I am honestly fed up with this heresy...

[Bob Moore]

With reference to the comments just above:

CF is the TBN of the net. Any and all professions of 'faith' are acceptable no matter what the evidence to the contrary may be, and none is to be questioned. The fact of the matter is that wherever there are followers of Christ gathered, there the followers of satan will be also. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

I have decided to just tell it like the Bible does and leave it at that because it isn't any eloquence of mine that converts the heart. What they do with the truth they hear is between them and God.

As the bottom line of my signature points out:

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" In like manner not all who use the name "Christian" are of Christ.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Yeah, the scriptures I offered were, of course, refuted with other scriptures. I got a pretty lengthy response from this guy on them. According to him, what it basically comes down to is that God's will can't interfere with our own.

And God obviously said a lot of things in the old testament that He didn't mean.

I can't understand how someone can take one scripture and say: Because of this scripture here, that scripture can't possibly be true. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but that's what they are making it out to do.

{Loss for words.}

Erin

God's will can't interfere with our own? So, basically, we run the universe? What kind of a God is that? If this belief is true, why should we serve a helpless God when we can have everything our way anyway?

You know, I think that it is easier to understand how heresy comes about when you are a Calvinist. Notice I said understand. . .not syphathize, condone, etc. I'll explain. We believe in the Sovereignty of God. Thus, we know that it is God who has to open one's eyes to the truth. There but for the grace of God go I. I think that this is helpful when deciding what course of action to take against heresy. . .of course, there comes a time when you need to stop throwing your pearls before swine, but we can always pray that God will open the eyes of the heretic. Remember what God did to Saul? The greatest enemy to the Christians at that time was Saul, then God converted him and he became the greatest advocate, preacher, and teacher of the Christians. You never know what God may do!

 

[Seaioth]

Don't hate sin more than you love God thats all I can say. If you desire to preach to them not because you care about their soul but because you are provoked... that can have bad results... this is speaking from personal experience =p

Also look to Titus 3... some people are just warped and self-condemned... darkness cannot see light... but rejoice in the true and Absolute Sovereignty of God and let not this man-centered heresy dishearten you

 

[Seaioth]

This may/may not be helpful
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

But dont put so much pressure on yourself. Know that if they are able to see, it is God's revelation and not any point by point defeated argument.

Sheesh! Tell me about it! I'm over there in Christian Apologetics getting torn to shreds.

But then again I probably DID get in over my head. I'm trying to defend Sola Scriptura to a Roman Catholic...

http://www.christianforums.com/t2363278-a-concept-of-god-worthy-of-him.html&page=3#post20367915

Erin

 

[pinkieposies]

God's will can't interfere with our own? So, basically, we run the universe? What kind of a God is that? If this belief is true, why should we serve a helpless God when we can have everything our way anyway?

You know, I think that it is easier to understand how heresy comes about when you are a Calvinist. Notice I said understand. . .not syphathize, condone, etc. I'll explain. We believe in the Sovereignty of God. Thus, we know that it is God who has to open one's eyes to the truth. There but for the grace of God go I. I think that this is helpful when deciding what course of action to take against heresy. . .of course, there comes a time when you need to stop throwing your pearls before swine, but we can always pray that God will open the eyes of the heretic. Remember what God did to Saul? The greatest enemy to the Christians at that time was Saul, then God converted him and he became the greatest advocate, preacher, and teacher of the Christians. You never know what God may do!

I agree with you!

I was kinda being sarcastic. Haha. Sorry.

Erin

 

[JJB]

Happy Birthday, Pinkieposies!

 

[pinkieposies]

Happy Birthday, Pinkieposies!

Heehee! Thank you!

It's not till the 13th, but I will accept early birthday wishes!

 

[Erinwilcox]

I agree with you!

I was kinda being sarcastic. Haha. Sorry.

Erin

Whoops! I knew that. I was only trying to understand how anyone could believe what the person that you mentioned believed. I know that those weren't your thoughts! Sorry if it sounded that way!

 

[pinkieposies]

Whoops! I knew that. I was only trying to understand how anyone could believe what the person that you mentioned believed. I know that those weren't your thoughts! Sorry if it sounded that way!

Oh, that's quite alright!


Erin

 

[vangelicmonk]

I don't agree with 5 points or a lot of Reformed Theology, but I don't think you are heretical as the links imply in the first post. Nevertheless, I don't think the guy is heretical that posted the link critical of Calvinism or the definition that Calvinists give on the Majesty of God. I am happy you all are in the body of Christ. I wish we could get along better and not think the other is so "stupid" or "unchristian." There is always going to be a difference in opinion on the distinctives of our faith because those things are not essentially clear in scripture. Let us defend the essentials more fervently than we try to defend our distinctives. It is there that we are most faithful to the Gospel of Christ.

p.s. I have learned a lot from Calvinists, just as I have learned a lot from CHurch of Christ believers, Pentacostals, and other denominations. I am thankful for your faithfulness in Christ. God Bless.

 

[Bob Moore]

I don't agree with 5 points or a lot of Reformed Theology,

Pray tell why not, seeing as how those points are all evident from Scripture?

I wish we could get along better...

Go along to get along, eh? It is a good thing that Luther didn't think that way.

There is always going to be a difference in opinion on the distinctives of our faith because those things are not essentially clear in scripture. Let us defend the essentials more fervently than we try to defend our distinctives.

Speaking as a teacher of Reformed doctrine I tell you that the distinctives are as plain in Scripture as the sun at high noon. Further, the distinctives of doctrine are essentials because they define which God it is we worship. It is extremely common today to find people following a watered down, powerless god because they either have not been taught, or refuse to accept, the God of the Bible.

It is there that we are most faithful to the Gospel of Christ.

Nonsense. Jesus command us to "go and tell", and as Paul said that includes the "whole counsel of God", and nothing less.

 

[JJB]

Speaking as a teacher of Reformed doctrine I tell you that the distinctives are as plain in Scripture as the sun at high noon. Further, the distinctives of doctrine are essentials because they define which God it is we worship. It is extremely common today to find people following a watered down, powerless god because they either have not been taught, or refuse to accept, the God of the Bible.

is evidence of:

CF is the TBN of the net. Any and all professions of 'faith' are acceptable no matter what the evidence to the contrary may be, and none is to be questioned. The fact of the matter is that wherever there are followers of Christ gathered, there the followers of satan will be also. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

It is my prayer that churches will get back to teaching their congregants why they believe what they believe! I think this is he cause of much of the heresies that are abounding in Christendom. Many of which had been laid to rest centures ago, but are once again rising to the fore.

 

[Bob Moore]

It is my prayer that churches will get back to teaching their congregants why they believe what they believe!

Here, here!

I think this is he cause of much of the heresies that are abounding in Christendom. Many of which had been laid to rest centures ago, but are once again rising to the fore.

I agree completely. I believe the post modern notion of moral equivalence has permeated many churches so that they are no longer able to discern truth from error. Worse, there are churches that will not even grant that there is such a thing as absolute truth.

 

[Jon_]

Nonsense. Jesus command us to "go and tell", and as Paul said that includes the "whole counsel of God", and nothing less.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[vangelicmonk]

Pray tell why not, seeing as how those points are all evident from Scripture?



Go along to get along, eh? It is a good thing that Luther didn't think that way.



Speaking as a teacher of Reformed doctrine I tell you that the distinctives are as plain in Scripture as the sun at high noon. Further, the distinctives of doctrine are essentials because they define which God it is we worship. It is extremely common today to find people following a watered down, powerless god because they either have not been taught, or refuse to accept, the God of the Bible.



Nonsense. Jesus command us to "go and tell", and as Paul said that includes the "whole counsel of God", and nothing less.

If the distinctives are so plain and main why not make them same as the essentials and that they are a standard of orthodoxy and anyone who is 4 Tuplips or less is outside of Orthdoxy. It is what Calvinists of old did. It would address the hypocrisy of saying well these distinctives are essential, but not "essentials."

I believe in the whole counsel of God as well and that it should be taught within each denomination, but there are differences within that counsel if differences within Reformed Theology. Nobody agress 100% on distinctives. The reason is because these things are not main and plain of scripture. If they are then read what I said above. So let us promote the essentials fervently through the Gospel and let us be humble in teaching distinctives.

I appreciate what Luther did in addressing the Sin of the church.

 

[Jon_]

If the distinctives are so plain and main why not make them same as the essentials and that they are a standard of orthodoxy and anyone who is 4 Tuplips or less is outside of Orthdoxy. It is what Calvinists of old did. It would address the hypocrisy of saying well these distinctives are essential, but not "essentials."

I do maintain the doctrines of grace are a test of orthodoxy, but I do not maintain that all who are "unorthodox" are automatically unregenerate heretics.

I believe in the whole counsel of God as well and that it should be taught within each denomination, but there are differences within that counsel if differences within Reformed Theology. Nobody agress 100% on distinctives. The reason is because these things are not main and plain of scripture. If they are then read what I said above. So let us promote the essentials fervently through the Gospel and let us be humble in teaching distinctives.

I appreciate what Luther did in addressing the Sin of the church.

There are no differences in the counsel of God and no differences in the historic symbols of Reformed faith (excepting, perhaps, certain things like supra/sublapsarianism). That people depart from them today is simply a product of the ever-growing apostasy of the visible churches. Historically, this has been a common pattern, both in Israel, and in the visible church. There comes a period of revival and great spiritual dedication of the churches and then a gradual falling away. And just before all looks completely hopeless, there is another great revival, and God calls his elect out from the apostate churches.

This was the pattern that Israel exhibited, the pattern seen in the fifth century A.D., and also during the Protestant Reformation. I am no prophet, but I would not at all be surprised to learn that the current growing apostasy of the churches and the encroaching liberalism and other heresies are the beginnings of another great revival of the true church of Christ. Where most people see these things as depressing and dreadful, I am excited to think that God might even now be raising up another Nehemiah, Augustine, Martin Luther, or even J. Gresham Machen. It's exciting to see the work that is set before us, and while it might seem overbearing and far too much for so few people, we must never forget that if God is for us, who can be against us; and we can do all things through Jesus Christ.

So, I'm encouraged to be alive in the kingdom at this time, for the harvest is bountiful, but the workers are few. There are droves of elect among the apostates even now—and in the world even now. I consider it a privilege and an amazing act of grace to be enabled to be of some humble service to the Lord as he is willing in this age.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Bob Moore]

Thanks, Jon_. You saved me the effort. Where do I send my check?

 

[Bob Moore]

Jon_ pretty well covered it, but I think I will elaborate a couple of things.

... Nobody agress 100% on distinctives. The reason is because these things are not main and plain of scripture. If they are then read what I said above. So let us promote the essentials fervently through the Gospel and let us be humble in teaching distinctives.

I will readily grant that there are certain distinctives within denominations that not everyone can agree on. Nor should they. But these are not, or ought not to be, with regard to matters about which God has spoken. A few years ago we were priveleged to have as a member of our church a retired Presbyterian pastor from the upper midweast. His was a slightly different (for want of a better term) tradition than ours. Someone once asked him "what is a church?", and he cut right to the chase: "four walls and a sermon". What he was saying is that the people urgently need to hear the Word of God, and nothing else. He was/is correct. Sure, there are other ministries within the Church, but none of them outranks the ministry of the Word. Therefor, private opinions on what the Word ought or might be saying have no weight. The proper question is, "what does the Word actually say?" And before someone tells me that what I teach is only my interpretation, I will point out that my teaching is built upon that of the Bible. What I say is what it says, without personal adornment (except in such cases as reasonable inferences are drawn, and then only when such are clearly noted) and is backed by the scholarship of hundreds of years of the divines.

I appreciate what Luther did in addressing the Sin of the church.

So do I, but do you see the untenability of your original statement?

 

[Jon_]

Thanks, Jon_. You saved me the effort. Where do I send my check?

To your home church.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[vangelicmonk]

Jon_ pretty well covered it, but I think I will elaborate a couple of things.



I will readily grant that there are certain distinctives within denominations that not everyone can agree on. Nor should they. But these are not, or ought not to be, with regard to matters about which God has spoken. A few years ago we were priveleged to have as a member of our church a retired Presbyterian pastor from the upper midweast. His was a slightly different (for want of a better term) tradition than ours. Someone once asked him "what is a church?", and he cut right to the chase: "four walls and a sermon". What he was saying is that the people urgently need to hear the Word of God, and nothing else. He was/is correct. Sure, there are other ministries within the Church, but none of them outranks the ministry of the Word. Therefor, private opinions on what the Word ought or might be saying have no weight. The proper question is, "what does the Word actually say?" And before someone tells me that what I teach is only my interpretation, I will point out that my teaching is built upon that of the Bible. What I say is what it says, without personal adornment (except in such cases as reasonable inferences are drawn, and then only when such are clearly noted) and is backed by the scholarship of hundreds of years of the divines.




So do I, but do you see the untenability of your original statement?

I understand what you both are saying. On the essentials I agree with you guys whole heartedly and I am more than happy to stand with you and all denominations in those essentials. I appreciate your views on the distinctives and I am glad to gleam insight from your views, but for the most part I don't agree with your theology. I don't come to the same conclusions (as do many Christians) as the Reformed. However, that doesn't bother me. Just as it doesn't bother me that you don't come to the same conclusions as me or any other group. I take comfort in our unity in Christ and the essentials. I am thankful for you as my brothers in Christ, but I lose no sleep in not believeing in the 5 points. With the inferences you speak of some think those inferences are not needed, some think the inferences do not go far enough. Those views are fine as long as they do not go outside of the essentials and thus outside of orthodoxy. I am thankful for this that I may go to any church and feel that I am with family. I may not agree with every distinctive, but I see dear brothers and sisters in Christ. However, when they look down upon me because I don't take their distinctive as gospel, then I see that as a problem. And I have found that in many different denominations.

The Reformed tradition and history is facinating. So is the history of the early church. So is the history of the Brethern movement. So is the history of the some of the protestants before Luther. So is the history of the Jesus Movement of the 1960's. So is the history of the movements of the Great Awakenings. So is the history and the tradition of the Anabaptists, Pentacostals, Charasmatics, The Church of Christ, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, and even Catholic movements. I see how God uses all of these people and I also see how some in each of these movements either have rejected God or are in sin or did sin. None of them are perfect in action or distinctive, but one thing I find that is a common thread is the upholding (for the most part) of all the essentials of the faith. I love to learn from all parts of the history and body of Christ, but I still hold to a certian set of distinctives, but I do not hold them as high as the essentials and fellowship of my brothers in Christ. The only thing that seperates me from them is sin and even sin on my part.