hypothetically: If you do not age

[timewerx]

By 25 I was losing my math skills. I was over the hill!

I did not get good at math until my early thirties so there is still hope!

 

[keith99]

I did not get good at math until my early thirties so there is still hope!

Hope? My very rusty math skills still blow away most people.

 

[Cimorene]

Hope? My very rusty math skills still blow away most people.

Does your work require a lot of math? I think that "use it or lose it" saying is probably true for a lot of what we learn.

 

[keith99]

Does your work require a lot of math? I think that "use it or lose it" saying is probably true for a lot of what we learn.

Yes and no. A lot of stuff related to Boolean algebra but not too much else in what I'd call higher math.

 

[timewerx]

Yes and no. A lot of stuff related to Boolean algebra but not too much else in what I'd call higher math.

That is just about the same math I do as a clerk. To help expedite my work, I make macro scripts in spreadsheets, lots of boolean logic involved and algebra mostly in the sheets. In my free time, I'm self studying other programming languages, again lots of boolean logic and a few algebra involved.

I wasn't this "bright" when I was younger. My cognitive skills wasn't anything to write home about. Only when I reached my thirties when I could make a quick grasp of learning math and logic and I could even quickly learn programming languages. Something I couldn't do in my early twenties.

So maybe, it isn't a universal fact of slow mental decline past early adulthood. It couldn't be true for everyone.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Ok, while this is true, it's not as if the brain has that much maturing left to do at the age of 22. Just the finishing touches as the process rapidly slows. You don't go from being a dunderhead to being the cream of humanity's crop in 3 years. Let's not overstate it.

In my experience, it is exactly the decision taking ability that develops last and significantly improves around the age of 25. Prior to that time, the evidence suggests that, in general, decisions that are taken tend to be, as you put it, dunderheaded and based upon whim, emotion, biological imperatives and peer pressure.

 

[Cearbhall]

In my experience, it is exactly the decision taking ability that develops last and significantly improves around the age of 25.

You're welcome to speak for yourself.

Prior to that time, the evidence suggests that, in general, decisions that are taken tend to be, as you put it, dunderheaded and based upon whim, emotion, biological imperatives and peer pressure.

And your source is...? A 22-year-old's brain is hardly different than a 25-year-old's. The whole process is slowing to a stop. Most growth happens before the age of 3. Any sharp contrast in behavior is just the individual making excuses and shirking responsibility.

 

[timewerx]

In my experience, it is exactly the decision taking ability that develops last and significantly improves around the age of 25. Prior to that time, the evidence suggests that, in general, decisions that are taken tend to be, as you put it, dunderheaded and based upon whim, emotion, biological imperatives and peer pressure.

I think mine would be around 30s... no kidding!

I think the brain is separated from the effects of ageing of the rest of the body. Unless it was sick, it remained alert and strong and capable. The rest of the body would inevitably succumb to the withering of the muscles, bones, etc, whether it is sick or not.

 

[grasping the after wind]

You're welcome to speak for yourself.

And your source is...? A 22-year-old's brain is hardly different than a 25-year-old's. The whole process is slowing to a stop. Most growth happens before the age of 3. Any sharp contrast in behavior is just the individual making excuses and shirking responsibility.

I have several sources. Here are a few. It is easy enough to find more and looking up the actual studies and scientific literature is fairly simple if you are more interested in getting the full story and not just these snippets.
Is 25 the new cut-off point for adulthood? - BBC News
Young Adult Development Project
News in Health, September 2005 - (NIH)
Brain changes significantly after age 18, says Dartmouth research

 

[Cearbhall]

I have several sources. Here are a few. It is easy enough to find more and looking up the actual studies and scientific literature is fairly simple if you are more interested in getting the full story and not just these snippets.
Is 25 the new cut-off point for adulthood? - BBC News
Young Adult Development Project
News in Health, September 2005 - (NIH)
Brain changes significantly after age 18, says Dartmouth research

I'm not denying that the brain of a 22-year-old is less developed than that of a 25-year-old. I already acknowledged that fact. Of course it's going to keep developing until it reaches its peak.

I'm rejecting your assertion that the difference is as big as you say it is, or that it has such a huge effect on behavior. I realize that this is subjective, but I would say that the objective difference in the size and amount of gray matter in the brain over these 3 years is so small that it isn't even worth mentioning. Perhaps for people who weren't raised well or didn't meet development and academic checkpoints throughout childhood, but I imagine they're still much the same at the age of 25...

If the difference were as important as you claim it is, then middle-aged individuals would be just as irresponsible and incapable of acting appropriately.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I'm not denying that the brain of a 22-year-old is less developed than that of a 25-year-old. I already acknowledged that fact.

I'm rejecting your assertion that the difference is as big as you say it is, or that it has such a huge effect on behavior. I realize that this is subjective, but I would say that the objective difference in the size and amount of gray matter in the brain over these 3 years is so small that it isn't even worth mentioning. Perhaps for people who weren't raised well or didn't meet development and academic checkpoints throughout childhood, but I imagine they're still much the same at the age of 25...

I agree the difference in size is not worth mentioning it is the difference in functionality not size that is significant.

 

[Cearbhall]

I agree the difference in size is not worth mentioning it is the difference in functionality not size that is significant.

Amount of gray matter + size --> functionality

That's a simplified way of putting it, to be sure, but my point stands.

Edit: I just found a paper that found a statistically significant positive correlation between the amount of gray matter in the brains of 8th graders and their socioeconomic background, so I guess that explains our disagreement. If their circumstances change for the better when they become adults and are able to earn money for themselves, then I imagine that their brains would catch up somewhat and experience a greater net gain in functionality than the privileged young people whom I'm surrounded by.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/04/20/0956797615572233.abstract

 

[keith99]

I agree the difference in size is not worth mentioning it is the difference in functionality not size that is significant.

But is the difference because of simple age or is it because of training put in? It might be interesting to study young adults who have had rigorous educations and see their development relative to age.

Note I said training, I picked that because it is a term used for athletic development and in that context it is accepted that general training provides some development, but specific training provides much more for a specific activity. Might it be that the brain fully develops in the areas related to responsibility only when the person in question gets real world training by being held responsible for their actions?

 

[grasping the after wind]

But is the difference because of simple age or is it because of training put in? It might be interesting to study young adults who have had rigorous educations and see their development relative to age.

Note I said training, I picked that because it is a term used for athletic development and in that context it is accepted that general training provides some development, but specific training provides much more for a specific activity. Might it be that the brain fully develops in the areas related to responsibility only when the person in question gets real world training by being held responsible for their actions?

I could not tell you whether training would develop the skill of better decision taking in those under 25. How would such training be carried out and who would supervise the training? I think that it might work but I cannot say for sure as I have no details.

 

[keith99]

I could not tell you whether training would develop the skill of better decision taking in those under 25. How would such training be carried out and who would supervise the training? I think that it might work but I cannot say for sure as I have no details.

On a general training level simply rigorous education, the kind of stuff that gets complaints that 'it makes my head hurt'. For responsibility being allowed and then required to make decisions and live with the consequences. That later needs to be phased. Just as one does not start training the body by doing 200 Lb bench presses one would not start decision making training with things that could result in death or being crippled. The problem is that it is clear the brain and body do develop and too much too soon can go very very bad. I'd suggest for either body or brain the normal rules should NOT be that things are OK based on age, rather that the next step is in order when the previous one is mastered.

A personal example. Generally people do not get certified for SCUBA before 18. I was certified by 16 and little brother followed in my wake at 15. The think is we both had the building blocks. we were responsible, we were both competitive swimmers, as in water was home, little brother could do the repetitive dive calculations as well any of the adults getting certified, I am the math geek, I could do them better.

 

[Cearbhall]

On a general training level simply rigorous education, the kind of stuff that gets complaints that 'it makes my head hurt'. For responsibility being allowed and then required to make decisions and live with the consequences.

I agree. I think it has to do with the quantity of opportunities and responsibility that people were given while growing up. For example, it always shocks me when I hear cases of tweens and teens abusing or neglecting children, or even their peers. I was signed up for the Red Cross babysitters' course after my 11th birthday, and from that point on I was expected to be able to care for a child for a few hours. It would have been unthinkable to disappoint my parents and community in that regard. A human life was at stake! That's why I'm wondering how people who are twice that age could be expected to be little more than animals in their decision-making process. If a person is that far behind at 22, someone failed him or her hardcore.

People tend to rise to the expectations that are set to them, but they're less likely to exceed expectations.

 

[grasping the after wind]

On a general training level simply rigorous education, the kind of stuff that gets complaints that 'it makes my head hurt'. For responsibility being allowed and then required to make decisions and live with the consequences. That later needs to be phased. Just as one does not start training the body by doing 200 Lb bench presses one would not start decision making training with things that could result in death or being crippled. The problem is that it is clear the brain and body do develop and too much too soon can go very very bad. I'd suggest for either body or brain the normal rules should NOT be that things are OK based on age, rather that the next step is in order when the previous one is mastered.

A personal example. Generally people do not get certified for SCUBA before 18. I was certified by 16 and little brother followed in my wake at 15. The think is we both had the building blocks. we were responsible, we were both competitive swimmers, as in water was home, little brother could do the repetitive dive calculations as well any of the adults getting certified, I am the math geek, I could do them better.

I agree. I think it has to do with the quantity of opportunities and responsibility that people were given while growing up. For example, it always shocks me when I hear cases of tweens and teens abusing or neglecting children, or even their peers. I was signed up for the Red Cross babysitters' course after my 11th birthday, and from that point on I was expected to be able to care for a child for a few hours. It would have been unthinkable to disappoint my parents and community in that regard. A human life was at stake! That's why I'm wondering how people who are twice that age could be expected to be little more than animals in their decision-making process. If a person is that far behind at 22, someone failed him or her hardcore.

People tend to rise to the expectations that are set to them, but they're less likely to exceed expectations.

Both thoughtful comments. Neither however, address one part of my question adequately. Who is to supervise this training? I will add who decides if the supervisor is doing an adequate job? Further questions , does our society discourage this type of training? Is the "everyone deserves a medal for participation" attitude contradictory to proper training in responsible decision taking ? Have we been remiss in being overprotective to our youth which has caused their brain to develop more slowly than it otherwise would? Is none of this a factor at all and brain development just a matter of timing and nothing more?

 

[Cearbhall]

Both thoughtful comments. Neither however, address one part of my question adequately. Who is to supervise this training?

I'm not sure what you mean. The training is life. I didn't take his comment to mean that any additional programming should be added to the standard U.S. upbringing. The people who are responsible for children are the ones who are supposed to train them. Primary socialization happens in the home and is the most crucial factor in a person's early development. Then comes school and peer influences.

 

[SkyWriting]

Let us say by some miracle, God stopped the ticking clock of your body for undetermined purpose and you stopped ageing at 22 years of age.

Lets just say 2 years of age.
Or 122 years of age.

 

[timewerx]

Lets just say 2 years of age.
Or 122 years of age.

Actually, someone did at 2 years old, more or less. Did not grow an inch since and her brain is likewise in a similar state. She is around 30 now and experts have been studying her in relation to ageing, non-invasively, I hope. I forgot her name.