I became sick when I started reading about the Doctrine of Reprobation. Thoughts on it?

Neogaia777 · Feb 15, 2017

Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...

God Bless!

Well, law or works is actually the beginning and the end, and faith or grace is somewhere, and is for the somewhere's, in between, actually...

God Bless!

EmSw · Feb 15, 2017

MDC said:
When has anyone on here condoned or teach antinomianism?

Do you believe one is saved by faith and grace and not by following the ten commandments? If so, you are an antinomian

MDC said:
You really don't get it. The FRUIT of obedience, by which the child of God produces, is different from the self righteous obedience, to the laws of God. In that the self righteous thinks his obedience is MERITING Gods favor and is full of pride and arrogance. And the saved obey, for love of the truth. The love for righteousness. And the love for Christ and His Word, all done in faith and resting in their refuge and anchor, the Lord Himself!

And what makes you better, in that you get it and I don't? And you call me proud and arrogant?

I obey because Jesus told us to, not because I'm trying to merit anything. Did you know Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him? According to this, why would anyone desire to obey Him?

The saved obey because they love Him; they keep His commandments because He told them to do so.

MDC said:
By nature, through regeneration, the elect desire righteousness and is in dispair over sin and his own wretchedness. The just live by faith and a repentant heart. The self righteous is puffed up by nature, being dead in his sin and a slave to it, thinking he can merit Gods favor somehow. How do you differ from the one who came to Jesus, in the scripture you give??

Did Jesus merit God's favor by obeying? If so, why aren't you following Jesus' example?

MDC said:
Asking "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life".. Jesus told him " if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." All these things I have kept from my youth, the man said. But Jesus told him, if you want to be PERFECT, go sell what you have and give to the poor... and come follow me.. But the man couldn't. And showed his arrogance of self righteousness. Jesus was actually showing him that he COULDNT keep the law PERFECTLY to inherit life! Because the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It exposes our guilt and inabilities to please God. The law shows us our naked rotten wretched self!! And by what our Lord said, should've humbled him in sorrow over his guilt and drive him to the feet of Jesus. To seek Gods mercy and to be found in Christ! But instead of this self righteous man humbling himself and realizing his own wretched inability and guilt, he was puffed up in pride, in thinking his obedience to the laws of God, MERITED Gods favor somehow, and so he left sorrowful. Christ was actually exposing that mans true heart by telling him that. Then His disciples ask, who then can be saved?".. Jesus said "with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Divine Sovereign Grace alone saves. From start to finish. It is Christ and His merits alone that Is the foundation by which a sinner is saved. So how do you and your doctrine of works salvation differ from the self righteous man? Doesn't differ at all

If Jesus merited anything, why is it you are trying to make His merits your own? Why don't you obey the truth, do good, practice righteousness, and keep His commandments? If you love Him, you should be doing all these things, and not taking His merit and calling it your own.

Albion · Feb 15, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Got any scripture to refute, cause I based that answer off scripture...?

Of course. The New Testament has plenty. Consider the one that is perhaps most famous: "The Just shall live by Faith." In fact, it's the theme of the whole book of Romans.

MDC · Feb 15, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...

God Bless!

Well, law or works is actually the beginning and the end, and faith or grace is somewhere, and is for the somewhere's, in between, actually...

God Bless!

The way you see it is wrong. Your works have nothing to do with your justification before God. It is Christs works of merit that brings justification, received by faith alone. Synergistic salvation is heresy and denies the gospel of grace in Christ

MDC · Feb 15, 2017

EmSw said:
Do you believe one is saved by faith and grace and not by following the ten commandments? If so, you are an antinomian

And what makes you better, in that you get it and I don't? And you call me proud and arrogant?

I obey because Jesus told us to, not because I'm trying to merit anything. Did you know Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him? According to this, why would anyone desire to obey Him?

The saved obey because they love Him; they keep His commandments because He told them to do so.

Did Jesus merit God's favor by obeying? If so, why aren't you following Jesus' example?

If Jesus merited anything, why is it you are trying to make His merits your own? Why don't you obey the truth, do good, practice righteousness, and keep His commandments? If you love Him, you should be doing all these things, and not taking His merit and calling it your own.

Obedience is the Fruit of all the elect in Christ, that's an absolute! You obviously didn't read anything I said. It is only by the merits of Christ I'm saved and justified. Going in circles with you. Those who are of God hears Gods Words.. You hear NOT because you are not of God. What you teach is not of faith but of the flesh. Salvation is ALL of GRACE conditioned solely upon Christ Jesus. There are those "vessels fitted for destruction" (reprobate) as Romans 9:22 states. And unless the Lord be merciful to you and grant you repentance, you will find yourself to be a reprobate

EmSw · Feb 15, 2017

MDC said:
Obedience is the Fruit of all the elect in Christ, that's an absolute! You obviously didn't read anything I said. It is only by the merits of Christ I'm saved and justified. Going in circles with you. Those who are of God hears Gods Words.. You hear NOT because you are not of God. What you teach is not of faith but of the flesh. Salvation is ALL of GRACE conditioned solely upon Christ Jesus. There are those "vessels fitted for destruction" (reprobate) as Romans 9:22 states. And unless the Lord be merciful to you and grant you repentance, you will find yourself to be a reprobate

Sure, you are going in circles; Calvinists are famous for that.

Nah, I will not find myself a reprobate, although many here would love that. The Lord is merciful to all, although many here do not want it that way. The Lord grants repentance to all. How about that - I don't live by Reformed standards. You can't put your beliefs on me and expect them to come to pass. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

Your beliefs will not befall on me, nor any man, woman, or child. Anything you spew against me will be swallowed up by God, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. If you want to fight God over my soul, you must know, you will lose.

Now, did Jesus receive merit for the good works He did? From where did He get this merit of which you speak? Will you accuse Jesus of boasting of His merits?

Albion · Feb 15, 2017

EmSw said:
The Lord is merciful to all, although many here do not want it that way. The Lord grants repentance to all. How about that - I don't live by Reformed standards.

Or by the other half of Christendom, either, if we're to go by that comment.

Now, did Jesus receive merit for the good works He did? From where did He get this merit of which you speak?

Perhaps you misread what MDC wrote. It was this--

MDC said:
It is only by the merits of Christ I'm saved and justified.

Jesus didn't earn the favor of the Father by dying on the cross; we who have faith in him, however, are accounted righteous because of his act of redemption. Sounds similar, but there's a difference.

EmSw · Feb 15, 2017

Albion said:
Or by the other half of Christendom, either, if we're to go by that comment.

Perhaps you misread what MDC wrote. It was this--

Jesus didn't earn the favor of the Father by dying on the cross; we who have faith in him, however, are accounted righteous because of his act of redemption. Sounds similar, but there's a difference.

Then what merits are you talking about?

Kyle16 · Feb 17, 2017

DingDing said:
I won't argue with you other than to say that reprobation is not a biblical teaching. You won't find it in the bible, though some may think they see it in certain, isolated places, but it is nothing more than a misunderstanding.

Reprobation is all over the bible. It cannot be missed. When people read about reprobation many will refuse to believe it because they don't want their made up God they created in their own image to be like that.

Kyle16 · Feb 17, 2017

MDC said:
Obedience is the Fruit of all the elect in Christ, that's an absolute! You obviously didn't read anything I said. It is only by the merits of Christ I'm saved and justified. Going in circles with you. Those who are of God hears Gods Words.. You hear NOT because you are not of God. What you teach is not of faith but of the flesh. Salvation is ALL of GRACE conditioned solely upon Christ Jesus. There are those "vessels fitted for destruction" (reprobate) as Romans 9:22 states. And unless the Lord be merciful to you and grant you repentance, you will find yourself to be a reprobate

Agree

DingDing · Feb 17, 2017

Kyle16 said:
Here is how I understand the doctrine of reprobation: "Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice"
...
If your going to argue against reprobation don't argue using human logic PLEASE. Only use scripture. Thank you!

DingDing said:
I won't argue with you other than to say that reprobation is not a biblical teaching. You won't find it in the bible, though some may think they see it in certain, isolated places, but it is nothing more than a misunderstanding.

Kyle16 said:
Reprobation is all over the bible. It cannot be missed. ...

Okay, the ball is in your court. Prove that what you call reprobation (see your definition above) is "all over the bible" and "cannot be missed".

I would suggest pulling out around 10 to 12 passages scattered across the Old Testament, and about an equal number likewise scattered across the New. Prove that it is "all over" and "cannot be missed".

Kyle16 · Feb 23, 2017

DingDing said:
Okay, the ball is in your court. Prove that what you call reprobation (see your definition above) is "all over the bible" and "cannot be missed".

I would suggest pulling out around 10 to 12 passages scattered across the Old Testament, and about an equal number likewise scattered across the New. Prove that it is "all over" and "cannot be missed".

I am not sure if I can give you 12 verses. The bible is full of truths that you and I both probably believe that we could not support with 12 verse.

Jude speaks of some persons “who long ago were designated for the condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 4).

Paul has he spoke in Jude 4 also speaks in the same way in Rom. 9:17-22

“I have raise you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardnes the heart of whomever he wills… What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction (Rom. 9:17:22)

Some people would say God failed to choose all for salvation but they should be careful.

Paul says,

“The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” Rom. 11:7. And Peter says of those who reject the gospel, “they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do” 1 Peter 2:8

It also appears Jesus can thank God both for hiding the knowledge of salvation from some and for revealing it to others. “Jesus declared, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes’ yea, Father, for such was your gracious will” Matt. 11:25-26

We also must not forget, God’s justice results in HIS Glory. Paul says. “ What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction (Rom.9:22) Paul also points to the fact of such punishment on the vessels of wrath” serves to show the greatness of Gods mercy toward us” God does this “In order to make known riches of his Glory for the vessels of mercy (Rom.9:23)

Remember

Election to salvation is as a cause for rejoicing and praise to God, who is worthy of praise and receives all the credit for our salvation (Eph. 1:3-6; 1 Peter 1:1-3)

Reprobation brings God sorrow, not delight (Ezek 33:11) The blame for condemnation of sinnes is always put on the people or angels who rebel, NEVER on God himself (John 3:18-19;5:40) Reprobation lies in the sinner.

Another way to look at it is election = Gods grace Vs. reprobation is Gods justice.

Ezek.33:11, Rom.9:1-4

Credit:
The Bible
Systematic Theology By Wayne Grudem

DingDing · Feb 26, 2017

DingDing said:
Okay, the ball is in your court. Prove that what you call reprobation (see your definition above) is "all over the bible" and "cannot be missed".

I would suggest pulling out around 10 to 12 passages scattered across the Old Testament, and about an equal number likewise scattered across the New. Prove that it is "all over" and "cannot be missed".

Kyle16 said:
I am not sure if I can give you 12 verses. ...

So this then is an acknowledgement that you were wrong when you said the calvinist doctrine of reprobation is "all over the bible" and "cannot be missed". Perhaps the reason you can't find it "all over the bible" and that it "cannot be missed" is because it is not there. This is a pretty serious omission for a doctrine of such importance.

DingDing · Feb 26, 2017

Okay, I'll now try to address some of the rest of your post. Please consider my words carefully.

Kyle16 said:
...

Jude speaks of some persons “who long ago were designated for the condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 4).

Notice that this verse does not say that God made them do what they did (nor does this verse say that God did not try to reach out to such people). You are reading a lot into this verse which it does not actually say.

Kyle16 said:
Paul has he spoke in Jude 4 also speaks in the same way in Rom. 9:17-22

“I have raise you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardnes the heart of whomever he wills… What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction (Rom. 9:17:22)

Romans 9 is a passage which is difficult for many to understand (and I maintain calvinists have practically no understanding of it). It would take some serious time to try to get you to think about it differently. Paul's concern in Romans 9 is the plight of the nation of Israel (God's chosen people) in light of the church (God's new chosen people). What has happened? Has God abandoned Israel? There is too much here to address in just a few words. Romans 9 cannot be addressed adequately here.

Kyle16 said:
Some people would say God failed to choose all for salvation but they should be careful.

I think John in 1 John 2:2 speaks to this.

Kyle16 said:
Paul says, “The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” Rom. 11:7. And Peter says of those who reject the gospel, “they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do” 1 Peter 2:8

Do a study of the Greek in 1 Peter 2:8. It is ambiguous: were the disobedient destined to stumble (which is what I would claim), or were those who stumbled destined to disobedience (which is what calvinism claims)? It is like the statement, "Peter told Paul to get his book." So whose book did Paul get, his own or Peters? The text is ambiguous.

Kyle16 said:
It also appears Jesus can thank God both for hiding the knowledge of salvation from some and for revealing it to others. “Jesus declared, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes’ yea, Father, for such was your gracious will” Matt. 11:25-26

Again, you are reading much into this verse which is not there. Jesus says the Father has hidden something from the "wise" but not from "babes". This falls exactly into my corporate election thread. Jesus has described two groups: the "wise" and the "babes", but He has not stated that the Father unconditionally put some people in one group and others in the other. You are reading calvinist doctrines into this passage when there is no support for it. There is nothing here that says that people don't place themselves into one group or the other by their actions/choices. (But I believe there is much in scripture which supports the notion that men place themselves into one group or the other.)

Kyle16 said:
We also must not forget, God’s justice results in HIS Glory. Paul says. “ What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction (Rom.9:22) Paul also points to the fact of such punishment on the vessels of wrath” serves to show the greatness of Gods mercy toward us” God does this “In order to make known riches of his Glory for the vessels of mercy (Rom.9:23)

Again, the topic here is the choice of the church over Israel (And so has God abandoned Israel?)

Kyle16 said:

Remember

Click to expand...

Kyle16 said:
Election to salvation is as a cause for rejoicing and praise to God, who is worthy of praise and receives all the credit for our salvation (Eph. 1:3-6; 1 Peter 1:1-3)

Yes, those who are in Christ should rejoice.

Kyle16 said:
Reprobation brings God sorrow, not delight (Ezek 33:11) The blame for condemnation of sinnes is always put on the people or angels who rebel, NEVER on God himself (John 3:18-19;5:40) Reprobation lies in the sinner.
...
Ezek.33:11, Rom.9:1-4

If reprobation is true, then God brings sorrow upon Himself.

Kyle16 said:
Credit:
The Bible
Systematic Theology By Wayne Grudem

If you got all this from him, then he does not understand the bible. I would recommend not listening to him or buying/reading his stuff.

LoveofTruth · Mar 8, 2017

Kyle16 said:
Here is how I understand the doctrine of reprobation: "Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice"

This doctrine is defeated by infant salvation.

All infants who come into the world are saved by the grace of Christ until they hate the light because their deeds are evil and only then are they condemned as jesus said in John 3. Also they (infants and young children) are alive once without the law, but when the commandment comes to their understanding and sin revives, (or that is to say their sin nature revives) then they die, (spiritually) and must be born again (Romans 7:9).

So in the truest sense all infants are the elect at one time and then go astray. That defeats the election views of many, and all infants are like sheep who go astray and yet Christ died for the sin of the whole world so that defeats the Limited atonement view. And since they were once saved and Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, that defeats perseverance of the saints view of many.

Infant salvation is the key that none seem to talk about. Will not the God of all the universe do what is right? yes.

of such ( infants) is the kingdom of God, and their angels do always behold the Father in heaven. Jesus blessed the infants.

MDC · Mar 8, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
This doctrine is defeated by infant salvation.

All infants who come into the world are saved by the grace of Christ until they hate the light because their deeds are evil and only then are they condemned as jesus said in John 3. Also they (infants and young children) are alive once without the law, but when the commandment comes to their understanding and sin revives, (or that is to say their sin nature revives) then they die, (spiritually) and must be born again (Romans 7:9).

So in the truest sense all infants are the elect at one time and then go astray. That defeats the election views of many, and all infants are like sheep who go astray and yet Christ died for the sin of the whole world so that defeats the Limited atonement view. And since they were once saved and Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, that defeats perseverance of the saints view of many.

Infant salvation is the key that none seem to talk about. Will not the God of all the universe do what is right? yes.

of such ( infants) is the kingdom of God, and their angels do always behold the Father in heaven. Jesus blessed the infants.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5. "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Psalm 58:3. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.. Therefore, as through one mans offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation... For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners.. And it is by the obedience of ONE (Christ Jesus), many shall be made righteous.. even so GRACE might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5. Where in scripture does it teach infants are saved by the grace of Christ until they hate the light? Everything you commented on has NO truth to it. It seems more of an emotional response based on no scriptural facts

sdowney717 · Mar 9, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
This doctrine is defeated by infant salvation.

All infants who come into the world are saved by the grace of Christ until they hate the light because their deeds are evil and only then are they condemned as jesus said in John 3. Also they (infants and young children) are alive once without the law, but when the commandment comes to their understanding and sin revives, (or that is to say their sin nature revives) then they die, (spiritually) and must be born again (Romans 7:9).

So in the truest sense all infants are the elect at one time and then go astray. That defeats the election views of many, and all infants are like sheep who go astray and yet Christ died for the sin of the whole world so that defeats the Limited atonement view. And since they were once saved and Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, that defeats perseverance of the saints view of many.

Infant salvation is the key that none seem to talk about. Will not the God of all the universe do what is right? yes.

of such ( infants) is the kingdom of God, and their angels do always behold the Father in heaven. Jesus blessed the infants.

No this does not defeat election.
All infants are saved + young children, so they were all who died elect to salvation.
God who determined times and seasons determined the days of their life.

v16, before our formation in the womb, God had determined all of your days, beforehand.

Psalm 139:14-17New King James Version (NKJV)
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!

Footnotes:

Marvin Knox · Mar 9, 2017

EmSw said:
Do you believe one is saved by faith and grace and not by following the ten commandments? If so, you are an antinomian

Shame on you. That is not what makes an antinomian and you know it.

Antinomianism teaches that a believer is free to disobey the laws of God and men without consequence because they are now justified before God through faith in Jesus Christ.

There is a world of difference between that heresy and the correct scriptural teaching that one is not justified before God by keeping those laws.

I have no doubt that there are those who subscribe to the doctrines of grace who are also antinomian.

But subscribing to the doctrines of grace does not make one an antinomian

DingDing · Mar 9, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
...
I have no doubt that there are those who subscribe to the doctrines of grace who are also antinomian.

Agreed.

Marvin Knox said:
But subscribing to the doctrines of grace does not make one an antinomian

It either makes one into an antinomian (a lawless person) or it makes one into a robot (a person without freedom of choice). Not a good choice either way.

And by the way, the phrase "doctrines of grace" is just a sweet tombstone above an otherwise stinking corpse.

Marvin Knox · Mar 9, 2017

DingDing said:
It either makes one into an antinomian (a lawless person) .................

Believing that one is saved by grace apart from the works of the law does not make one into an antinomian.

DingDing said:
.........................or it makes one into a robot (a person without freedom of choice).

Believing in salvation by grace apart from the works of the law does not make one into a robot.

That makes no sense at all.

DingDing said:
Not a good choice either way.

I agree.

That's why both concepts were rejected and countered by statements in the Westminster Confession of Faith and other doctrinal statements concerning Reformed theology.

DingDing said:
And by the way, the phrase "doctrines of grace" is just a sweet tombstone above an otherwise stinking corpse.

Nice!

I've never heard the N.T. writings referred to in that way before.

I became sick when I started reading about the Doctrine of Reprobation. Thoughts on it?

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