I am beginning to see a light.

[Andrew MacKenzie]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

 

[By_the_Book]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

Okay that's fine but it really doesn't say why you think God hates you.

 

[Sabertooth]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

If you have been Born Again, you are not among the hated. You can only be Born Again because God initiated loving conviction toward you.
If He did not love you, you would have experienced no such conviction.

(You sound more like my son who struggles with OCD.)

Do you have a home church that you attend regularly? Isolating yourself is the worst thing you can do right now.

The Church & Mental Illness...

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

I mean I'm sure there are people God dislikes for what they do, for example in the following verse Ahab caused Israel to sin and Elijah prophesied against him, but when he repented God withheld punishment. What i'm trying to say is even if God was mad with you He does not stay mad and will listen to repentance, and that's if you actually did something to anger Him, if not i don't see how God could hate you.

1Kings 21:20 Ahab said to Elijah, “Have you found me, O my enemy?” He answered, “I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do what is evil in the sight of the Lord. 21 Behold, I will bring disaster upon you. I will utterly burn you up, and will cut off from Ahab every male, bond or free, in Israel. 22 And I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the anger to which you have provoked me, and because you have made Israel to sin.23 And of Jezebel the Lord also said, ‘The dogs shall eat Jezebel within the walls of Jezreel.’24 Anyone belonging to Ahab who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone of his who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat.”

Ahab's Repentance
25 (There was none who sold himself to do what was evil in the sight of the Lord like Ahab, whom Jezebel his wife incited. 26 He acted very abominably in going after idols, as the Amorites had done, whom the Lord cast out before the people of Israel.)

27 And when Ahab heard those words, he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his flesh and fasted and lay in sackcloth and went about dejectedly.28 And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 29 “Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days;..."

 

[Der Alte]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

God did not suddenly decide to hate Esau. What did Esau do that caused God to hate him?

 

[Ligurian]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

Why? Did you trade your birthright for a bowl of lentils?

Romans 9:13-15, in context:

Exodus 33:16-19 And how shall it be surely known, that both I and this people have found favour with Thee, except only if Thou go with us? So both I and thy people shall be glorified beyond all the nations, as many as are upon the earth. [17] And the Lord said to Moses, I will also do for thee this thing which thou hast spoken, for thou hast found grace before Me and I know thee above all.[18] And Moses says, Manifest Thyself to me.[19] And God said, I will pass by before thee with My glory, and I will call by My name, the Lord, before thee; and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and will have pity on whom I will have pity.[20] And God said, Thou shalt not be able to see My face; for no man shall see My face, and live.[21] And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by Me: thou shalt stand upon the rock;[22] and when My glory shall pass by, then I will put thee into a hole of the rock; and I will cover thee over with My hand, until I shall have passed by.[23] And I will remove My hand, and then shalt thou see My back parts; but My face shall not appear to thee.LXX

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear:[16] according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die.[17] And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee.[18] I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.KJV

John 14:21-24 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.[22] Judas saith unto Him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?[23] Ιησους answered and said unto him, If a man love Me he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.[24] He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings... therefore...

 

[tturt]

-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
--“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
- "I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6

We all have done things we shouldn't have but "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? ...(Mal 2;10)
You are God's workmanship.

 

[Macchiato]

I mean I'm sure there are people God dislikes for what they do, for example in the following verse Ahab caused Israel to sin and Elijah prophesied against him, but when he repented God withheld punishment. What i'm trying to say is even if God was mad with you He does not stay mad and will listen to repentance, and that's if you actually did something to anger Him, if not i don't see how God could hate you.

1Kings 21:20 Ahab said to Elijah, “Have you found me, O my enemy?” He answered, “I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do what is evil in the sight of the Lord. 21 Behold, I will bring disaster upon you. I will utterly burn you up, and will cut off from Ahab every male, bond or free, in Israel. 22 And I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the anger to which you have provoked me, and because you have made Israel to sin.23 And of Jezebel the Lord also said, ‘The dogs shall eat Jezebel within the walls of Jezreel.’24 Anyone belonging to Ahab who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone of his who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat.”

Ahab's Repentance
25 (There was none who sold himself to do what was evil in the sight of the Lord like Ahab, whom Jezebel his wife incited. 26 He acted very abominably in going after idols, as the Amorites had done, whom the Lord cast out before the people of Israel.)

27 And when Ahab heard those words, he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his flesh and fasted and lay in sackcloth and went about dejectedly.28 And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 29 “Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days;..."

But doesnt he love everyone despite what they do? Idk i have a hard time wondering why God was so vengeful and spiteful in the OT and even now it seems.

Im not seeing much love from God. He seems more like us kind of.

 

[Macchiato]

Why? Did you trade your birthright for a bowl of lentils?

Romans 9:13-15, in context:

Exodus 33:16-19 And how shall it be surely known, that both I and this people have found favour with Thee, except only if Thou go with us? So both I and thy people shall be glorified beyond all the nations, as many as are upon the earth. [17] And the Lord said to Moses, I will also do for thee this thing which thou hast spoken, for thou hast found grace before Me and I know thee above all.[18] And Moses says, Manifest Thyself to me.[19] And God said, I will pass by before thee with My glory, and I will call by My name, the Lord, before thee; and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and will have pity on whom I will have pity.[20] And God said, Thou shalt not be able to see My face; for no man shall see My face, and live.[21] And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by Me: thou shalt stand upon the rock;[22] and when My glory shall pass by, then I will put thee into a hole of the rock; and I will cover thee over with My hand, until I shall have passed by.[23] And I will remove My hand, and then shalt thou see My back parts; but My face shall not appear to thee.LXX

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear:[16] according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die.[17] And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee.[18] I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.KJV

John 14:21-24 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.[22] Judas saith unto Him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?[23] Ιησους answered and said unto him, If a man love Me he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.[24] He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings... therefore...

But why? Why does God only have mercy on some and not all? This makes me look at God differently for sure.

 

[Ligurian]

But why? Why does God only have mercy on some and not all? This makes me look at God differently for sure.

That's not even the point of these verses, verse 18 is:

Exodus 33:16-20 And how shall it be surely known, that both I and this people have found favour with Thee, except only if Thou go with us? So both I and thy people shall be glorified beyond all the nations, as many as are upon the earth. [17] And the Lord said to Moses, I will also do for thee this thing which thou hast spoken, for thou hast found grace before Me and I know thee above all.[18] And Moses says, Manifest Thyself to me.[19] And God said, I will pass by before thee with My glory, and I will call by My name, the Lord, before thee; and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and will have pity on whom I will have pity.[20] And God said, Thou shalt not be able to see My face; for no man shall see My face, and live.LXX

Moses asked God to manifest Himself, v18.

In the New Covenant, the Son will manifest Himself to those who have and keep His Commandments, v21... then both Father and Son will make their home with you.

John 14:21-24 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.[22] Judas saith unto Him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?[23] Ιησους answered and said unto him, If a man love Me he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.[24] He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

Think about that for a second. The Creator will live with you, if you keep His words. Deuteronomy 18:18-19 says the Father's words are the Son's words to His 12 Disciples, and so does John 17:6-8.

How is that not mercy? Mercy means He will forgive you when you repent. Your mercy towards others mean you forgive them when they say they're sorry. And if you love them, then you keep forgiving them, each and every time they say they're sorry.

It's not unconditional love. It's even better than unconditional love. Because when you hurt someone, you feel guilty. And you can't stop feeling guilty until you say you're sorry. But if you never had to say you're sorry... wouldn't you still feel bad about what you did?
Saying sorry clears the air, wipes the slate, and puts you back at square one.

And if you keep saying you're sorry, it changes you. You stop and think before you do something that makes you have to be humiliated. Because this is the real deal about the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5--Matthew 7: People with a lot of pride won't want any part of it.

But it's kinda hard to be proud, when you do bad things, right?
So, you either fess up, or you pretend it didn't happen.
And if you keep pretending stuff didn't happen, then you become so hard-hearted that you end up doing something really bad before you even notice what you have become.
Repentance and forgiveness... really IS mercy, in the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

But doesnt he love everyone despite what they do? Idk i have a hard time wondering why God was so vengeful and spiteful in the OT and even now it seems.

Im not seeing much love from God. He seems more like us kind of.

I mean I want to start by saying I do not speak for God but He did make us in His image and we do share emotional qualities such as anger and joy etc. I mean thinking of how complex God is and how much He knows, sin against Him is much more than what we humans put on paper as it being. It has a weight to it and a tangibility almost, God is Holy and when we sin against Him can we blame Him if He is angry? At the sin of course He does love us I'm sure you've heard the term "hates the sin loves the sinner" but in all seriousness it's true tho

 

[Sketcher]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

That's not proof that he hates you. It's proof that he hated Esau.

 

[Strong in Him]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

That verse is about election, not emotions.
God chose Jacob, and not Esau, to be the father of the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel. Apparently Jews believed that if God chose someone it meant that he loved them - therefore he must hate anyone he didn't choose.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

That's a repetition of the same verse, not a different one.

.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people.

"Imply" - I thought you said it was proof?

He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

Why do you think he hates you?

Jesus died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
Are you a sinner? Well then, God sent his Son to die for you so that you could be reconciled to him.
John said that that is how we define love -"THIS is love; Jesus gave his life for us." 1 John 3;16. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. Jesus Christ, who was sinless, was the one man on this earth who did not deserve to die. Yet he chose to suffer and die in agony; to lay down his life, for YOU.

 

[surreal_platypus]

I have grappled with this in my head too when I read this story.. Seems like Esau was treated pretty harshly just because his brother was a better person than him. It's not like he was going around lying, robbing, raping, or murdering anyone or was a athiest or devil worshipper. It's not like he was a bad person. It's like God is picking favorites instead of choosing to transform Esau into a better person. What makes him unworthy of being enlightened and status elevated? Why just punishment? What did he do that was so wrong?

 

[Macchiato]

I have grappled with this in my head too when I read this story.. Seems like Esau was treated pretty harshly just because his brother was a better person than him. It's not like he was going around lying, robbing, raping, or murdering anyone or was a athiest or devil worshipper. It's not like he was a bad person. It's like God is picking favorites instead of choosing to transform Esau into a better person. What makes him unworthy of being enlightened and status elevated? Why just punishment? What did he do that was so wrong?

I wonder this as well... Esau seemed ok.

 

[Strong in Him]

I have grappled with this in my head too when I read this story.. Seems like Esau was treated pretty harshly just because his brother was a better person than him.

Jacob was not a better person than Esau - he was a liar and a deceiver.
But God gave Rebecca a prophecy before they were born that the older would serve the younger.

Other men in Scripture who were chosen were younger brothers too; Isaac, Joseph, Moses, David.
It seems natural to think that older brothers would be chosen - those who were stronger, wiser, with more experience etc. But as Paul says, "God chooses the weak things of the world to shame the strong", 1 Corinthians 1:27

 

[surreal_platypus]

Jacob was not a better person than Esau - he was a liar and a deceiver.
But God gave Rebecca a prophecy before they were born that the older would serve the younger.

Other men in Scripture who were chosen were younger brothers too; Isaac, Joseph, Moses, David.
It seems natural to think that older brothers would be chosen - those who were stronger, wiser, with more experience etc. But as Paul says, "God chooses the weak things of the world to shame the strong", 1 Corinthians 1:27

Well then if he wasn't a better person that makes it even more confusing that he would choose to put him to shame and give all his fortune to a liar. What is the lesson there? Don't be strong or come out of your mother's womb first or God might choose to hate you and give everything you have to a liar?

 

[Strong in Him]

Well then if he wasn't a better person that makes it even more confusing that he would choose to put him to shame and give all his fortune to a liar. What is the lesson there? Don't be strong or come out of your mother's womb first or God might choose to hate you and give everything you have to a liar?

God didn't choose to hate Esau.
God chose Jacob, before he was born and had done anything, to be the father of 12 sons who would be leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel. In turn, one of those tribes was chosen to be the one from which King David, and then Jesus, were descended. Mary was chosen, above all others, to be the mother of Jesus. 12 men were chosen to be Jesus' closest disciples.
God has always called, and chosen, people to serve him in different ways.

The question is, why are you fixating on one verse and why do you believe God hates you because he, apparently, "hated" Esau?

 

[Lost4words]

God is mercy and love.

Trust in God.

 

[AWorkInProgress]

I found 3 verses that bring down the “God loves everyone” theology down like a house of cards.
Malachi 1:2-3
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons in the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These verses imply that God does indeed hate some people. He likely hates me but I can’t do anything about it.

You have stumbled into one of the greatest debates in Christianity. Free will vs Sovereignty of God.

Do you accept Jesus into your heart or allow him to save you? Or is your salvation a work that God chose to do in your life whether you wanted it or not?

The real question is how bad was the fall in Genesis chapter 3? We become evil, but we can still choose to seek righteousness on our own. Or are we so broken and lost that we are spiritually a corpse, and God chooses whether to regenerate our Spirit with his?

I will admit I am on the sovereignty side of the debate. Ultimately no one knows for certain where they fall into until they are dead and leave this place. Stop focusing on God hating you, and humble yourself for thinking you know God's thoughts before he does. Start focusing on the Gospel, the Good news, and pray for your salvation.