wisdom I seek, not your wrath. My quote from Martin Luther was perfectly acceptable, to correct me was not necessary.

When I was about 11 I learned to speak German on my own. The word Luther used was "stehe" which means "stand" not "go."

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;(AGES)

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds (AGES) were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This "worlds" is the Greek word AION and it means AGES, "by whom also He made the AGES." He made these ages, and they are not eternal, although certainly God is Eternal and He created Zopoiee life; immortal life and when we are given immortality (This is the real gift of God) we will be incorruptible, Aptharsia. This is life everlasting, NOT "Aionios Life" but Zopoiee life, that is, Aptharsia or incorruptible life and it will last forever NOT Aionios Life of the Age, this life will be destroyed when it is expired within the AGE, and then God will Grant unto those that He Will, ETERNAL LIFE.

We were not discussing the meaning of AION, but AIONIOS. And it is a logical fallacy to insist that "AIONIOS" must mean "ages." I cannot find a Greek word similar to "ZOPOIEE"

Hebrews 5:6 "As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

For ever, EIS AION. How can this mean that Christ is forever, all eternity, after the order of Melchisdec? this is confusing!

You may not like my reasoning but it is certainly NOT illogical. I still however thank you for your devotion to my cause! Kal

The word translated "after" is "kata" which means "according to." Heb 5:6 is quoting Psalm 110:1-7. The word translated "forever" in Psalm 110 is עלם. I see nothing confusing at all.

 

[Kal Perry]

We were not discussing the meaning of AION, but AIONIOS. And it is a logical fallacy to insist that "AIONIOS" must mean "ages." I cannot find a Greek word similar to "ZOPOIEE"

Excuse my mis-spelling of Zoopoieo, it is this life that will be quikened not AIONIOS life of the age. That was what I was saying! Akatalytos, Aptharsia and Athanasia are all words which imply eternal life by their very nature. They are incorruptible, means that it cannot be destroyed therefore it is eternal. Immortality by it's very definition implies eternal as it cannot die.

My point again is that Life in the AGES will cease at some point within the AGE. That is Aionios Life. But the gift of God is not Aionios Life but IMMORTAL LIFE.

1 COR. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This victory of death is not in AIONIOS LIFE but in ATHANASIA LIFE or Immortal or Eternal Life, this life is not AIONIOS LIFE of the AGE, but everlasting eternal life of immortality, and furthermore their is NO confusion to what it is implying.

I have ZERO doubts to this word ATHANASIA being eternal, but as to Aionios I am uncertain, and I have read and copied your list of 17 scholars.

 

[Der Alte]

Excuse my mis-spelling of Zoopoieo, it is this life that will be quikened not AIONIOS life of the age. That was what I was saying! Akatalytos, Aptharsia and Athanasia are all words which imply eternal life by their very nature. They are incorruptible, means that it cannot be destroyed therefore it is eternal. Immortality by it's very definition implies eternal as it cannot die.

ζωοποιέω/zōopoieō, is the verb form of ζωή, it occurs eleven times. It is translated as "quicken" and "gives life." It never occurs with the noun ζωή.

My point again is that Life in the AGES will cease at some point within the AGE. That is Aionios Life. But the gift of God is not Aionios Life but IMMORTAL LIFE.

1 COR. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This victory of death is not in AIONIOS LIFE but in ATHANASIA LIFE or Immortal or Eternal Life, this life is not AIONIOS LIFE of the AGE, but everlasting eternal life of immortality, and furthermore their is NO confusion to what it is implying. I have ZERO doubts to this word ATHANASIA being eternal, but as to Aionios I am uncertain, and I have read and copied your list of 17 scholars.

Unfortunately we have no scripture upon which we can base an assumption that Akatalytos, Aptharsia and Athanasia would mean eternal life but aionios would not. I note once again that you have not addressed this vs.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The reduplication of the word αιωνιος, in the phrase, εις αιωνας αιωνων in this, and other, verses is an example of epezeuxis. Repeating a word for emphasis. This passage emphasizes the eternal nature of the punishment. And in this particular vs. the eternal nature of the punishment is further emphasized by the addition of the words "and they have no rest day nor night." It is very clear that John intended to say that the punishment of this group is eternal, everlasting, unending.​

 

[Kal Perry]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Forever and ever, eis aion aion. I believe this scripture to say that their smoke ascends up to the ages of the ages.

The fact that their is no rest day or night indicates that time is involved, that is day and night. If you were in hell what purpose is day and night? Is not Jesus the light of the world? day and night measure time.

Unto the Ages of the Ages indicates at some point in the distant AGE that there will be an end to the ages, these are the same ages that God created.

1 Cor 15:22-
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end (THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....

As I have said before there will come an end to the AGES and when that time comes, it will be as as the scriptures say, "That God will be ALL in ALL."

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As IN Adam ALL die, even so IN Christ shall ALL be made alive. This alive is the word ZOOPOIEO, it means as you have said quickened, brought back to life from the dead.

If ALL men die in Adam as the scriptures say, then why can't we believe that "in Christ ALL men live". We are dead because of Adam's sin we are alive because of Christ redemption, Funny how we do not add any stipulation to dear Adam to believe that ALL men die in Adam!

So here is my transparency, this scripture to me says, ALL men die in Adam because of his original sin. ALL men live in Christ because of His sacrifice for mankind and for this original sin, it was the redemption of the cross, HILASMOS, a sin covering.

And No, I do not believe that you can go to heaven with out Christ, or without being born again.

I do not have time to write on Reconcilliation or Remdemption, as I am flying out in the morning to Florida on business, however this scripture is perplexing to me:

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.







​

 

[2ducklow]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Forever and ever, eis aion aion. I believe this scripture to say that their smoke ascends up to the ages of the ages.
​

Eis means in or into, ( bible translators change prepositions willy nilly all the time I couldn't find one honest one on this verse with the Greek prep. eis, changing prep. is an easy way that bible translators have for putting their doctrine in the bible, they do it tons of times.) so the meaning is that the smoke ascends into the ages of ages. Likewise the meaning of rev. 20..10 is that they are tormented into the ages of ages.

(Rotherham) Revelation 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto (in or into) the ages of ages.


(Rotherham) Revelation 20:15 And, if anyone was not found, in the book of life, written, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The fact that their is no rest day or night indicates that time is involved, that is day and night. If you were in hell what purpose is day and night? Is not Jesus the light of the world? day and night measure time.

figure of speech, like verses that say God has a right arm, or a heart , or a soul. I Just something we can relate to.

Unto the Ages of the Ages indicates at some point in the distant AGE that there will be an end to the ages, these are the same ages that God created.

1 Cor 15:22-
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end (THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....

As I have said before there will come an end to the AGES and when that time comes, it will be as as the scriptures say, "That God will be ALL in ALL."

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As IN Adam ALL die, even so IN Christ shall ALL be made alive. This alive is the word ZOOPOIEO, it means as you have said quickened, brought back to life from the dead.

If ALL men die in Adam as the scriptures say, then why can't we believe that "in Christ ALL men live". We are dead because of Adam's sin we are alive because of Christ redemption, Funny how we do not add any stipulation to dear Adam to believe that ALL men die in Adam!

So here is my transparency, this scripture to me says, ALL men die in Adam because of his original sin. ALL men live in Christ because of His sacrifice for mankind and for this original sin, it was the redemption of the cross, HILASMOS, a sin covering.

And No, I do not believe that you can go to heaven with out Christ, or without being born again.

I do not have time to write on Reconcilliation or Remdemption, as I am flying out in the morning to Florida on business, however this scripture is perplexing to me:

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

you haven't said what you believe that rev. 20 means. My guess, from what you said, is that you believe that non believers in Christ are tormented in the lake of Fire until the ages of ages starts, or perhaps you are saying they are tormented durring the ages of ages and when the ages of ages ends their torment is over and they get to have God in them. Or perhaps you're just trying to bury rev. 20.10 with scriptures you feel refute it.

Does the Devil also get God in him at this time, It says non believers are cast in the Lake of fire with satan and the false prophet who are torment day and night for ever and ever, (into the ages of ages).


Bon voyage.

 

[SkyWriting]

...I can't accept that believing in something is what dictates where someone ends up....

Can you accept that what you believe is where you are now?
Then what you believe is where you have ended up.

Would you like to stay "where you are" now when you die,
or would you like to be transported to some other reality?

I mean, would you like if your current view of life after death
remains as you now believe, or would it be ok if your entire
world was turned upside down for all eternity?

I don't think you'd like that outcome.

So there are two options, for this argument.

1. What you believe determines what you receive upon your earthly death.
God is love, Jesus is Love, Heaven is a place to meet with God.

or

2. When you die, you are subjected for all eternity to reside in a place that is totally unlike what you expected it to be. Actually, it's an UNBELIEVABLE place that is alien to your thoughts and you can't even comprehend where you are. Your mind doesn't accept where you are and it's surreal (like a nightmare).

Number 2 is the option you described where what you believe is NOT where you end up.

 

[Der Alte]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Forever and ever, eis aion aion. I believe this scripture to say that their smoke ascends up to the ages of the ages.

The fact that their is no rest day or night indicates that time is involved, that is day and night. If you were in hell what purpose is day and night? Is not Jesus the light of the world? day and night measure time.

Unto the Ages of the Ages indicates at some point in the distant AGE that there will be an end to the ages, these are the same ages that God created.

2DL has already addressed this but I'll put in my 2¢ (wonder what that is in Euros?) I see a trend here. When scripture, as written, contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions then they don't mean what they say they must mean something else, so you just make up something that sounds plausible to you. Where does Rev 14:11 say anything about the ages or the punishment ending? The simple explanation is, in his writings John, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit used terms like "day nor night" because his audience could understand them.

Let us remember that, of you and I, only one of us has presented any grammatical, lexical, and historical evidence supporting his argument. You made a logical fallacy accusation against Plato, et al, by referring to them as a group of pagans. News flash amigo, Koine Greek did not spring up instantly when the apostles started writing the NT! Koine is a simplified form of classical Greek which started with non Jewish, non Christian Greeks ca. 800 BC.

Now since this vs. says nothing about the ages or the punishment ending perhaps you can tell us in your reinterpretation of scripture, at which point in the far distant, age of the ages, does God's word change from "they have no rest day nor night," to say something like "at the end of the ages they shall have rest?"

1 Cor 15:22-
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end (THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....

Notice how once again you have changed scripture, you have inserted the words "THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES" to make this vs. line up with your assumptions presuppositions.

As I have said before there will come an end to the AGES and when that time comes, it will be as as the scriptures say, "That God will be ALL in ALL."

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yes as you, NOT scripture, has said. Here you take two widely separated vss. cram them together without any regard for their context, and build an argument.

As IN Adam ALL die, even so IN Christ shall ALL be made alive. This alive is the word ZOOPOIEO, it means as you have said quickened, brought back to life from the dead.

If ALL men die in Adam as the scriptures say, then why can't we believe that "in Christ ALL men live". We are dead because of Adam's sin we are alive because of Christ redemption, Funny how we do not add any stipulation to dear Adam to believe that ALL men die in Adam!

All mankind is "in" Adam because they are actual, literal, physical descendants of Adam. Not all men are "in Christ." Only those who are "in Christ," does Christ make alive. Also, let us remember that ζωοποιέω/zōopoieō, is the verb form of ζωή. It is NOT some strange word with a completely different meaning.

So here is my transparency, this scripture to me says, ALL men die in Adam because of his original sin. ALL men live in Christ because of His sacrifice for mankind and for this original sin, it was the redemption of the cross, HILASMOS, a sin covering.

All men do NOT live in Christ! You are forgetting, that in the day of judgment, Jesus told some people, "I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." When will Jesus say to those workers of iniquity, "Enter into my rest?"

And No, I do not believe that you can go to heaven with out Christ, or without being born again.

I do not have time to write on Reconcilliation or Remdemption, as I am flying out in the morning to Florida on business, however this scripture is perplexing to me:

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

It certainly sounds like you believe someone, "can go to heaven with out Christ, or without being born again." Yes, when you have time please show us the scripture where the wicked are reconciled, baptized, redeemed, etc. after death. I can understand why you are perplexed because you have a proof text, vice a systematic, Theology. And most of your proof texts are out-of-context. Also notice how you have totally ignored all the evidence I have presented. It is one thing to present evidence which disproves evidence that I have presented but in this case that is impossible since all the scholars have given historical examples of where the word aionios was used and what it meant.

As for Malachi 4:3 the day of the Lord is the day of judgment. This describes a one time event, in this life, when the righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked.

 

[Phinehas2]

This principle is fundamental to a huge percentage of debates here.
As Jesus refers to hell and eternal death, He also says to have faith in Him is to obey His teaching.
In short, to say one has a relationship Jesus and disagrees with what He says, when Jesus says one can’t have faith in Him unless one agrees with what He says, is a contradiction in terms.
This actually questions the very claim someone has a relationship with Jesus.

 

[Kal Perry]

1 Cor 15:22-
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end (THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....
​

Notice how once again you have changed scripture, you have inserted the words "THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES" to make this vs. line up with your assumptions presuppositions.

Seriously can you not see this? THEN COMES THE END when He shall deliver up the KINGDOM to God....Der Alter you reference this as if my interpretation is incorrect!

Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to God, Has this already happened? NO
but when it does the ages will end. Why will they end? because TIME will END. there is no time in eternity!

Rev 14:11 the smoke that goes up to the ages of the ages. makes perfect since when you consider that God created the AGES. However there is coming a time when the ages will end and eternity takeover. I did not say begin because eternity cannot begin nor can it end.

Everything in this world is finite, and everything was created by God who is Eternal. Man is NOT immortal, God is immortal and He must give to us immortality for us to live eternally.

Our finite world will end at some point, when, I do not know, but it will be at the consumation of the Ages. and absolutely everything that excist with in the Ages is finite and will end.

I do not believe in a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:11 I believe much of it to be spiritual in context and certainly the Holy Spirit used much symbolisim and hyperpole. for instance; if our body returns to the dust of the earth, how is it that a soul produces literal smoke? How is it that day and night are in hell? Silly to think this is literal! How do you distinguish between day and night with no eyes? do souls have eyes?

I do not believe that God is going to torture MOST of mankind in this fabeled pit of Hell for all eternity, nor the lake of fire. what real purpose is their in that? What does it please God? I know this makes since to you when you consider Hitler and the likes, but consider some less arbitrary victim? Let's say the 17 year old son of a Jewish Rabbi who adore's his father, and loves God, Does He suffer eternally in Hell with his smoke and torment going up forever and ever?

Why do you think God will never be satisfied with HIS eternal punishment on this Jewish boy? For his mere 17 years of life, he will suffer eternally, not hardly! I am sad to say that I am not smart enough to scripturally refute all the false interpretations of Anglosaxon Christian doctrine, but this is not the God I know! Truly though it was those individuals who had that understanding of God that started the Holy Wars, the Crusades, Killed the Indians and mutilated the Jews! Why? because God hates them and they are destined for eternal hell anyway. All of these groups and organizations killed at the instruction of their interpretation of Christian beliefs.

I went to seminary for only 1 year. They taught that the world was some 6000 years old and pretty much to believe otherwise was heresy! I am Gemologist by trade and let me tell you if you do not already know it, the world is not 6000 years old.

 

[Der Alte]

1 Cor 15:22-
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end (THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....

Notice how once again you have changed scripture, you have inserted the words "THIS IS THE END OF THE AGES" to make this vs. line up with your assumptions presuppositions.

Seriously can you not see this? THEN COMES THE END when He shall deliver up the KINGDOM to God....Der Alter you reference this as if my interpretation is incorrect!

You are incorrect! Read your own proof text it says exactly what the end refers to, "Then [cometh] the end [ . . . ] when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.[of this world]"

Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to God, Has this already happened? NO
but when it does the ages will end. Why will they end? because TIME will END. there is no time in eternity!

Your proof text is not referring to eternity. And OBTW which 'eternity" are you referring to where are the scripture references which refer to the 'eternity" you are talking about here?

Rev 14:11 the smoke that goes up to the ages of the ages. makes perfect since when you consider that God created the AGES. However there is coming a time when the ages will end and eternity takeover. I did not say begin because eternity cannot begin nor can it end.

As I have shown conclusively from seventeen lexical sources εις αιωνας αιωνων/"eis aionas aionon" means eternal, unending, everlasting and you have NOT addressed any of my sources just stated your opinion, what you think/believe words mean. You have no evidence of any kind for the statement highlighted in red!

Everything in this world is finite, and everything was created by God who is Eternal. Man is NOT immortal, God is immortal and He must give to us immortality for us to live eternally.

And do you think that God being omnipotent can cause men to have conscious existence without granting them the ζωην αιωνιον/"Zoen aionion," transalted eternal life, given to the righteous? But wait that term uses the word αιωνιον so according to you it will end when the ages end. OBTW God himself describes dead men in Sheol speaking, moving, having knowledge, etc. in Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22. Jesus also describes dead men in Hades moving, seeing, speaking, feeling pain, etc. separated from the righteous who are comforted in Luk 16:19-31.

Our finite world will end at some point, when, I do not know, but it will be at the consumation of the Ages. and absolutely everything that excist with in the Ages is finite and will end.

Where is the scripture which describes the ending of the finite world as the "consummation of the ages?"

I do not believe in a literal interpretation of Rev. 14:11 I believe much of it to be spiritual in context and certainly the Holy Spirit used much symbolisim and hyperpole. for instance; if our body returns to the dust of the earth, how is it that a soul produces literal smoke? How is it that day and night are in hell? Silly to think this is literal! How do you distinguish between day and night with no eyes? do souls have eyes?

Of course, you don't believe in a literal interpretation. I call this the SPAM-Fig copout, whenever scripture, as written, contradicts a false teaching then it is dismissed as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative. There is a well known maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense, to look for any other sense."

While our body does return to the dust, our spirit returns to God who gave it. God is capable of making smoke where he wants it! John was talking to people of his day in language they understood! It is silly for people to reject the language that John used because you think there is no day or night in hell. His audience clearly understood the double reference to eternal, unending, etc. i.e. "unto the aion of the aions," and "no rest night or day." I have already shown from irrefutable sources, which you have ignored, that "aionios" did mean eternal, unending, everlasting, etc.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain.(Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).​

I do not believe that God is going to torture MOST of mankind in this fabeled pit of Hell for all eternity, nor the lake of fire. what real purpose is their in that? What does it please God? I know this makes since to you when you consider Hitler and the likes, but consider some less arbitrary victim? Let's say the 17 year old son of a Jewish Rabbi who adore's his father, and loves God, Does He suffer eternally in Hell with his smoke and torment going up forever and ever?

Where does scripture say "a 17 year old son of a Jewish Rabbi who adore's his father, and loves God" will be punished in hell? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Roman's chap. 1 and chap. 11.

Why do you think God will never be satisfied with HIS eternal punishment on this Jewish boy? For his mere 17 years of life, he will suffer eternally, not hardly! I am sad to say that I am not smart enough to scripturally refute all the false interpretations of Anglosaxon Christian doctrine, but this is not the God I know! Truly though it was those individuals who had that understanding of God that started the Holy Wars, the Crusades, Killed the Indians and mutilated the Jews! Why? because God hates them and they are destined for eternal hell anyway. All of these groups and organizations killed at the instruction of their interpretation of Christian beliefs.

This is the image of God you have chosen to accept whether you can support your assumptions/presuppositions from scripture, or not.

I went to seminary for only 1 year. They taught that the world was some 6000 years old and pretty much to believe otherwise was heresy! I am Gemologist by trade and let me tell you if you do not already know it, the world is not 6000 years old.

Earlier you said you had a master's degree. I don't know of anyone who can earn a master's degree in one year. Looks like we can't believe anything you say.

 

[Kal Perry]

Never did I say I had a master's degree and never did I elude to being anything other than a believer. In one other post I said I had went to seminary, I did not say anything further!

As to your level of wisdom I have found it to be helpful to some degree, as I have consistently stated it was your wisdom that has intriged me. However if you think me a liar I can only say reread ALL my post, then you will know the truth.

Der Alter, fact is that I am quite ordinary by all accounts in this world. But to debate scripture with a scholar such as yourself is quite gratifying. I however am still not convinced that God's intention for all mankind who are not Christian is to torture them eternally!

If you thought that I have mistakenly misrepresented myself to you, I am indeed sorry, please research evidence it will prove to the contrary.

I had a Jewish girlfriend in college who was killed in a car wreck, by far she was a greater human being than I. She was very smart, in fact she went on to become an attorney and in fact she loved God. I on the other hand was wild, I rode professional rodeo for 15 years,(Calf Roper) I drank to much consorted with perhaps people of a more earthly way! By your interpretation of scripture you have my ex girlfriend burning eternally in hell, and perhaps me in heaven, no in fact you probably have me in hell also.

God is not torturing Janna! and He is not going to torture me!
Your in Christ, Kal

 

[ShermanN]

As noted before, to me "aionian" being used to modify both "judgment" and the "fire" that destroyed Sodom indicates that "aionian" does not necessarily = endless or forever. Judgment is not "endless", and neither was the fire that destroyed Sodom "endless". Also "aionian" was used in the LXX to translate "olam" which itself speaks of that which is beyond view. And something being beyond view was also a means of speaking of something being beyond understanding. And thus punishment, judgment, and destruction that is aionian is punishment, judgment, and destruction that is of the realm that is beyond view, the eternal realm that transcends time, the realm of God. Also, if scripture had meant to communicate the concept of something that was endless, other Greek words could have been used such as amarantos, akatalutos, aperantos, etc.

I have not been on this forum much the last several days, but here is another article on the use and meaning of "aionian" from Word Studies in the New Testament, by Marvin R. Vincent http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/vincent.html​

Note on


Olethron Aionion


(eternal destruction)
​

'Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, 'o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10. The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as 'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition. If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. "They shall be changed" (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, "the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

 

[Der Alte]

Never did I say I had a master's degree and never did I elude to being anything other than a believer. In one other post I said I had went to seminary, I did not say anything further!

As to your level of wisdom I have found it to be helpful to some degree, as I have consistently stated it was your wisdom that has intriged me. However if you think me a liar I can only say reread ALL my post, then you will know the truth.

I did not remember your statement exactly. Here is what you said.

Actually, I've studied Greek at the Masters level also and am well informed concerning this topic.[ . . . ]

How much Biblical Greek can you learn in one year, carrying a full load of required courses?

Der Alter, fact is that I am quite ordinary by all accounts in this world. But to debate scripture with a scholar such as yourself is quite gratifying. I however am still not convinced that God's intention for all mankind who are not Christian is to torture them eternally!

I am also ordinary. I have never earned a salary as a pastor, scholar, teacher, professor, etc. And I have read and studied and acquired more resources, for my own enlightenment, since grad school than I did while there.

I had a Jewish girlfriend in college who was killed in a car wreck, by far she was a greater human being than I. She was very smart, in fact she went on to become an attorney and in fact she loved God. I on the other hand was wild, I rode professional rodeo for 15 years,(Calf Roper) I drank to much consorted with perhaps people of a more earthly way! By your interpretation of scripture you have my ex girlfriend burning eternally in hell, and perhaps me in heaven, no in fact you probably have me in hell also.

God is not torturing Janna! and He is not going to torture me!
Your in Christ, Kal

I don't know what kind of Christianity you have been exposed to but I don't know of any denomination which teaches that Jews are automatically consigned to hell.

 

[FredVB]

That hell exists does not mean that any persons in this world before we come to the hereafter have a true picture of it. Descriptions in the Bible are picturesque, to put us in position to truly recoil from a destiny there, so that we might respond to God's grace to deliver us from sin, its power, AND that destiny, to be with him in blissful fellowship for eternity. But in his perfection God is totally just, all sin is always paid for. Allowances are made for the degree of knowledge one has, but judgment includes total fairness to each person for all that they have done, and so there are different degrees one may suffer in going to hell, but as it is an eternity, no one should want to go there, and knowledge of God's grace in Christ has gone forth, and for those who are searching, God gives them the grace, which had made searching possible, to know more and find the possibility of salvation from God. But anything we can do can never save us.

Fred
http://christiantribeofyahweh.yolasite.com

 

[Der Alte]

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, 'o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21);

Many scholars do not support this view. See e.g. the seventeen sources I cited before.

and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

And the term "the aeon of the aeons" applied to God only by Paul doesn't tell us it means eternal, everlasting, unending?

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Contradicted by the seventeen sources I posted.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless;

How does Vincent know that God is endless when he rejects that meaning for the word used most frequently to describe God?

but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is NO evidence here nothing but Vincent's preconceptions. Evidently Vincent is not convinced of what he claims since he begins this discourse with the phrase, "the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated."

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it.

Unsupported assumption.

Paul uses the word [αιδιος/aidios] once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed.

When Paul use both words αιδιος and aionios to refer to God does he mean that God is both "eternal" and "lasting only for the ages?" Or do both words mean the same thing?

God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

We are supposed to believe that Paul is not equating the terms αιωνων αφθαρτω in 1 Tim 1:17.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal,[aionon] immortal, [aftharto] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

No problem here.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking.

Can someone show me clearly in scripture how long and where these "certain" or "peculiar" aions begin and end?

In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Can someone show me in scripture where "the aeon or dispensation of Messiah" begins and ends?

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as 'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

Who is Bishop Wescott and why should we accept anything he says? Just another Theologian stating an unsupported opinion.

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes.

Not supported by any of the lexicons.

It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions[/COLOR].

Not supported by the lexicons.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe [Speculation!] this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

Scripture which clearly defines the length, beginning and ending of these so-called aeons?

 

[Kal Perry]

I did not remember your statement exactly. Here is what you said.

this was originally posted by shermanN

Actually, I've studied Greek at the Masters level also and am well informed concerning this topic.[ . . . ]
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Maybe ShermanN said this, But I Kal Perry DID NOT! would you be so kind as to state that I did not lie concerning this matter! it would be difficult for me to continue talking with you if you think I am a liar!

I said I went to seminary for one year, of which I am not nearly as proud of as you, as they dictated that the world is some 6000 years old. I quit school because I am certain that the world is older than 6000 years. If they were wrong about this I figured what else were they wrong about.

Your quote to me:
How much Biblical Greek can you learn in one year, carrying a full load of required courses?

I never took Biblical Greek or Hebrew. nor did I ever say that I had, but I thank you for thinking that I might had.

Your quote to me:
I don't know what kind of Christianity you have been exposed to but I don't know of any denomination which teaches that Jews are automatically consigned to hell.

Der Alter, then how pray tell do you supose that a Jew can go to heaven without being "born again" and dying without acknowledging Jesus as their Saviour? Are you suggesting that God has a different plan for Jews than he does for Christians? When I suggest this fellow Christians call me a heretic! Furthermore I do not know a Christian Church that doesn't believe that Jews are going to Hell, although I have been in a few that dance around the subject so as best not to offend anyone, you know we don;t want to look antisemetic. What does this mean for your Luke 16 theory?
furthermore what kind of statement is this that you said: "I don't know of any denomination which teaches that Jews are automatically consigned to hell."
Why dear sir don't you just say what you mean? What kind of double talk is this? Do you believe by your understanding of doctrine that Jews are going to hell? it is a YES or NO not a "maybe they are not consigned to hell" well, what is it?

I asked you tons of questions you did not answer, yet I answered all of yours, albeit not in agreement with you, by your doctrine.

Answer me this please, after Christ died, who was the first person to enter into your everlasting etermnal hell to be tormented day and night and their smoke ascending up forever and ever, who had never even heard of the name of Jesus? Let alone had a chance to worship Him as Saviour?

It's a simple question if you think about it, maybe it was the Indians in the N.American Cont, perhaps it was the Aboriginals of Austrailia, certainly it could of been someone in China or Japan? no wait I got it, it was a Jewish boy age 17 who adored his father and respected everything his dad told him and his dad told him that this Jesus was not the Messiah, that the Messiah was still to come, and because he loved his dad and believed him 2000 years later he is still burning in hell!

I apologize for my sarcasim but your dogmatic approach to Christianity as if you seem to be the only one who has true understanding of the scriptures is quite appalling! I know plenty of great men and women of God who do not share your ideas but none of them would belittle you.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Maybe ShermanN said this, But I Kal Perry DID NOT! would you be so kind as to state that I did not lie concerning this matter! it would be difficult for me to continue talking with you if you think I am a liar!

My apologies I confused you with another poster.

I said I went to seminary for one year, of which I am not nearly as proud of as you, as they dictated that the world is some 6000 years old. I quit school because I am certain that the world is older than 6000 years. If they were wrong about this I figured what else were they wrong about.

So one professor said something to the effect that the earth is 6000 years old and you automatically assume the entire school is wrong about everything? That sounds like a Christlike attitude, NOT! Where have I expressed or implied any pride in any of my accomplishments?

Der Alter, then how pray tell do you supose that a Jew can go to heaven without being "born again" and dying without acknowledging Jesus as their Saviour? Are you suggesting that God has a different plan for Jews than he does for Christians? When I suggest this fellow Christians call me a heretic! Furthermore I do not know a Christian Church that doesn't believe that Jews are going to Hell, although I have been in a few that dance around the subject so as best not to offend anyone, you know we don;t want to look antisemetic. What does this mean for your Luke 16 theory?

Have you ever read Romans 11, written by a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee explaining God's ultimate plan for His chosen people?

furthermore what kind of statement is this that you said:
"I don't know of any denomination which teaches that Jews are automatically consigned to hell."
Why dear sir don't you just say what you mean? What kind of double talk is this? Do you believe by your understanding of doctrine that Jews are going to hell? it is a YES or NO not a "maybe they are not consigned to hell" well, what is it?

Read Romans 11. Only people who knowingly reject Jesus will be rejected by Jesus.

Answer me this please, after Christ died, who was the first person to enter into your everlasting etermnal hell to be tormented day and night and their smoke ascending up forever and ever, who had never even heard of the name of Jesus? Let alone had a chance to worship Him as Saviour?

It's a simple question if you think about it, maybe it was the Indians in the N.American Cont, perhaps it was the Aboriginals of Austrailia, certainly it could of been someone in China or Japan? no wait I got it, it was a Jewish boy age 17 who adored his father and respected everything his dad told him and his dad told him that this Jesus was not the Messiah, that the Messiah was still to come, and because he loved his dad and believed him 2000 years later he is still burning in hell!

I don't respond to meaningless rubbish like this. It is nothing but a personal diatribe which has nothing to do with any concept of historical, Christianity!

I apologize for my sarcasim but your dogmatic approach to Christianity as if you seem to be the only one who has true understanding of the scriptures is quite appalling! I know plenty of great men and women of God who do not share your ideas but none of them would belittle you.

Evidently I am not allowed to sincerely believe what I do and be able to support my beliefs from scripture and other credible sources.

 

[Kal Perry]

I am glad to see that we will be able to continue writing, I feel much better now that you do not think I was lying.

o.k. your quote:
Read Romans 11. Only people who knowingly reject Jesus will be rejected by Jesus.

I can agree with this, however to say this is the equivalent as to saying that there is another way into heaven other than by being born again, or by accepting Jesus as Savior. It also opens the door to wondering if it would be better to not know Jesus and possibly go to heaven than it would if you know Him and then reject Him?

I probably should not of quit school, all I really wanted to do was study Greek.

 

[katallasso]

But anything we can do can never save us.

Fred
http://christiantribeofyahweh.yolasite.com

Exactly Fred....thank you Jesus for grace, unmerited favor, the great love of an all loving Father...."who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10.

kat