I am a Christian!

[drstevej]

Strange stuff here.

 

[calgal]

Strange stuff here.

Indeed there is! Hi Dr Steve!

 

[CrownCaster]

The harlot of the earth is the church of the devil, the church that proclaims false doctrines. And, yes my testimony could possibly be "wrong", but as the Holy Ghost is the one that testifies of its truthfullness to me, I know that it isn't.

A church can have part of the truth, but not all of it. The True Church has all the Truth as revealed at that time. All others have only part of it, making them true churches in part.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

So if I only tell half truths, I am not a liar? Also, which truth are you talking about? Your church has had so many changes in what truth is that I doubt anyone could pin it down. Truth does not change. Mormonism changes with the seasons.

 

[Svt4Him]

I don't know
Is this some of their teachings or a question you are asking?

Considering I have now looked through this thread to see if this has been brought up, "harlot of the earth" and I do not see it anywhere I certainly hope that it has something to do with there teachings that has not already been discussed in this thread. And I most certainly hope it has no relationship to the "harlot of babylon/earth" that is often equated to the Church...

So I am asking for some clarification please....

The harlot of the earth is all chuches other than the one started by J. Smith.

(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, "History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6.)

​

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 270.)

​

(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)

​

Brigham Young said. . .

"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." (Brigham Young, "Journal of Discourses," Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)

​

John Taylor said . . .

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense....Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 167 - 1858)

​

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (J.D.", Vol. 10, page 127. - 1863)

​

James Talmage said . . .

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". ("The Articles of Faith," Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah. P. 182.)

​

Bruce McConkie said . . .

"With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages." ("Mormon Doctrine," Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, page. 44.)

​

Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .

"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." ("Doctrines of Salvation," page 266.)

​

The Book of Mormon says. . .

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).

​

"And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . ." (1 Nephi. 14:17).

​

The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face" (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).


http://www.carm.org/lds/attack.htm (sorry, should have cited it)
​

 

[Swart]

Brigham was a true prophet???

if that fool had not said half the garbage that he did, your church would look a hundred times better. That man was nothing but a racist pedophile with a power complex.

Please provide some evidence that:

a) BY was racist according to the standards of the day.
b) BY was a paedophile according to the standards of the day.

 

[calgal]

Please provide some evidence that:

a) BY was racist according to the standards of the day.
b) BY was a paedophile according to the standards of the day.

a. The racist mindset of the time did not extend to blood atonement for white women seen with a black man (B Young counseled that).

b.60 year old men having sex with 14 year olds even in that time was abnormal. That deviant behavior can only be justified in the sick mind of one such as Emmanuel David. He would be a man after the manner of Bring'em Young.

 

[Swart]

a. The racist mindset of the time did not extend to blood atonement for white women seen with a black man (B Young counseled that).

b.60 year old men having sex with 14 year olds even in that time was abnormal. That deviant behavior can only be justified in the sick mind of one such as Emmanuel David. He would be a man after the manner of Bring'em Young.

Is that original from you? If so, well done!

Seriously. Please provide a reference for a).

Also, how old was the youngest wife that BY took? Did she have any children and if so, at what age? (I am not a BY expert, so I really don't know the answer to this)

The trend in the 18th and 19th Century was for men to marry older (typically sometime between the ages of 25 & 30, with 21 considered to be young). And for women to marry younger, typically between the ages of 15 & 18, with 14 considered to be on the "young" side. Marriages between men in their 20's and girls aged 12 & 13 did occur and less uncommonly than we would like to admit. No matter how abhorrent we consider it today, it was considered acceptable practice at the time.

My GGF started courting his wife when she was 8 (he was 16). He spent the next 7 years building an identical house to the one she lived in so we wouldn't feel uncomfortable in the new house when they married. They never kissed until they were married and he continued to court her after they were married and he only moved into the house sometime after they were married when she felt comfortable having him in the house with her. Her mother stayed in the house until then.

Different times. Different standards. Different attitudes. I'm sure our ancestors would abhor our present day morality and what we consider acceptable, as will our descendents.

Coversely, my GM married at age 25 and was considered an "old maid".

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Is that original from you? If so, well done!

Seriously. Please provide a reference for a).

Also, how old was the youngest wife that BY took? Did she have any children and if so, at what age? (I am not a BY expert, so I really don't know the answer to this)

The trend in the 18th and 19th Century was for men to marry older (typically sometime between the ages of 25 & 30, with 21 considered to be young). And for women to marry younger, typically between the ages of 15 & 18, with 14 considered to be on the "young" side. Marriages between men in their 20's and girls aged 12 & 13 did occur and less uncommonly than we would like to admit. No matter how abhorrent we consider it today, it was considered acceptable practice at the time.

My GGF started courting his wife when she was 8 (he was 16). He spent the next 7 years building an identical house to the one she lived in so we wouldn't feel uncomfortable in the new house when they married. They never kissed until they were married and he continued to court her after they were married and he only moved into the house sometime after they were married when she felt comfortable having him in the house with her. Her mother stayed in the house until then.

Different times. Different standards. Different attitudes. I'm sure our ancestors would abhor our present day morality and what we consider acceptable, as will our descendents.

Coversely, my GM married at age 25 and was considered an "old maid".

Swart, from what I have read in the past, the normal (or rather common) age for a woman to marry in the 1800's was 17-21. Can you post some references that say that it was common and acceptable in those days for a woman to marry at the age of 15 or 16 and also if you could post some references that 12-14 year old married quite often, or even more than we "would like to admit" i would really appreciate it.

My own grandmother married when she was 13 but that was because she lived with her grandmother and her grandmother couldnt' afford to take care of her so my great great grandmother basically sold my grandma to an older man. She was 13 and even according to her women did not marry that young in those days, which was about 80 or so years ago. We have a couple of women in our family line who were married off at 15 but that was into polygamy marriages, other than that, the youngest even over 100 years ago, was 17.

 

[1 and only]

You are truly unbelievable. I've been a Mormon all my life and here you are telling me what I believe! It's too bad you can't produce one shred of evidence to substantiate these lies (three gods and a muteeternally -- whatever that may be -- pregnant goddess), but I'll tell you one thing: Your posts speak far worse of you than they do of us. If you honestly think your Lord and Savior is pleased by these ("the end justifies the means") tactics, you don't know Him as well as you'd like to think. I feel very, very sorry for you.

Then let me ask - Do you believe:....

That you, as a woman, cannot go to heaven by your own means? You must be sealed to a husband who will call you from the grave by your secret name?

The Mormon statement of faith "As man is, God once was and as God is, man can become"?

That your "Heavenly Father" came to Earth, and had a physical relationship with Mary, the result of which was the conception of Jesus?

That, following his ressurection, Jesus ascended into heaven? Or that he married several wives, sailed to America, and continued his teaching?

That Jesus is god in human form and part of the Trinity (one God in three persons), or that he was a man who earned his way to godhood, a seperate entity than Heavenly Father?

That Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from gold plates written in an ancient, secret language, and (as instructed) he never showed them (uncovered) to another person?

That Joseph Smith was martyred, rather than dying in a prison break, with a gun in his hand?

 

[Apex]

That, following his ressurection, Jesus ascended into heaven? Or that he married several wives, sailed to America, and continued his teaching?

I have heard the other claims before but this is a new one. Where did this come from? And by the way, Katzpur left.

 

[1 and only]

That is where the Book of Mormon was written, in America.

 

[Blackmarch]

Yes it was, but Jesus visited there when he descended from the sky (after his resurrection), according to the BoM.
However it lacks details on his sailing there, or him having wives...

 

[1 and only]

It all depends on which version of the BOM you read.There have been so many revisions even Mormons don't know for certain what they believe.

 

[Blackmarch]

So which version had Jesus sailing to the americas and him having many wives?

 

[1 and only]

This from the Institute for Religious research

If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.

I will need to do some looking to find the answer to your question. I will be back.

 

[Apex]

It all depends on which version of the BOM you read.There have been so many revisions even Mormons don't know for certain what they believe.

And what versions would this be in? Actually what different versions are there?

 

[Blackmarch]

This from the Institute for Religious research

If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.

This one is very well aware of these accusations, but how does this further our discussion?
And you can find answers to this question on quite a few different threads, as this has been made more than once.
Also would you mind providing a link to their site?

I will need to do some looking to find the answer to your question. I will be back.

No prob.
probably would have been easier to make just that statement.

 

[Debi1967]

The harlot of the earth is all chuches other than the one started by J. Smith.

(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, "History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6.)

​

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 270.)

​

(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)

​

Brigham Young said. . .

"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." (Brigham Young, "Journal of Discourses," Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)

​

John Taylor said . . .

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense....Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 167 - 1858)

​

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (J.D.", Vol. 10, page 127. - 1863)

​

James Talmage said . . .

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". ("The Articles of Faith," Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah. P. 182.)

​

Bruce McConkie said . . .

"With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages." ("Mormon Doctrine," Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, page. 44.)

​

Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .

"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." ("Doctrines of Salvation," page 266.)

​

The Book of Mormon says. . .

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).

​

"And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . ." (1 Nephi. 14:17).

​

The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face" (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).

Well it might further the discussion becuase it might show that no matter what we provide as proof you will deem it as pagan influenced anyway contrary to the outward sayings that you have contended that not all of Orthodox Christianity is completely without error....


Pax Christi
Debi
​

 

[Blackmarch]

And this furthers the discussion, how?

 

[1 and only]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father."​

He is even the brother of Lucifer, the devil according to Mormon beliefs (see Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 282 & Milton R. Hunter. The Gospel Through the Ages. p. 15 ). Twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball wrote:

"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).​

These spirit offspring (that's us!) lived on a planet near the star Kolob (Book of Abraham). One day the council of gods came together to discuss putting the Earth together, and decide how they could make their spirit children earn their salvation. Because this life is somewhat of a trial where we must overcome sin (and participate in many clandestine Mormon ceremonies) in order to become gods. Therefore we needed Jesus, our big brother to be an example. Second LDS President Brigham Young made this clear when he said:

"Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through" (Journal of Discourses 14:71-72).​

Lucifer and Jehovah (Mormon Jesus) both came forward with their plans to Elohim. Lucifer's plan was rejected and Jehovah's (Jesus') accepted. Milton R. Hunter of the First Council of the Seventy wrote about this:

"The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (Gospel Through The Ages, p. 15).​

The Incarnation

So the Mormon Jesus was born through God having sex with Mary, and He grew up as all children do to become a fine adult. He worked out his salvation as good Mormons do the usual way. One of the laws governing salvation in Mormonism is the necessity of marriage. So he had a nice polygamous wedding at Cana (what you didn't know he was married and believed the Bible where he is said to be also an invited guest{John 2:2?!}). Mormon Apostle Orson Hyde said:

"It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.259).​

• (Q) Why was Jesus married three times?
• (A) LDS Prophet Joseph F Smith taught that polygamy was essential to exaltation {Mormon god hood} (Journal of Discourses, 20:28 also see Doctrine & Covenants 132:7, 13, 15-16, 19-22)

Brigham Young taught:

"No man can be perfect without the woman, so no woman can be perfect without a man to lead her. I tell you the truth as it is in the bosom of eternity. If he wishes to be saved, he cannot be saved without a woman by his side" (as quoted by Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 215). {See also Improvement Era, Vol. 2 1, Dec. 1917, pp. 105-106, as well as Joseph F. Smith. Gospel Doctrine, p. 272.}​

He also taught that Jesus had children:

"This same truth is borne out by the Savior. Said he, when talking to his disciples:`He that hath seen me hath seen the Father;' and, `I and my Father are one.' The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with His train; I do not know who they were, unless His wives and children" (Journal of Discourses Vol.13 P.309)​

and so did Jedediah M. Grant, October 6, 1854

"Gentlemen, that is as plain as the translators, or different councils over this Scripture, are allow it to go to the world, but the thing is there; it is told; Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified." (Journal of Discourses 2:82)​