I am not ashamed of the gospel...

[renniks]

O, brother renniks! We will be judged by our works on judgment day!!! Open your eyes!

Of course we will.

Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more” (Heb 10:17; cf. Jer 31:34)

No Christian will be judged to decide his eternal destiny... as promised in John 5:24: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

This is a long subject that I'm not getting into, but
each person will reap what he or she sowed in this life. Believers will be judged according to their works to determine the degree of eternal reward.

 

[renniks]

Our salvation is not dependent on how much more we can get God to love us. That's ridiculous thinking!

Then why do you think that way? You think if you do more good stuff God will keep you saved.

 

[renniks]

Faith alone never saved anybody!

Tell that to Paul.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[New Testament Christian]

No God alone saves. Faith is a condition for salvation.

Yes only God has the power to save.

Can you be saved without faith?

You know the answer to that!

ITS THE EXACT SAME WITH ALL, THE CONDITIONS IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, RENNIKS!

Your starting to understand!

Faith does not save alone because we ultimately God saves us.

Repentance cannot save on its own because ultimately God saves us.

Confession cannot save on it's own because God saves us

Baptism cannot save us on it's own because God saves us!!!

But,

What if we don't have faith? God will not save us

What if we don't repent? God will not save us

What if we don't confess our faith? God will,not save us

What if we won't get baptized for the forgiveness of our sins? God will not save us!

Understand? Obeying Gods commandments doesn't earn our salvation.

We are meeting His conditions in His gospel. That's called OBEDIENCE

If we obey Him, He will save us!

Obedience is not boastful works because you are not saving yourself when you,

Have faith, repent of your sins, confess your faith in Christ, be obdient to Gods wishes and get baptized for the remission of your sins.

These works are not earning anything. They are simply obeying Gods commands out of love and a desire for Him to save you.

Epheasians 2:8-9

Not of works lest any man should boast...

Paul is teaching about those who think they can earn their salvation on their own. These works cannot save!

But obedient works by humbling yourself and realizing I need God to save me is the opposite kind of works Paul is teaching about in Epheasians 2:8-9.

Look at verse 10,

For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

No one boasts about the work of repentance.

You know why? Because a person who repentance realizes their dependency on God for salvation. That's humility not pride!

The same is true of Faith, Do you go around boasting, "Hey I saved myself through my belief! I did it all myself"

Of course not! Belief is not arrogance its realizing you need God to save you.

Why do people do the work of confessing their faith in Jesus? Same reason, they humbly understand God desires them to obey Him so they DO AS HE DESIRES.

Do you think people go around boasting, "I saved myself by confessing I believe that Jesus is the Son of God"

This whole lie from false doctrines is ridiculous that if we do obedient works we are full of pride trying to save ourselves without God. No one thinks like this!

God desires we be baptized in water. Why?

I have no idea why God chose water. He could of desired all kinds of different ways to save us.

All I know is what the Bible says. God wants us to do an obedient act out of love for Him. He tells us to be baptized. And
He, He, He, will save us!

I've never met a Christian in my life that believes water baptism is a condition in Jesus gospel to be saved,

Goes around boasting that they saved themselves by getting immersed in water!!!
Never!

That's ridiculous deceitful lies false teaches and their fictitious stories, tell their members to twist their minds into thinking all works = meritorious salvation

Obeying the gospel simply meets Gods conditions that He laid out for us.

He expects us to believe and obey Him through love.

When we believe His gospel and obey it out if love for
Him. HE SAVES US. It's that simple.

Paul taught saving faith did have works of love.
Paul said this kind of faith was the only faith that avails.

Avails means to be of value.

Therefore belief alone with no obedient love is of no value!

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE.

You can understand you do have to do something to be saved. You must believe.

You understand that your faith does not merit your salvation

It's the same with obedience to the gospel

It does not earn you salvation to do works that God has commanded you to do.

Mark 16:15-16.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Tell that to Paul.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

What kind of faith is Paul teaching here that saves?

Does Paul say Faith in this verse?

Or, does Paul say Faith alone?

Paul doesn't mention repentance here. So, that must mean God doesn't require us to repent right?

Quit using verses that do not explain all that is included with Biblical faith. I know Paul does not mean belief only. Remember James 2:19? Here Paul teaches the faith he believes is of value to us, Galatians 5:6.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Why would you think God only has one good news for mankind throughout the Bible?

For example, the good news that God told Nathan to relay to David, the gospel of the kingdom, in 2 Samuel 7

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Do you think this is good news to David, and to Israel? Is this a gospel?

What good news saves us today? The gospel of Jesus Christ.

There is no distinction between "the gospel of the kingdom " and the "gospel of grace " they are one in the same.

Paul taught all men the gospel!

Acts 20:20-21
How I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, TESTIFYING TO JEWS AND ALSO TO GREEKS, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

AND NOW, I GO BOUND IN THE SPIRIT TO JERUSALEM, NOT KNOWING THE THINGS THAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME THERE

Woop's !!!! "Paul ! !! , You're not supposed to be preaching to Jews and Greeks and then go to Jerusalem and teach more jews!!!" "According to the two gospels doctrine, you are supposed to go to the Jews first then the Holy Spirit gives you a new gospel and you are only to preach this second gospel to gentiles only. And never go back to teaching the "gospel of grace" to the Jews! "

But here you are going to Jews and Greeks at the same time, then going back to teach the gospel to more Jews!"

Guojing you better tell Paul he isn't following the teachings of your New Creation churches two gospels gospel.

 

[renniks]

Yes only God has the power to save.

Can you be saved without faith?

You know the answer to that!

ITS THE EXACT SAME WITH ALL, THE CONDITIONS IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, RENNIKS!

Your starting to understand!

I already understood. And works are still not included in salvation. They are a result of salvation.

 

[New Testament Christian]

I already understood. And works are still not included in salvation. They are a result of salvation.

You continue to deny a Biblical fact. Faith is a work, John 6:28-29, 1John 3:23-24.

God does not do the believing for you.

You must do the believing. Its your work. You are working the works of God when you believe in Him.

Works are part of salvation,

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

No works no acceptance with God.

 

[renniks]

You continue to deny a Biblical fact. Faith is a work, John 6:28-29, 1John 3:23-24.

God does not do the believing for you.

You must do the believing. Its your work. You are working the works of God when you believe in Him.

Works are part of salvation,

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

No works no acceptance with God.

Well that's a common misunderstanding of the passage in John, usually by Calvinists.
Faith is being convinced or persuaded that something is true.
Here's the irony of John 6, the Jews also were looking to gain God's favor by works.
Jesus' audience were unbelieving legalists and they are confused. They think He is saying that if they do the right works, they will earn everlasting life. They ask, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"

Jesus’ response is not what they expected: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent” (John 6:29).

This is a obvious statement that the only condition for everlasting life is faith in Christ. Not works which we may do, whether before or after salvation.

The Jews of Jesus’ day believed in works salvation. They thought that good Jews got into the kingdom (Luke 18:9-14; Acts 15:1; Gal 1:6-9)

Why was it difficult for them to accept the message? Because they believed they had to earn it!

It is most likely that Jesus is using the word work ironically.

It's like if you asked me what work I wanted you to do as my guest for dinner and I said, "Your job is to sit down and eat."
Because the struggle here is to accept that you can not do anything for salvation except to accept that it's free. People want to earn everything. They don't want to accept charity. It hurts our pride to do so. But that's the only " work" required. To lay aside ourselves and our need to earn everything we are given.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Well that's a common misunderstanding of the passage in John, usually by Calvinists.
Faith is being convinced or persuaded that something is true.
Here's the irony of John 6, the Jews also were looking to gain God's favor by works.
Jesus' audience were unbelieving legalists and they are confused. They think He is saying that if they do the right works, they will earn everlasting life. They ask, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"

Jesus’ response is not what they expected: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent” (John 6:29).

This is a obvious statement that the only condition for everlasting life is faith in Christ. Not works which we may do, whether before or after salvation.

The Jews of Jesus’ day believed in works salvation. They thought that good Jews got into the kingdom (Luke 18:9-14; Acts 15:1; Gal 1:6-9)

Why was it difficult for them to accept the message? Because they believed they had to earn it!

It is most likely that Jesus is using the word work ironically.

It's like if you asked me what work I wanted you to do as my guest for dinner and I said, "Your job is to sit down and eat."
Because the struggle here is to accept that you can not do anything for salvation except to accept that it's free. People want to earn everything. They don't want to accept charity. It hurts our pride to do so. But that's the only " work" required. To lay aside ourselves and our need to earn everything we are given.

It is what Jesus is saying. Just to be clear reformed theology is a damnable heresy.

It's easy. to understand faith is a work.

Faith is a direct command, 1John 3:23-24.

Just as repentance is a direct command, Acts 17:30.

Keeping or obeying commandments are works.

They are something we must do!

God does not do the commandments He gives us.

Faith is a command we do. You see we do it. We are doing something in obedience to Gods command. Just like baptism, Acts 10:47-48.

Deny it all you want, it is a work of obedience.

They asked Jesus, what shall WE DO that WE may WORK the works of God.

Understand? They are asking how they can do works.

Jesus tells them how,

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, What SHALL WE DO, THAT WE MAY WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?

Jesus answered and said to them,
This is the work of God, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE SENT.

How is obeying this commandment not a work but the commandment of baptism is?

 

[New Testament Christian]

Well that's a common misunderstanding of the passage in John, usually by Calvinists.
Faith is being convinced or persuaded that something is true.
Here's the irony of John 6, the Jews also were looking to gain God's favor by works.
Jesus' audience were unbelieving legalists and they are confused. They think He is saying that if they do the right works, they will earn everlasting life. They ask, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"

Jesus’ response is not what they expected: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent” (John 6:29).

This is a obvious statement that the only condition for everlasting life is faith in Christ. Not works which we may do, whether before or after salvation.

The Jews of Jesus’ day believed in works salvation. They thought that good Jews got into the kingdom (Luke 18:9-14; Acts 15:1; Gal 1:6-9)

Why was it difficult for them to accept the message? Because they believed they had to earn it!

It is most likely that Jesus is using the word work ironically.

It's like if you asked me what work I wanted you to do as my guest for dinner and I said, "Your job is to sit down and eat."
Because the struggle here is to accept that you can not do anything for salvation except to accept that it's free. People want to earn everything. They don't want to accept charity. It hurts our pride to do so. But that's the only " work" required. To lay aside ourselves and our need to earn everything we are given.

While you ponder my question about how obeying commandments are works except according to you the commandment of belief, 1John 3:23-24. I have more for you to give an answer too.

If faith alone saves then explain how these things that save are not a part of the gospel unto salvation?

We are saved by God: 1Timothy 2:3-4
Saved by Christ: Matthew 18:11
Saved by Grace: Epheasians 2:8
Saved by Faith: John 8:24
Saved by preaching: 1Corinthians 1:21
Saved by the gospel: 1Corinthians 15:1-2
Saved by baptism: 1Peter 3:20-21

And the list goes on...

If all these things are said to save, then you can surely see that we are not saved by faith only?

Faith alone salvation contradicts plain Bible teaching, James taught against it,
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Of course we will.

Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more” (Heb 10:17; cf. Jer 31:34)

No Christian will be judged to decide his eternal destiny... as promised in John 5:24: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

This is a long subject that I'm not getting into, but
each person will reap what he or she sowed in this life. Believers will be judged according to their works to determine the degree of eternal reward.

Christians will be judged like the rest of the world.
Faithfull obedient christians to the end, Revelation 2:10 will be found justified before God.

Christians will still face Jesus in judgement.

And we will be judged by our works.

If we do good works as we were created to do, Epheasians 2:10, we will not pass into judgement.

If we repent when we sin, we will not pass into judgement.

If a Christian does works of darkness and does not continue walking in the light, 1John 1:6-7.

Then those wicked works will be judged by Jesus and that unfaithful christian will be judged condemned, Hebrews 10:26-27.

Our works whether wicked or righteous determines how Christians will be judged on judgement day.

Can a christian walk in darkness and still be saved?
Let's save this discussion for another time.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Tell that to Paul.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5:1

I have already taught verses that use faith as what saves is not faith alone. Because faith is a figure of speech in these verses like John 3:16 ; Romans 5:1 they represent the whole gospel of salvation.

We both know why you chose Romans 5:1 and not Romans 1:5

Romans 5:1
Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
That sure sounds like faith only doesn't it?
Except when you learn more of Paul's writings,

Romans 1:5
Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

Now we see, there is more that saves us in Jesus' gospel than just belief only. We must obey His commandments, John 14:21.

You conveniently forgot that very important figure of speech known as Synecdoche.

Where the part(faith) represents the whole(All that saves us).

Here's a Biblical example : Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if your BROTHER sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and HIM alone. If HE hears you, you have gained your BROTHER.

Now if I misinterpret the scriptures as the passages that only use the word faith, John 3:16 ; Romans 5:1 as rennik's sect does.

Then I must misinterpret all th scriptures the same way.

You see my point?

Matthew 18:15-16-17 only uses the word brother.
Therefore, it must be BROTHER ALONE!!!

So, if my sister sins against me none of these verses apply!

See how silly that is?

Brother is being used as Synecdoche in these verses.

Brother(part) represents the whole(All in Christ both brother and sister.

All the verses that just use the word faith, John 3:16
Never means faith only. Faith or belief represents all that saves us!

That is how you rightly divide the scriptures.

 

[Guojing]

What good news saves us today? The gospel of Jesus Christ.

There is no distinction between "the gospel of the kingdom " and the "gospel of grace " they are one in the same.

Paul taught all men the gospel!

Acts 20:20-21
How I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, TESTIFYING TO JEWS AND ALSO TO GREEKS, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

AND NOW, I GO BOUND IN THE SPIRIT TO JERUSALEM, NOT KNOWING THE THINGS THAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME THERE

Woop's !!!! "Paul ! !! , You're not supposed to be preaching to Jews and Greeks and then go to Jerusalem and teach more jews!!!" "According to the two gospels doctrine, you are supposed to go to the Jews first then the Holy Spirit gives you a new gospel and you are only to preach this second gospel to gentiles only. And never go back to teaching the "gospel of grace" to the Jews! "

But here you are going to Jews and Greeks at the same time, then going back to teach the gospel to more Jews!"

Guojing you better tell Paul he isn't following the teachings of your New Creation churches two gospels gospel.

Have you answered my question in the final sentence of that post you are replying to?

Do you think this (2 Samuel 7:12-17) is good news to David, and to Israel? Is this a gospel?

 

[Guojing]

Then why do you think that way? You think if you do more good stuff God will keep you saved.

I have actually more respect for people who front load works into the gospel. At least they are clear in stating their belief that works are also required, together with faith, for salvation.

Those that back load works into the gospel, as you are experiencing now, they like to have their cake and eat it. By resorting to circular arguments, its very difficult for you to get them to state their doctrine clearly.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Have you answered my question in the final sentence of that post you are replying to?

Do you think this (2 Samuel 7:12-17) is good news to David, and to Israel? Is this a gospel?

It should be obvious to you by now that there is only one gospel OF JESUS CHRIST.

2Samuel 7:12-17 is certainly good news for David and his offspring and for Gods people Isreal.

Whatever good news was given by God in the old covenant it is not binding on us today.

The only gospel that is binding on us today is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now I've answered your question.

I have actually more respect for people who front load works into the gospel. At least they are clear in stating their belief that works are also required, together with faith, for salvation.

Those that back load works into the gospel, as you are experiencing now, they like to have their cake and eat it. By resorting to circular arguments, its very difficult for you to get them to state their doctrine clearly.

I don't know how to be anymore transparent.

Faith alone is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
WORKS ARE REQUIRED TO BE SAVED. The gospel does not teach we earn salvation. Therefore the works in the gospel of Christ can only be an obedient action to Gods commands.

Guojing, give me one example of someone in the new testament being saved by faith alone by Jesus' gospel when it came into effect.

Also you made an accusation against me. Now prove that also.
Where have I used circular arguments, quote me.

 

[Guojing]

It should be obvious to you by now that there is only one gospel OF JESUS CHRIST.

2Samuel 7:12-17 is certainly good news for David and his offspring and for Gods people Isreal.

Whatever good news was given by God in the old covenant it is not binding on us today.

So you do agree God has given different gospels, to different groups of people, at different times of the Bible.

I am glad we at least agree on that point.

 

[Guojing]

WORKS ARE REQUIRED TO BE SAVED. The gospel does not teach we earn salvation. Therefore the works in the gospel of Christ can only be an obedient action to Gods commands.

Where have I used circular arguments, quote me.

Its a circular argument to say the following

Works are required to be saved.
The gospel does not teach we earn salvation.

Both cannot be correct at the same time.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Its a circular argument to say the following

Works are required to be saved.
The gospel does not teach we earn salvation.

Both cannot be correct at the same time.

Hahaha,

Your funny Guojing.

Tell me then, if both these, works and not earning salvation cannot be compatible, then do you do any good works for God?

Hahaha

 

[Guojing]

Hahaha,

Your funny Guojing.

Tell me then, if both these, works and not earning salvation cannot be compatible, then do you do any good works for God?

Hahaha

You asked for proof of your circular argument, I have provided one.