I am starting to hate free will

[VCR-2000]

I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

 

[Sabertooth]

I am starting to hate free will...

You are not allowed to...!

 

[subtlecollision]

One thing I want to say is... A lot of people like to talk about free will, but the words "free will" aren't anywhere in the Bible. I don't believe in free will. So if that is bothering you, you may want to reconsider if there is any proof it actually exists.

Free will isn't an important concept in Christianity. The opposite of free will is the sovereignty of God, which is a major theme in the Bible. Maybe explore that a bit more?

 

[Sabertooth]

One thing I want to say is... A lot of people like to talk about free will, but the words "free will" aren't anywhere in the Bible. I don't believe in free will. So if that is bothering you, you may want to reconsider if there is any proof it actually exists.

Free will isn't an important concept in Christianity. The opposite of free will is the sovereignty of God, which is a major theme in the Bible. Maybe explore that a bit more?

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you

life and death,
blessing and cursing;​

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;..." Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord,
choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,

whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.​

But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15 NKJV

 

[ivy may]

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you

life and death,
blessing and cursing;​

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;..." Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord,
choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,

whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.​

But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15 NKJV

AMEN brother!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

Being accountable for ones actions is the very core of human existence. Jesus Christ of Nazareth gave us a Helper, His Holy Spirit , to guild us through our life decisions. Without Him, it is like being tossed to and frow by the wind never knowing where you will land. Find your First Love and get grounded in Him.
Blessings.

 

[Sir Joseph]

VCR-2000, a person will always have unanswered questions or objectionable concerns with any religion, with Christianity being no exception. Once a skeptic receives a solution to one troubling concept though, he'll inevitably move on to others. That doesn't mean one shouldn't pursue truth in all matters and try to understand their faith as well as possible, but I'd suggest that a person's choice of faith cannot possibly rely upon a complete understanding of all doctrines or scriptural passages. The best Christian example of this is the essential doctrine of the trinity Godhead. Like the relationship of time, space, and matter, we know they each exist but don't really understand it.

Free will versus predestination is a concept that I, as a life long Christian, still don't understand, even though I've read sound explanations for it. I don't however base my faith's foundation upon understanding everything. I base it upon a preponderance of evidence concerning scientific, archaeological, historical, prophetic, and Biblical manuscript authority material. And with years of study, I've found that such a wide range of evidence far outweighs the unanswered concerns or objectionable issues.

In short, if you're truly a seeker of God and the correct faith to connect with him, I'd suggest you move on from the free will issue Yes, ignore it as one of the stumbling blocks and move on to other apologetic issues that defend the faith. In the time you spend or waste trying to resolve a very difficult issue that doesn't really prove anything anyway, you could learn about 10 other simpler issues that do prove something. When you have hundreds of leading indicators on one side and a dozen or less on the other, logic will dictate the prudent choice - if your heart is open to it.

 

[Unqualified]

Freedom to choose. Freedom from the consequences of sin and the law of sin and death. Freedom to choose God and righteousness, to love or not, to sin or not.

predestination is true in its place. We have the to choose good or bad as evidenced by the world being in rebellion to God.

I have the righteousness of Christ and a measure of my own righteousness in that I have not gone back to my old sins.

 

[VCR-2000]

I can relate to the rich man that Jesus told the parable in Mark 10:17-31. Jesus instructed him flat-out to sell everything he had and the man soured, and the implication that if he didn't he would be punished for the rest of eternity. Not that giving to the poor isn't a good thing, it is one thing to want to give up or abstain from a part of your assets you earned, but giving up everything sounds like a boring life, God could've said that you can both enjoy and worship to him while enjoying your other areas of life, and that it isn't necessarily incompatible.

My skepticism is that orthodox traditional Christianity must be a religion or belief only for purely ascetic monks, just wishing to be thanking in praise to somebody for the rest of eternity for the sake of praising.

 

[Sabertooth]

Jesus instructed him flat-out to sell everything he had and the man soured, and the implication that if he didn't he would be punished for the rest of eternity.

In that man's case, Jesus was saying that his stuff was holding him back. God does not say that to every person of means. In fact, God makes some people famously wealthy when it suits His purposes to do so.

JC Penney was giving away 90% of his income and still had a mansion, a butler and all of the trappings of wealth!

 

[drich0150]

I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

Good news then! As nothing in the Bible nor did anyone in the Bible ever teach the doctrine of free will! This was a doctrine adopted by the church several hundred years after Christ. In fact Christ and the apostle Paul said our will was not free at all as we were all born slaves to sin. Paul in romans 7 goes into much depth about being bound to this body who is a slave to sin causing him (the spiritual side of him) to be involved in sin when his spiritual side wants no part of it.

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

great point in the case of no free choice.
As our choice is not free we have only a binary choice A serve God and Heaven or B serve satan and hell. True free will would be to come up with your own option like option C. Neither serve God nor satan.
That said, being given our binary choice of God or satan means we have been given a true choice to make.

 

[VCR-2000]

Good news then! As nothing in the Bible nor did anyone in the Bible ever teach the doctrine of free will! This was a doctrine adopted by the church several hundred years after Christ. In fact Christ and the apostle Paul said our will was not free at all as we were all born slaves to sin. Paul in romans 7 goes into much depth about being bound to this body who is a slave to sin causing him (the spiritual side of him) to be involved in sin when his spiritual side wants no part of it.


great point in the case of no free choice.
As our choice is not free we have only a binary choice A serve God and Heaven or B serve satan and hell. True free will would be to come up with your own option like option C. Neither serve God nor satan.
That said, being given our binary choice of God or satan means we have been given a true choice to make.

I guess that is some good news. If we are all born slaves to sin, then on the other end we are still slaves. We are always slaves to something then.

 

[Sabertooth]

We are always slaves to something then.

Gotta Serve Somebody, Bob Dylan (1979)​

 

[drich0150]

I guess that is some good news. If we are all born slaves to sin, then on the other end we are still slaves. We are always slaves to something then.

yes.
Slaves to god or slaves to satan. That said know slaves can be set free even made sons as per the biblical examples given via, Joseph and Jacob/Israel.

 

[TedT]

God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

It is temporary alright but it is not a testing ground but a prison with a rehab centre in it for sinners.

In Rev 12:4-9 we learn that Satan flung some people called stars to the earth and then Michel and his army flung Satan and his demon army to the earth. We know these sinners are sown into the world of mankind: the sinful people of the kingdom sown here by Christ and the people of the evil one sown here by the devil, Matt 13:36-39, with verses like 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into Tartarus, [the lowest part of Sheol, in the earth] placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment...
We know that these demons who have lives on earth return to Sheol upon their deaths from Psalm 9:17.

These things all support this place, the Earth, to be a prison, some inmates condemned already and others here to be rehabilitated: John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has ALREADY been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. with Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

The sinful good seed will be rehabilitated and the reprobate weeds will be gathered and burnt, opening the way for the promised heavenly marriage to be fulfilled.

 

[VCR-2000]

It's like a double-edged sword. It's depressing that we aren't really free and our freedom is only an illusion.

 

[Sabertooth]

It's depressing that we aren't really free and our freedom is only an illusion.

It is a constrained freedom, but it is enough to reveal our hearts.

 

[NinjaPirate777]

Some Christianity has made Jesus into a boyfriend like figure and focused on feeling good.

The fact is Jesus told off sinners who did not repent. He took a hard line against those who knew better but were false teachers. In the Bible men and women are created to compliment each other as one in marriage. I see this time and time again with married couples where the man loves his wife and the wife respects her man. He is usually very successful and she is the wind beneath his wings.

If you are having trouble focus on God and virtue. Doing what is right is usually what is good for you in the long term. Most of us fall short of the ideal but we strive to meet it. Others will criticize Christians for not always being perfect. The answer to that is we have a goal we strive to meet of being like Jesus. The others have no goal. If you aim high and miss, it is better than aiming low and hitting your target.

 

[Lost Witness]

I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

ADAM was Created in GODS image, and he sinned and we were created in Adams image and inherited his sin, GOD had nothing to do with any of it.

 

[NinjaPirate777]

ADAM was Created in GODS image, and he sinned and we were created in Adams image and inherited his sin, GOD had nothing to do with any of it.

God has everything to do with everything. Either God is nothing or He is everything. That said, both us and our father Adam are created in God's image. It is up to us to decide whether to act like divinely created beings with a soul or like animals.