I am trying to be a Pastor of a Baptist church, and have a problem with a doctrine

acorn_777 · Feb 25, 2009

Phileoeklogos said:
Jesus said He never knew them, how did He not know them, was He unaware of them, how in His perfect knowledge did He not know them?

The Lord lead me to offer pastoring the church. I became a member, was then baptized with the baptist. Supposedly, I have to go up to the front of the church, and say I have a call to preach; then the church lets me preach a sermon, and they decide whether I have the calling.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 25, 2009

acorn_777 said:
The Lord lead me to offer pastoring the church. I became a member, was then baptized with the baptist. Supposedly, I have to go up to the front of the church, and say I have a call to preach; then the church lets me preach a sermon, and they decide whether I have the calling.

It takes much more than being baptized and preaching a sermon to be a pastor.

Phileoeklogos · Feb 25, 2009

acorn_777 said:
The Lord lead me to offer pastoring the church. I became a member, was then baptized with the baptist. Supposedly, I have to go up to the front of the church, and say I have a call to preach; then the church lets me preach a sermon, and they decide whether I have the calling.

So you weren't baptized prior to joining this church? How long have you been a Christian and what kind of church background do you come from?

Justaman0000 · Feb 25, 2009

Jesus made it clear that only those who stay faithful till the end are saved. If it were impossible to lose faith Jesus would never have warned about it. For you are saved by Grace through faith.

eldermike · Feb 25, 2009

Opps, sorry about the edit thing, I hit the wrong button.

Jesus told us how we would remain faithful.

acorn_777 · Feb 25, 2009

Phileoeklogos said:
So you weren't baptized prior to joining this church? How long have you been a Christian and what kind of church background do you come from?

Yes. Church of God in 2005. First time as an adult. I was a manager for a retail, multi million dollar finance company when I started my journey with God in the end of 2004. I broke down one night, and asked God to tell me what He wanted me to do. The next morning, I heard a voice that said, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. All things are through me. You we leave your job today. It is time to do my work.

I left my position, and was offered a step down position. God told me to go to a state with a past employer after that, instead of managing a store that was being offered to me. I went to that state. The company folded two months later, and now, is completely out of business.

I began to read the Bible, on my own, and when God would give me random scripture to read during a situation. I was speaking to some non believers, and started posting on their website. The things that threw at me caused me to start a process of the last 4 years of research of the God that I live by.

I have since read the KJV, NIV, NKJV, Message, and have researched the origins and history of most other religions. Also, keeping discussion with these non believers online. I have wrote a journal of my life since I started with God, and have wrote various other things.

I have studied the history of Christianity, Rome, United States, as well as others. I have talked about God in most places I work. I have the taught Experiencing God course, at the same church.

I am not into church doctrine, and I know the Baptists believe in once saved doctrine. God told me to offer to pastor this church for nothing. I offered that, and have been doing my part as far as becoming a member, being baptized, and now having to go to the front to say I have been called to preach.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

acorn_777 · Feb 27, 2009

Thanks for all the responses everyone. This thread is my point though. I see many verses explaining OSAS, and many explaining the opposite. This same topic is the catalyst for many believers renouncing God. It's sad. All I know is what is said in the Bible, and it's mixed up. One verse will speak of watching and waiting, enduring till the end, the mark of the beast, and the 'I know you not verse' while others speak of eternal bliss with Jesus.

I too find it hard to believe that once the Holy Spirit comes to you, one could reject God; but they are out there, and claim to have been devout Christians. Whether their hearts were really there or not is not for me to judge, or anyone else. Love is the greatest commandment, even those in sin.

The OSAS logic, though, is baffling to those trying to understand, and look to God in the realm of unbelief.

In Revelations, it talks about the first death and the second death, the book of life, and the Lamb's book of life. We will all be judged. Jesus promised eternal life if we believed in Him, as if we did, we believed in the Father. Jesus said He had the keys to hell and death.

But, another point that is contending with me is this. Judas. Judas was a disciple of Christ. Yes, by his actions, one could say he may not have believed in Him, causing Satan to enter Him; yet OSAS. Right? or Not?

JacobHall86 · Feb 27, 2009

Judas was not elect.

acorn_777 · Feb 27, 2009

JacobHall86 said:
Judas was not elect.

A man, not of Christianity, tried to use Jesus's power's over in the NT and the man's demon he was using it on, jumped onto him. This is Biblical evidence that not just anyone can cast out demons in Jesus's name. The demon said, Jesus I know, Peter I know, but you I do not know.

So, then I go back to my verse in the OP. The man supposedly cast demons in his name,but Jesus says, I know you not. Hence, a person can 'be saved' casting demons from people, surpassing the authority of a demon, who which has no authority, to a person genuine in faith of Christ. But, that same person of this faith, able to cast demons, is 'not known by Christ'.

How is that if OSAS stands as true teaching?

eldermike · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
A man, not of Christianity, tried to use Jesus's power's over in the NT and the man's demon he was using it on, jumped onto him. This is Biblical evidence that not just anyone can cast out demons in Jesus's name. The demon said, Jesus I know, Peter I know, but you I do not know.

So, then I go back to my verse in the OP. The man supposedly cast demons in his name,but Jesus says, I know you not. Hence, a person can 'be saved' casting demons from people, surpassing the authority of a demon, who which has no authority, to a person genuine in faith of Christ. But, that same person of this faith, able to cast demons, is 'not known by Christ'.

How is that if OSAS stands as true teaching?

This is how we get tossed from every wave. One verse leads you one way another takes you another way. We understand certain truths by looking at the complete bible. These things are doctrines, they begin with a foundation of knowledge. God's Nature, mans nature, the depth and damage of sin, God's ways, His promises.........then we read scripture and we are no longer tossed around by a hard passage.

You can't support God as weak, He's not weak. But in fact if he can't keep me after He saved me, he's not to strong.
You can't support sin as a light subject, it's total in it's destructive nature, apart from God drawing me to him I am toast. Left to my own devices I am toast.
You can't remove His promises, He said I came to save what was lost.

Note: One of the most powerful aspects of God's nature is He loves His work. You are one of His works. If God loves the smoke coming from the mountain and it's His doing then He's capable of keeping you saved.
reference: Pslams 104

Phileoeklogos · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
A man, not of Christianity, tried to use Jesus's power's over in the NT and the man's demon he was using it on, jumped onto him. This is Biblical evidence that not just anyone can cast out demons in Jesus's name. The demon said, Jesus I know, Peter I know, but you I do not know.

So, then I go back to my verse in the OP. The man supposedly cast demons in his name,but Jesus says, I know you not. Hence, a person can 'be saved' casting demons from people, surpassing the authority of a demon, who which has no authority, to a person genuine in faith of Christ. But, that same person of this faith, able to cast demons, is 'not known by Christ'.

How is that if OSAS stands as true teaching?

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Let's take a look at the verses, 7:21

1. Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord', will enter, but one who does the will of the Father.,

Many people make the claim to know Christ, many said a prayer, walked an aisle, showed up at church one sunday, and that was the end of it, they were "trying" Jesus out, Some say they know Jesus, and say they know Buddha and Allah and etc, Many claim to know Jesus, but the Jesus they know is a false Jesus, people make alot of claims, but does Christ know them?

2. ' but one who does the will of the Father'
What is the will of the Father? Believing in the Son.

7:22

1. "On that day" Judgement Day,

2. "Many will say" Many will make the claim to know Christ, and how are they attempting to justify themselves before Him, .... by their works, are works the will of the Father? Did these people really cast out demons, we don't really know, people claim alot of things, I heard a guy on a radio talk show once, that claimed he had cast out a demon in Jesus name, and that man was not a christian, did he really cast one out, who knows, and no one will be justified by what they do.

7:23

1. "I never knew you" not I used to know you, or I knew you for a little while, but I never knew you. These people have never been His people, they may have been wolves in sheeps clothing, but they have never been His sheep. Does Jesus know His sheep? Is He a forgetful Shepherd,Does He lose sheep? Does He always do the Father's will?, what is the Father's will for Jesus to do for all the ones the Father gives Him. Raise them on the last day. What does it mean to be "known" by Christ.

2. " workers of lawlessness " What is sin, what does Christ's blood wash away, how much sin does Christ's blood wash away, at what point does that blood lose it's power and can no longer cleanse.

What kind of Savior is Jesus, Does God save people knowing in His perfect knowledge of all things that they will end up in Hell, what kind of salvation is that, Does the Holy Spirit indwell those that will populate Hell. It's sad to say but believing that God saved me, but it's up to me to keep myself saved, is nothing but salvation by works, that not trusting Christ.

These verses have nothing to do with being saved and then lost.

spiersdodgerblue · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
Yes. Church of God in 2005. First time as an adult. I was a manager for a retail, multi million dollar finance company when I started my journey with God in the end of 2004. I broke down one night, and asked God to tell me what He wanted me to do. The next morning, I heard a voice that said, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. All things are through me. You we leave your job today. It is time to do my work.

I left my position, and was offered a step down position. God told me to go to a state with a past employer after that, instead of managing a store that was being offered to me. I went to that state. The company folded two months later, and now, is completely out of business.

I began to read the Bible, on my own, and when God would give me random scripture to read during a situation. I was speaking to some non believers, and started posting on their website. The things that threw at me caused me to start a process of the last 4 years of research of the God that I live by.

I have since read the KJV, NIV, NKJV, Message, and have researched the origins and history of most other religions. Also, keeping discussion with these non believers online. I have wrote a journal of my life since I started with God, and have wrote various other things.

I have studied the history of Christianity, Rome, United States, as well as others. I have talked about God in most places I work. I have the taught Experiencing God course, at the same church.

I am not into church doctrine, and I know the Baptists believe in once saved doctrine. God told me to offer to pastor this church for nothing. I offered that, and have been doing my part as far as becoming a member, being baptized, and now having to go to the front to say I have been called to preach.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Forgive me if I have missed something......but where is the calling from God to lead His people????? I am a member of a SBC and I'm just not reading it here in any of this thread.

Wizzer · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
Once saved always saved.

Can someone give me Biblical support of this?

I am sure that most here can give "biblical support" for the OSAS doctrine, but the question is would such "support" be accurate and complete? I would say that such "support" would not be accurate. Perhaps you need to also ask of those who believe otherwise.

Wizzer · Feb 27, 2009

DeaconDean said:
Now, before we get into this doctrine, this is a controversal doctrine here, I want to ask you to which particular Baptist affiliation does your church belong to?

acorn_777 said:
Southern Baptist

Ouch!!! That would be like someone claiming they wanted to become a catholic priest while at the same time questioning the office and authority of the pope. OSAS is probably the most cherished doctrine of the SBC. And if you openly reject this doctrine, they will for sure openly reject you as a pastor.

Wizzer · Feb 27, 2009

eldermike said:
I gave up with the scripture debate on this issue, God gave us a brain so I just use it. Other than that I tell em to read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.
...

I read that book and I though it was the very worst on the topic I had ever read. If you want to read a real book on the subject, try reading Robert Shank's Life in the Son. He was a Baptist minister until he published this book, then he was cast out like an infidel.

If God gave you a brain, then you should be willing to examine both sides of the argument. Perhaps there is more to this discussion than most of you have been exposed.

Wizzer · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
Thanks for all the responses everyone. This thread is my point though. I see many verses explaining OSAS, and many explaining the opposite. This same topic is the catalyst for many believers renouncing God. It's sad. All I know is what is said in the Bible, and it's mixed up. One verse will speak of watching and waiting, enduring till the end, the mark of the beast, and the 'I know you not verse' while others speak of eternal bliss with Jesus.
...

Well, I too was in an SBC (about 25 years ago) and they were, oh, so into their OSAS doctrine. They just loved it. It was mentioned probably every other service (or so it seemed). And when they discussed scripture, oh, they just loved their "eternal security" passages. The pastor would spend lots of time discussing the virtues of these passages. But then there were those "other" passages: the one which they avoided like the plague; the ones they rushed through as if to avoid an embarrassing entanglement, or contrived elaborate explanations for. At least you, acorn_777, seem to recognize that there are these two seemingly opposing sets of passages. Your quest now, if you accept it, is to reconcile these two apparently contradictory sets of passages. As someone suggested, read Stanleys book, and then take my advice and read Shanks. Stanley does little more than make emotional appeals. Shank, on the other hand, makes an honest effort to handle both sets in a scholarly and biblical fashion, which is far, far, more than Stanley ever dreamt of doing.

Johnny Dalmas · Feb 27, 2009

acorn_777 said:
Once saved always saved.

Can someone give me Biblical support of this?

I'm really not all that sure what the "doctrine" of "Once Saved Always Saved" is supposed to be.

Is it cheap grace, or is it perseverance of the saints?

I think it is pretty clear in scripture that if you get to the point in your walk with Christ that you are one of his "sheep," then you are as secure in your salvation as would be possible. Jesus said that he would lose none of his sheep. None. That if his sheep go astray, Christ himself will go to the ends of the earth to bring that sheep back to the fold.

On the other hand there are the verses where Jesus said to those who cried, "Have we not done all these works in your name" and Jesus told them he never knew them.

The operative word there is NEVER.

οὐδέποτε
oudepote
oo-dep'-ot-eh
From G3761 and G4218; not even at any time, that is, never at all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.

If you wander and are never brought back to the fold, then you were never a sheep.

If you are one of Christ's sheep and you wander, Christ himself will carry you back to the fold. You will not be lost. You have Christ's word on that.

Can you do better than that?

acorn_777 · Feb 28, 2009

spiersdodgerblue said:
Forgive me if I have missed something......but where is the calling from God to lead His people????? I am a member of a SBC and I'm just not reading it here in any of this thread.

All I have to say to you is, wow. Thank You. You encouraged me so much. I made over 40 dollar an hr, which is alot around here, and left my job, I lost my family, I lost anything and everything for that testimony. A testimony, that up until I posted it here, a handful of people knew. I am not a pastor yet because of a few reasons. 1-I still had over 30k in credit card debt and a family to take care of, so I still had to at least stay employed. 2-My wife and I grew apart, leading to divorce, and the pastor of the CoG we attended, saying unless our marriage was sound, he couldn't 'lift' me to be a pastor. I didn't grow up in church, let alone Southern Baptist.

I re-married a woman that has been raped, beaten, abused as a child, left to die twice by a man, and has 4kids. She has been going to this church since she was 9, and I see why. The people there are excellent. I was separated for almost 3yrs when we met. Most of my friends and some family have counted me as loony, as they are not religious; even some asking me to go get a cat scan, to see if I have brain tumors. I don't.

The Lord called me. That's all I need to survive. I will admit, I have lived the life of Jonah for the last 2-3 yrs, yet I am listening now, waiting. Not running away, to be swallowed up by this world. The church I attend has been standing since 1850, and has no pastor, not having one for some time now.

God told me to volunteer to pastor the church, when I was teaching the Experimenting God course there. I did as I was told, as I'm tired of living the life of Jonah. I expect nothing, and it seems it will be nothing. But..I still haven't finished my part.

Do you know how hard it was for me to get re-baptized? Hard. Because the first time, I was baptized because Jesus Christ told me too. The next time, because a pastor told me that to become a member of the Baptist, it had to be through baptism. I felt as though I was doing it for man, and not God. But, I quickly felt better, as I realize that God already knew I would have to do that.

Maybe, spiersdodgerblue, it has nothing to do with me being a preacher there. Maybe God just wanted to see if I would listen to Him, and maybe He wanted to see if the people at the church would grab ahold and say, God sent us someone to minister, as He always has. There are members there that have been members for 60yrs. Yes, they are around 78-80, and have attended church there their whole life; also they are friends with my wife. They tell stories of how they didn't have a pastor one Sunday, and they were praying outside the church, asking God to send them a pastor. All of a sudden, here comes a man on a 'buggy', a buggy, .. saying God told him to come here and preach

Seems like the God of that church hasn't changed, but now they have to approve a pastor's 'calling' through a committee.

Thank You, Phil and others for your comments and help, it truly helped me. I understand that God's child is always that, and nothing could separate Him from us. Yet, I have another understanding, and if it go against the SBS, then so be it. That understanding is that though God will never leave, nor forsake us; we can depart from Him in sin, and He will always come searching for us as 1 sheep lost in His pack, and rejoice when we are brought back home.

Spiersdodgerblue, Your comment caused me not to sleep much last night. It is sad. I hope you look more into people in the future, than you did me. God Bless.

eldermike · Feb 28, 2009

Wizzer said:
I read that book and I though it was the very worst on the topic I had ever read. If you want to read a real book on the subject, try reading Robert Shank's Life in the Son. He was a Baptist minister until he published this book, then he was cast out like an infidel.

If God gave you a brain, then you should be willing to examine both sides of the argument. Perhaps there is more to this discussion than most of you have been exposed.

I have read that book, I posted the one that came to mind.
I have examined all sides of this issue.

HolyWarrior77 · Feb 28, 2009

2 Peter 1:1-14 said:
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

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