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I am an agnostic atheist!!

Catherineanne

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Stephen Roberts said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

This is a circular argument. It is like someone standing at the foothills of the Himalayas picking up a pebble and saying, 'this is only a pebble, therefore there is no such thing as a mountain.' You have to look slightly higher, in other words.

I can use it as well:

I contend that we are both theists. I just believe in one more God than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why the one that remains must be the right one.

And then St Anselm: God is that, greater than which we cannot conceive.

If you have not yet found God, you simply have not yet found a big enough concept of God. The ones you disbelieve are the petty, bigoted, vengeful, racist, sadistic, pathological gods. Find the one you know is there to be found, and don't settle for anything less. Stop scrabbling in the pebbles, and look upwards to the highest possible point.

And having found him, as I have, you won't need anything further. In other words, if you don't believe in the God you have found so far, try finding a bigger, better variant. :wave:

Try reading some of these, for a start.

St Isaac of Nineveh and Syrian Mysticism - - Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev
 
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Varicose Brains

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If you have not yet found God, you simply have not yet found a big enough concept of God. The ones you disbelieve are the petty, bigoted, vengeful, racist, sadistic, pathological gods. Find the one you know is there to be found, and don't settle for anything less. Stop scrabbling in the pebbles, and look upwards to the highest possible point.

And having found him, as I have, you won't need anything further. In other words, if you don't believe in the God you have found so far, try finding a bigger, better variant. :wave:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_6

One of the big problems I have in really believing in the Christian God is exactly because of the things I've highlighted above. The God of the Old Testament is a monster; he's genocidal and places little value on human life. The flood of Noah was, in any modern person's mind, an evil genocide. That is, of course, if you actually believe the flood happened (there's no archaeological or geological evidence for a worldwide flood). The God as described in the Old Testament is also jealous (he freely admits so) and desires constant praise and affirmation of his abilities (why is this so?). What I also find disturbing is that God commands us not to commit murder, or be jealous, and yet he does not live by these rules himself.

So on that basis, your argument against the OP is seriously flawed.
 
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elman

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I am sorry, I know it said this was a Christian only area but it was the closest area I found to do with my questions. (Mods, please move this if necessary)



I do not believe in God simply because there is no proof of God. If there was evidence that a deity existed I would welcome that evidence and therefore believe in that God and have a faith.

Due to the severe lack of evidence for any God whatsoever, why did you choose to believe the christian God and not others such as the Egyptian gods or Buddha?

I ask this as I am trying to expand my knowledge on why Christians are Christians. The most common reason so far is because they were born into a christian family and have therefore been brought up a christian with no choice in the matter.

Please respond, I am looking for a serious intellectual discussion about religion, I am not trying to force you out of Christianity I am just trying to understand your thought processes.
To me saying you are an agnostic atheists means you are willing to think and understand you cannot percieve all reality. I am an agnostic Christian. I believe there has been evidence of God presented to me in my life, but it is not God speaking to me directly or anything that could not have been explained as coincidental. Until I was twenty five or so I believed in God but thought He did not interact with this world because I had never observed it. Then something occured that was such that to me believe it was coincidental was more unreasonable than believe it was not. As I became open to the possibility and willing to accept that something might not be just coincidence, I began to see much more and looking back on my life before I was twenty five, I saw many times that I now believe were orchestrated by God. At seventy years old, I am convinced God is there and can be trusted, but I still walk by faith and not by sight.
 
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elman

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One final question (directed at anyone who reads this) I would like to ask is why you believe in your God, Christian God, and not others such as Buddha or Ancient Egyptian Gods.
To me, if you can answer this I'll be able to tell you why I do not believe in your God.

Stephen Roberts said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

And with that, I bid you farewell.
Jesus taught that we are the children of a loving Creator that loves us and wants us to love him and each other. One can assume that is reality or one can assume there is no Creator or that the Creator is evil or a mixture of good and evil. Jesus seem to teach the more reasonable assumption. Buddha is not very impressive to me. He seems to have taught a way to escape the pain and suffering in this life, ultimately through oblivion. The reality is that our ultimate destiny may be obllivion but that is not something I find reasonable to hope will happen.
The Old Egyptian Gods seem to have been hung up on our keeping this physical body when we die and go to the next realm if there is one. Not very reasonable to me.
 
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Catherineanne

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One of the big problems I have in really believing in the Christian God is exactly because of the things I've highlighted above. The God of the Old Testament is a monster; he's genocidal and places little value on human life. The flood of Noah was, in any modern person's mind, an evil genocide. That is, of course, if you actually believe the flood happened (there's no archaeological or geological evidence for a worldwide flood). The God as described in the Old Testament is also jealous (he freely admits so) and desires constant praise and affirmation of his abilities (why is this so?). What I also find disturbing is that God commands us not to commit murder, or be jealous, and yet he does not live by these rules himself.

So on that basis, your argument against the OP is seriously flawed.

God is perfect, people are not. And jealous in relation to God is not what you think it is; it is intended to protect us, not his ego.

If anyone is commiting murder, being vengeful etc etc, then it is people. And, being human, they like someone to blame, and so they say, 'God told me to do it.' They said it 5,000 years ago, and they say the same thing today; people do not change. It is called projection. They create God in their own image, and then they blame him for their own evil deeds.

There was a tsunami a few years ago. Some people then said it was sent by God; it wasn't. It was part of the natural world, which he created, and which we live in. Survivor guilt is a recognised phenomenon in our time; why did I survive? Why did they deserve to die, when I am left alive? In ancient times the best answer they could find to that question was, God must have wanted it that way. That does not mean that God actually wanted anything of the kind.

God wrote the ten commandments, as you rightly say, and he said, thou shalt not kill. He did not then go on to condone genocide, or any other sin.

The OT got some of God's message right, but was mistaken in other places; the prophets themselves admit this, time and again, when they call Israel to repentance and to turn back to God. The revelation of God is a gradual process over time, made most perfect in Christ himself. If you want to know who God is, and what he is like, the clearest, most consistent image is in Christ. If anything in the OT is not consistent with God in Christ, then the chances are it is human projection. As Isaiah says, Christ is the plumbline of our faith.
 
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sk8Joyful

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I do not believe in God simply because there is no proof of God.
If there was evidence that a deity existed I would welcome that evidence and
therefore believe in that God and have a faith.
Every day atheists ask this SAME question, &
Every day Christians provide the SAME responses, do you read ;) them?

Due to the severe lack of evidence for any God whatsoever,
why did you choose to believe the christian God and
not others such as the Egyptian gods or Buddha?
because neither egyptian gods, nor buddha, made themselves known to me, in REaquaintance.

I ask this as I am trying to expand my knowledge on why Christians are Christians.
The most common reason so far is because they were born into a christian family
and have therefore been brought up a christian with no choice in the matter.
Try again! :thumbsup: I was raised in a former communist-country,
where God made Himself known to me at Kindergarten age,
without my ever having heard anyone pray, & never held a Bible, & never been inside no church.

Please respond, I am looking for a serious intellectual discussion about religion,
I am not trying to force you out of Christianity
I am just trying to understand your thought processes.
Kewl -
Tho you should remember, that GOD is not limited to
'only thought'-processes, for INTER-communications... for example, God loves :) you 'personally' ;)

next question? ;)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi have to admit I did not read the posts before this one just the original poster question. So sorry if I am butting in on your convesation but I love these kind of posts. I get to share my stories. First before I share just a portion of what God has done let me say when you read all this stuff, if you say well God must be real, know for sure 100% God loves you in such a way that he rejoices (excedingly greatly), in the prospect of getting to know you more. I hope the list is not too boring, happy reading.


One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was captured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words meant. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homeless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. So I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit. From this I do not believe God was saying the legal system is wrong just this particular action.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosaur. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentence "bood", a term I had never heard before. I decided to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies " bood," it means in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," and the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslim and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslim. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.

Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing and benefits those who see the sun. - Ecc 7:11 I have always considered it wise to seek God for every thing in life. By this I do not mean "God, what should I eat" or "what should I wear". Not small insignificant things but things that matter. God cares about the things that we see as significant, things that are important to us. There was a point in my life where I was single, unmarried and constantly bombarded by the worlds system of doing things, a system to which I was diametrically opposed. I wanted to find a partner, but was not really sure how to go about it. By trade I am a computer programmer so the Internet was very familiar to me. So I tried internet dating. I remember getting to a point of meeting quite a few people but not really fully clicking with any of them. So I prayed and said out of all the thousands of people that are online in the world there must be some one who could make a good partner for me. So I deliberately listened for God’s voice, and prayed once. The word “Grace” entered my mind. So I typed “Grace” into the search box (that was used to search for profiles). The first profile to come up was of Ru Chen. I had been contacted by Ru Chen once, but we were unable to send messages to one another over the site for some unknown reason. So I tried to contact her again, but again with no success. Some time latter Ru was able to contact me using an email I had sent to her when she had first contacted me, after chatting online for some weeks we decided to meet. We went out together to the movies and just eating out, and seeing each other for some time. Eventually we decided to marry. We went out and bought a ring. Some months latter we got married.

This is a story of God working between me an my wife to get his point accross. One night I was laying on my bed and the verse of scripture came into my mind "With patience possess your souls". Latter that week my wife called me into the bedroom where she was reading the bible not knowing anyting about what I had heard said to me "this is a verse you will like", a thing she never has done before. It was Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.Jas 5:7-8 It was not that I was not being patient, for I was, when talking to my mother about it we both felt it ment, the coming of the LORD is near means his intervention in our lives is near. When we are patient we reap a harvest of his blessing given time. So by faith I believe some time, sooner or latter God will do something if we just wait patiently and obediently for him to act, even if it is his final salvation on his return.

I was praying for all Muslum countries on the 27 of Febuary 2011, and specifically for the president of Iran, which I do whenever I pray for them. That God might bring them to salvation that can only be found in the Love and mercy of Jesus Christ. Like the bible says there is no other name given under heaven or earth by which man can be saved. I went into the kitchen, and asked the LORD for a verse of scripture for him, I opened the bible up to a verse, It was quite condemning, so I said LORD you must be able to have more mercy than that. So I opend up the bible again and it opened to "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14. I was not sure if either of the verses were for him, so I did not send anything. The next day I was having a break from work and thought of him again. So I prayed LORD do you have anything that I can send to bless him with. This time I was on the computer so I used my electronic bible, a different one to the night before. I randomly selected a verse, not looking at where I was choosing and it rested on the exact same verse I had received the night before. "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 So I knew God had chosen that verse for him. So I sent him the verse of scripture and an encouragement to seek Jesus. Then on the 6th of March a Sunday I set about praying and fasting, and prayed for the president and all the members of his parliment, again I said LORD give me a verse for them, bless them and bring them to you, even if they have resisted you, just bless them with salvation. I opened the bible and again, and my finger rested on "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 I have to admit I am not sure what God's plans are for them, but I know they are good because God loves them. I feel these verses sum up the attitude it is wise to have, "The highway of the upright avoids evil; he who guards his way guards his life. Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD". Pro 16:17-20.

That is the end of the stories I have recorded in my microsoft word document. But there are plenty of other times God has revealed Himself to me, but you can't read for ever. Lately he has been showing me His great love. That He is truely a merciful God willing to forgive anyone who asks. I hope you can go away with the feeling that God loves you personally. He really does party hard when he thinks of you.
 
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Catherineanne

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What good is faith? An emotional stabilizer at times, but more harmful than good.

What good is asking a question, if you already have your own answer?

ex. Putting faith in God does not guarantee that a sick person will get better. It actually has statistically zero impact on whether or not the sick person is healed or not. What utility does faith serve other than one of false hope?

You tell me; you are the one with all the clever answers.

You can certainly hope for things, but hope won't change your actions. Faith will, and the point is that something that does nothing is now a guiding light that affects the way people act. Faith is a developmental problem that our species needs to grow up and get over, I'm sorry for being a realist but unfortunately I live in reality.

I too am a realist, and I also live in reality. My reality is shared with God.

You cannot prove me wrong, any more than you can prove there is no God. I suggest you accept it. :)

And now, a question for you. Science shows that when an animal or a human dies, a normal part of dying is for a huge release of endorphins, which makes the process of dying painless and even enjoyable. There is no reason in nature or in evolution why this should happen. Strictly speaking, nature only calls for the perpetuation of each species, not for each creature within it to have a happy or comfortable death. The need for procreation would be perfectly satisfied if we all died in agony, as long as the species continues. So, explain that one away.

To me, the only explanation is a loving God, who cares for even the smallest creature, and has built into his creation the norm of painless death. Clearly this does not always apply, but in the vast majority of cases it does. There is no explanation in Darwinism, or anywhere else in science, why this should be the case.

The only answer, to my mind, is in a beneficent Creator. Feel free do disagree; unlike yourself I won't make snide remarks about your grasp of reality, or sideways comments about growing up, whatever you choose to think. :)
 
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Catherineanne

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God is an evil and wicked parent.

You pass judgement on a God you say does not exist? :confused:

How does that work, exactly? Surely if he does not exist, then he cannot be wicked or evil? Either there is a God, and you consider some of his ways to be evil, or else there is not, and you have nothing whatever to say about him. You can't have it both ways.

'I don't believe in elves. They are wicked creatures who set out to steal babies from their cribs and leave changelings in their place.'

It really doesn't work, does it?

^_^
 
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sk8Joyful

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God gave life, does He not have a right to take it away?
skeptonaut: No, he does not.


God, having 1stly created Everything, also made the Rules...
to go along with His creations, of which you do not understand one whit.

Lacking requisite :thumbsup: understanding, how
could anyone possibly say: 'God has no rights, & God is a mean parent.'

This thread sounds like made by 2 (or more) rebellious ^_^ teenagers.
 
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daniel82

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How do you know you can take the scriptures at their word? You do realise that scriptures and passages have been taken out of the Bible, some where never in it. Why is this? There are literally thousands and thousands of documents from that era.
One theory is that, due to the numerous documents and passages, there was of course going to be a way to link a few together. Doing this they created the Bible as we know it.

Really, my question is: How do you know you can trust the Bible as things have been removed and the fact that there was so much documentation to choose from they simply found a few that linked together and put them in a book? (and of course adapted them to link further)

Hi Jordan, I read a couple of your post before i answered this one but anyway. I have seen alot of documentries on the bible and really thought the people who were giving the information would put down the bible but they didn't. the reason alot of so called book were left out is because they wern't authentic they were written either thousands of years after the bible or in the wrong language at the time. i was watching the Smithsonian Channel and the books called APOCRYPHA. the smithsonian got all into detail as of why they were not put in the bible and why the others were. some book were written hundreds of years after the authors died. Some were written in a language the the author didn't even speak. you should really check it out maybe you can pull them up on you tube. but there are a lot of fake books out there that they tried to put in the bible. its a shame people have taken it as far as to lie and say that they belong in the bible or that they were taken out . they also show what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorah.
But as the reason for which i Believe in God is because i needed Him Dearly. you see i was brought up in the Church also but that wasn't enough for me its not enough for anyone really. This has to be a Choice you make for yourself. but i have done everything wrong in a sense. because i tested God i needed proof myself he knew i had love for him but i needed to know he was there can't fit my story in this box but maybe you should ask him the same question. but seek and ye shall find. Remember this he is full of meekness and loving kindness, he's humble just as we should be. I had to learn the hard way but after he has not ceased to bless me everyday of my life Finding out the God is real i truely have no serious worries. because everything im going through Gods taking me through it no crisis no disaster no situation last forever. there is always that light at the end of darkness
 
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Spiritlight

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Jordan, looking for evidence in spiritual matters is a bit like chasing your tail in circles. You can do it until you are exhausted, and then you will give up and believe in something anyway.

In a way what you are asking us for is evidence like that the love exists for my wife. Spiritual things are
inside us. The exception is with the holy spirit miracles happen at times The holy spirit is like something around us in another plane of existence that we can tap into.


The God you seek is not about repetitive rules and regulations and ceremonies. Though there is a couple worthwhile that honor God.

In the same way I can tel you I have love for my wife because I feel it I also feel a spiritual presence of God.

God is presence all around us looking for an open heart to enter. once you really meet with God you will know. When the spirit of god flows through your body the world will look different.

a few times in my life God has come upon me and it was like being filled with happiness and joy until you could take no more inside you. for a couple of these I had no choice about it, I could not stop it happening to me. something non physical entered me.

The closest thing to evidence I can give you is my word That God is there, and if you open your mind and heart you can enjoy the connection with God I have known for years. God is there waiting for you. You must work out how
 
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FaithPrevails

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