Hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

A point of clarity has been added on post #16.

Forgive me...

 

[KWCrazy]

Baptism does not remove sin, giving your life to Christ does. Until you do that, you aren't worthy of baptism. Baptism is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is a public statement of faith. It comes after you are saved, not before. As for the boy's salvation, only God knows the age of accountability in each of us. Until that time he is innocent because he didn't have the presence of mind to choose.

 

[Ken Rank]

Well, to continue our conversation...

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant, having been raised by parents who think that everything ought to be "his choice" when he is older.

Forgive me...

There are two factors with this. The first is in the form of a question.... does that child truly not only understand the difference between right and wrong but ALSO the eternal penalty for being wrong? If not, he has not reached a point of accountability. The second factor here is that salvation doesn't come through a checklist. By that I mean that while God has commanded us to do certain things as we progress in this new walk with Him... it all begins when the heart turns to Him. And seeing He is not an angry ogre looking to punish everyone He can but instead is merciful reach a hand out to the worst sinners and giving them a chance... then if a person turns their heart to God and dies before they can enter the water... do we really think God would reject them when He got their heart?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Baptism does not remove sin...

Many verses say that it does and every Apostolic Church has always stated as such.

For instance:
ACTS 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

With so much evidence. It's really not debatable.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There are two factors with this. The first is in the form of a question.... does that child truly not only understand the difference between right and wrong but ALSO the eternal penalty for being wrong? If not, he has not reached a point of accountability. The second factor here is that salvation doesn't come through a checklist. By that I mean that while God has commanded us to do certain things as we progress in this new walk with Him... it all begins when the heart turns to Him. And seeing He is not an angry ogre looking to punish everyone He can but instead is merciful reach a hand out to the worst sinners and giving them a chance... then if a person turns their heart to God and dies before they can enter the water... do we really think God would reject them when He got their heart?

I would have to figure that our hypothetical child has no training at all about an eternal penalty.

The rest is agreeable. No checklist... God is for us, not against us.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

What happens to our hypothetical 10 year old who died without being baptized and remained unrepentant,

Your question assumes 2 things that are not givens.

First is that baptism is salvic. Biblically the command to baptize was given to the apostles/evangelists and NOT to the new believers. (Matt 28) If someone is not baptized, would God deny them heaven because someone ELSE did not obey the command?

And second is the unbiblical concept of an "age of accountability."

Unfolding the image of the 2 olive trees in Romans 11 gives us this: there are 2 olive trees; a wild one representing the gentiles and the cultivated one representing Israel - with the "rich root" being the Prophets and Jewish scriptures (OT).

Gentile kids are born on the wild tree and are headed for destruction. Jewish children are born on the cultivated tree, but get broken off at some point for unbelief. Both are in need of being grafted into the cultivated tree. In the gentile's case, they are cut off from their original tree and grafted into the other one.

So the (assumed gentile) 10 year old dies while still attached to the tree of destruction. If he was Jewish, he probably had already exhibited unbelief, breaking him off as well. So it does not look good for him either way.

But beyond all of that, we also know that God is loving and merciful. It is entirely possible that God would save him anyway. We do not and CANNOT know one way or the other. And that is OK.

 

[KWCrazy]

“I believe baptism is important, and I have been baptized. But I think we violate the Scriptures when we make baptism the prime requirement for salvation … Paul’s central theme was Christ and His saving power. Although he spoke of baptism, he said: ‘I thank God that I baptized none of you … lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name’ (1 Corinthians 1:14-15).”

“Baptism is a conclusive act of obedience and witness to the world that we are Christ’s. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In our crusades we don’t baptize because we feel that this should be done by the local pastors—and that if I baptized, some people would say they had been baptized by me, and that would be putting the emphasis on the wrong person. To one who has received Christ, baptism is a necessary and meaningful experience. But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

“You may know that we urge immediate and extensive Bible study for each convert. As the Scripture is reviewed, the place of baptism will surely be discovered. If baptism were a requirement for salvation, we would certainly say that. But you couldn’t support that knowing, for example, that the thief on the cross had no opportunity for baptism or church membership. Yet on his confession, paradise was secured. Jesus said to him, ‘Today shalt thou be with me in paradise’ (Luke 23:43).”

The reverend Billy Graham

Even though numerous Scriptures speak of the importance of water baptism, adding anything to the work of the cross demeans the sacrifice of the Savior. It implies that His finished work wasn't enough. But the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace, and grace alone,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9

Baptism is simply a step of obedience to the Lord following our repentance and confession of sin. Our obedience--water baptism, prayer, good works, fellowship, witnessing, etc.--issues from our faith in Christ. Salvation is not what we do, but Who we have. source

“I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more), is one in direct opposition to my text, well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;’ but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that ‘he that believeth not shall be damned:’ so that baptism does not save the unbeliever, nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly.” Charles Spurgeon

First be saved, then be baptised.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Your question assumes 2 things that are not givens.

First is that baptism is salvic. Biblically the command to baptize was given to the apostles/evangelists and NOT to the new believers. (Matt 28) If someone is not baptized, would God deny them heaven because someone ELSE did not obey the command?

And second is the unbiblical concept of an "age of accountability."

Unfolding the image of the 2 olive trees in Romans 11 gives us this: there are 2 olive trees; a wild one representing the gentiles and the cultivated one representing Israel - with the "rich root" being the Prophets and Jewish scriptures (OT).

Gentile kids are born on the wild tree and are headed for destruction. Jewish children are born on the cultivated tree, but get broken off at some point for unbelief. Both are in need of being grafted into the cultivated tree. In the gentile's case, they are cut off from their original tree and grafted into the other one.

So the (assumed gentile) 10 year old dies while still attached to the tree of destruction. If he was Jewish, he probably had already exhibited unbelief, breaking him off as well. So it does not look good for him either way.

But beyond all of that, we also know that God is loving and merciful. It is entirely possible that God would save him anyway. We do not and CANNOT know one way or the other. And that is OK.

Two things, as you would imagine.

1. Baptism has salvitic properties. So says scripture. So say all Apostolic Churches. So says the liturgy. So says the hymnography, etc. et al.

2. Like you, I do not ascribe an age to accountability.

I do love your ending... God is merciful.

Forgive me...

 

[Daniel9v9]

Baptism does not remove sin, giving your life to Christ does. Until you do that, you aren't worthy of baptism. Baptism is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is a public statement of faith. It comes after you are saved, not before. As for the boy's salvation, only God knows the age of accountability in each of us. Until that time he is innocent because he didn't have the presence of mind to choose.

Well, I would recommend reading everything the Bible has to say about Baptism and being born again. It does not say that it is a mere public declaration of faith - although I can appreciate that this is a popular view, for I myself used to hold to this.

Holy Baptism is not some work we do or a way around Christ, but it's a baptism into Christ by God's grace; in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As Ephesians 4:5 puts it: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". And Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

“I believe baptism is important, and I have been baptized. But I think we violate the Scriptures when we make baptism the prime requirement for salvation … Paul’s central theme was Christ and His saving power. Although he spoke of baptism, he said: ‘I thank God that I baptized none of you … lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name’ (1 Corinthians 1:14-15).”

“Baptism is a conclusive act of obedience and witness to the world that we are Christ’s. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In our crusades we don’t baptize because we feel that this should be done by the local pastors—and that if I baptized, some people would say they had been baptized by me, and that would be putting the emphasis on the wrong person. To one who has received Christ, baptism is a necessary and meaningful experience. But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

“You may know that we urge immediate and extensive Bible study for each convert. As the Scripture is reviewed, the place of baptism will surely be discovered. If baptism were a requirement for salvation, we would certainly say that. But you couldn’t support that knowing, for example, that the thief on the cross had no opportunity for baptism or church membership. Yet on his confession, paradise was secured. Jesus said to him, ‘Today shalt thou be with me in paradise’ (Luke 23:43).”

The reverend Billy Graham

Even though numerous Scriptures speak of the importance of water baptism, adding anything to the work of the cross demeans the sacrifice of the Savior. It implies that His finished work wasn't enough. But the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace, and grace alone,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9

Baptism is simply a step of obedience to the Lord following our repentance and confession of sin. Our obedience--water baptism, prayer, good works, fellowship, witnessing, etc.--issues from our faith in Christ. Salvation is not what we do, but Who we have. source

“I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more), is one in direct opposition to my text, well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;’ but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that ‘he that believeth not shall be damned:’ so that baptism does not save the unbeliever, nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly.” Charles Spurgeon

First be saved, then be baptised.

It is true that only believers (adults) are baptized.

The Church has always baptized infants. The reason is that they will be raised inside the community of believers. It is an entrance point, washing away inherited sin.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

1. Baptism has salvitic properties. So says scripture. So say all Apostolic Churches. So says the liturgy. So says the hymnography, etc. et al.

Having "salvic properties" and actually being salvic are 2 different things.

It cannot be outright salvic if the command was NOT GIVEN to new believers.

But that is probably best covered in a different thread.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Having "salvic properties" and actually being salvic are 2 different things.

It cannot be outright salvic if the command was NOT GIVEN to new believers.

But that is probably best covered in a different thread.

You don't think there would ever be a circumstance where all this person needed was to be baptized.
I might agree with that... a blameless person who had no baptism, indeed is not Christian, still goes to heaven according to Eastern Orthodox Theology.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

You don't think there would ever be a circumstance where all this person needed was to be baptized.

I am not sure I would put "all" in there.

a blameless person who had no baptism, indeed is not Christian,

That is quite a theoretic situation. Impossible in the real world.

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

[Hank77]

It is true that only believers (adults) are baptized.

The Church has always baptized infants. The reason is that they will be raised inside the community of believers. It is an entrance point, washing away inherited sin.

Forgive me...

I thought the EO did not believe that anyone is personally guilty of 'original sin' but that each person is only guilty of their own sin?

 

[Grandpa2390]

Many verses say that it does and every Apostolic Church has always stated as such.

For instance:
ACTS 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

With so much evidence. It's really not debatable.

Forgive me...

You see it is not water baptism that forgives your sinse. It is repentance.

1 Peter 3:21

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

That's answer of a good conscience toward God... that's repentance.
Every verse in the bible that refers to baptism forgiving sin is referring to that baptism of the heart through repentance.

Acts 2:38 seems to stand alone as a contradiction. except that if you read into the original language, there a couple possible interpretation that allow it to make sense. such as:

the phrase "for the remission of sins" is supposed to be "because of the remission of sins" so repent. and then be baptized because of the remission of your sins.

or

the "and be baptized in the the name of Jesus Christ," is parenthetical and the remission of sins being linked to repentance.

whichever interpretation is correct, we are not saved by works. a water baptism that saves us is a complete contradiction to the doctrine of grace and the scriptures that tell us that it isn't water baptism that saves us. It isn't circumcision of the flesh that saves us. it is baptism/circumcision of the heart.
Baptism is something we do out of obedience after we are saved.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Let me add this for clarity. All that we see below happens on the same day.

The "liturgical process" of baptism consists of a few steps all done in linear fashion. Some parts are done by the Godparents when the child young. Because the godparent speaks on behalf of the child, sponsors his entrance into the Church and “receives” the child out of the baptismal waters into the Church and cares for his spiritual life, the godparent himself must be a member of the Church.

1. Confession of Faith in Christ and rejection of Satan (At this point the Bishop would begin referring to the person as Christian.)

2. Confession of personal sins. (The Priest is only a witness to the congregation that one has confessed.)

3. Blessed with sanctified oil.

4. Immersed three times in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the “garments of salvation” symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the “new humanity” of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: “For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia” (Gal 3.27).

5. Chrismation, seal of The Holy Spirit (confirmation)

6. In ancient times a procession was made from the baptistery to the church where the newly-baptized received Holy Communion at the celebration of the "Divine Liturgy" (worship services). In modern times there is no external baptistery and baptism is performed just before Liturgy. The new received partake of communion first.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I thought the EO did not believe that anyone is personally guilty of 'original sin' but that each person is only guilty of their own sin?

We are not guilty, but we suffer from it none the less.

Forgive me...

 

[Grandpa2390]

Let me add this for clarity. All that we see below happens on the same day.

The "liturgical process" of baptism consists of a few steps all done in linear fashion. Some parts are done by the Godparents when the child young. Because the godparent speaks on behalf of the child, sponsors his entrance into the Church and “receives” the child out of the baptismal waters into the Church and cares for his spiritual life, the godparent himself must be a member of the Church.

1. Confession of Faith in Christ and rejection of Satan (At this point the Bishop would begin referring to the person as Christian.)

2. Confession of personal sins. (The Priest is only a witness to the congregation that one has confessed.)

3. Blessed with sanctified oil.

4. Immersed three times in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the “garments of salvation” symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the “new humanity” of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: “For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia” (Gal 3.27).

5. Chrismation (confirmation)

6. In ancient times a procession was made from the baptistery to the church where the newly-baptized received Holy Communion at the celebration of the "Divine Liturgy" (worship services). In modern times there is no external baptistery and baptism is performed just before Liturgy. The new received partake of communion first.

Forgive me...

Well based on my undestanding of what you wrote. It appears that if a person were to die after step 2 and didn't finish the ritual, they would still be saved.

Step 1 and 2 is born again of the water (John)/answer of a good conscience toward God (Peter).
Everything else is just obedience and ritual.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well based on my undestanding of what you wrote. It appears that if a person were to die after step 2 and didn't finish the ritual, they would still be saved.

Step 1 and 2 is born again of the water (John)/answer of a good conscience toward God (Peter).
Everything else is just obedience and ritual.

In other words, the sacraments of The Church are meaningless. I couldn't disagree more.

Forgive me...

 

[Grandpa2390]

In other words, the sacraments of The Church are meaningless. I couldn't disagree more.

Forgive me...

I didn't say meaningless. you said that. makes me wonder why you would say that...

I said everything else was obedience or ritual. You know what else is obedience? Sharing the gospel. Not commiting sin. celebrating communion, etc. But I guess because I say that those things don't save you, you would consider them meaningless.

as for the chanting and rituals and that follow in the other steps. to each their own. they have historical/traditional significance to you. I think I would find them a bit spooky.