Hypocrisy???

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

INRI2 said:
No not the catholic church.... God.

Holy Communion is a sacrament but I do not mean sacrament is a communion or Holy communion in any way makes marriage a sacrament.

A sacrament is a Christian rite that mediates divine gracea holy Mystery. The root meaning of the Latin word sacramentum is "making sacred".

One example of its use was as the term for the oath of dedication taken by Roman soldiers; but the ecclesiastical use of the word is derived from the root meaning of the word and not from that particular example.

Among many Protestants, the word mediates or conveys would mean only that it is a visible symbol or reminder of invisible grace.

The Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Christians, the Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Christians, members of the Anglican, United Methodist, and Old Catholic traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches and Lutherans hold that sacraments are not mere symbols, but rather, "signs or symbols which effect what they signify", that is, the sacraments in and of themselves, rightly administered, are used by God as a means to communicate grace to faithful recipients.

I hate to dissapoint but in most protestant churches their are only 2 sacraments.

1. Baptism
2. Holy communion

3. Reconcilliation (lutherian)

In the RCC, EO ect their are 7.

1. Baptism
2. Reconciliation
3. Holy Communion (eucharist)
4. Confirmation
5. Marriage
6. Holy Orders
7. Annointing of the sick and dying

oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...

Yes, I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people. But that is another discussion. Thanks for the denominations theology lesson..still doesn't make it right. I am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

INRI2 · Nov 2, 2006

oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...

well instead of arguing with me, why not go and see theminister who married you and ask him/her if your marriage is a sacrament!

I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people.

The Catholic church...you mean Christ.

"pick up his cross and follow me"

being a Christian isnt easy!

am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

again i say go and see your pastor...your marriage IS NOT sacramental...if you want it to be I reccomend seeing a priest in an RCC/EO/OO etc church

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

INRI2 said:
well instead of arguing with me, why not go and see theminister who married you and ask him/her if your marriage is a sacrament!

The Catholic church...you mean Christ.

"pick up his cross and follow me"

being a Christian isnt easy!

again i say go and see your pastor...your marriage IS NOT sacramental...if you want it to be I reccomend seeing a priest in an RCC/EO/OO etc church

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL.....ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHWAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
You are kidding right??? NO??? OH, sorry. um...NOT on your life would I walk into THE DENOMINATION! YES, denomination. The catholic denomination IS NOT Christ. It is a denomination. Christ is fine. Trust me, I have a great relationship with Him. YES I believe MY marriage IS sacramental..sorry to burst your little bubble. WHAT would a priest do? Make me annul my marriage?? HA! THAT is laughable....sorry, no can do.

INRI2 · Nov 2, 2006

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL.....ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHWAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
You are kidding right??? NO??? OH, sorry. um...NOT on your life would I walk into THE DENOMINATION! YES, denomination. The catholic denomination IS NOT Christ. It is a denomination. Christ is fine. Trust me, I have a great relationship with Him. YES I believe MY marriage IS sacramental..sorry to burst your little bubble. WHAT would a priest do? Make me annul my marriage?? HA! THAT is laughable....sorry, no can do.

I think saying I can see your slightly bitter would be an under statement, I hope Christ can ease your pain.

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

INRI2 said:
I think saying I can see your slightly bitter would be an under statement, I hope Christ can ease your pain.

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

yes, I am very bitter against this denomination. And folks like yourself aren't helping. BUT that being said, I have been praying that the Lord does help me in my bitterness. I don't follow a 'church'....I follow Jesus. What HE has joined...LET NO man put asunder. HE sees my marriage as sacred....that is all that matters.

INRI2 · Nov 2, 2006

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

INRI2 said:
If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

did you read what I wrote above???? There is NO mystery...know what? why don't we quit before this gets worse. YOU aren't helping you denominations cause any. I DON'T follow anyone/thing...ONLY Jesus.

INRI2 · Nov 2, 2006

did you read what I wrote above???? There is NO mystery...know what? why don't we quit before this gets worse. YOU aren't helping you denominations cause any. I DON'T follow anyone/thing...ONLY Jesus.

Thats ok with me..but can I point out a few things we have established.

1. The Catholic church does not recognise your mothers 3 marriages or your marriage as sacramental

2. Your church does not recognise your marriage as sacramental

3. you believe your marriage is sacramental

You are left only with two options.

1. you can either believe your marriage and your mothers marriage was sacramental and call the catholic church hypocritical for carrying out its annulment

2. You can recognise that your marriage and your mothers marriages were not sacramental and accept that the church was legitimate in its actions to annul your mothers marriage.

picking one of these two options provide you with heart renching realisations.

1. Either the Church is not hypocritical in its annulment
and that your Marriage and your mothers marriages is/were not sacramental

2. Or your Marriage, which you regard as sacramental is not regarded as sacramental by your own church.

Are you sacramentally married or not?

BTW I do believe it is possible for God to make a marriage outside of the Catholic faith a sacrament...but do you believe marriage is a sacrament?

further reading on Sacrament:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

God Bless, seems you have a lot of thinking to do.

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

INRI2 said:
Thats ok with me..but can I point out a few things we have established.

1. The Catholic church does not recognise your mothers 3 marriages or your marriage as sacramental

2. Your church does not recognise your marriage as sacramental

3. you believe your marriage is sacramental

You are left only with two options.

1. you can either believe your marriage and your mothers marriage was sacramental and call the catholic church hypocritical for carrying out its annulment

2. You can recognise that your marriage and your mothers marriages were not sacramental and accept that the church was legitimate in its actions to annul your mothers marriage.

picking one of these two options provide you with heart renching realisations.

1. Either the Church is not hypocritical in its annulment
and that your Marriage and your mothers marriages is/were not sacramental

2. Or your Marriage, which you regard as sacramental is not regarded as sacramental by your own church.

Are you sacramentally married or not?

BTW I do believe it is possible for God to make a marriage outside of the Catholic faith a sacrament...but do you believe marriage is a sacrament?

further reading on Sacrament:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

God Bless, seems you have a lot of thinking to do.

nope no thinking at all about this. Cause I do not recognize the false teaching of the church...sorry...and see ya!!

L3g3nd · Nov 2, 2006

Why did you ask for an explanation in your OP if you were going to simply deny and insult those who are trying to give you answers?

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 2, 2006

um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...

MODS...please close this thread. I have had enough of the nonsense...thanks,

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
This was brought up in another thread, but didn't want to side track that one. SO, going to try and hopefully keep this civil, whilst learning.

My mom turned to the Catholic faith some years ago. 5-6 maybe. Anyway in order to do this, the church 'overlooked' some of the issues that is claims to hold in high standard. For instance...

She was married 3 times, the 4th is when she was Catholic and wanted it in the church. SO, to do this, she had the first 2 annuled at 600$ each..please and thank you to a fast working priest. NOW, the problem I have, and believe is hypocrisy is...NOW that her marriage to my father is annuled...that leave my sister and I as??? what?? The 'church' over looked the fact of kids in a marriage (and kids are supposedly sacred to the church)...to get a convert. PLUS, she had her tubes tied..another 'sin' in the church. :o These things are vry bothersome to me.

JP, your perception of what happened and why is very 'off' . ..it attributes immoral motives to the priest and Church for annuling the previous marraiges . .

I am sorry for the pain this has obviously caused you. . . . but coming at it with this pre-judgement is not the best way to deal with it.

Peace

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...

MODS...please close this thread. I have had enough of the nonsense...thanks,

So you didn't really want to know?

Christian Marriage before God requires that GOD be the one who joined the couple . . not merely man.

Jesus said what GOD has joined together, let no man put assunder ..

He didn't say anything about what MAN may join together . .

There are specific requirements for a marriage to be SACRAMENTAL . . ie joined BY GOD . . . .

There are issues which make a marriage, while still a marriage, NON-sacramental . . ie joined by MAN instead of by God.

Even Paul recognized that previous marriages, before conversion, could be annuled, and the individuals free to marry again . . .

So the Catholic Church is not doing anything other than what was already recognized as valid in the scriptures.

But if GOD joined the two together, then no man can put them assunder, and the Church cannot give an annulment. . .

The Church can only give an annulement if man joined them together.

Do you begrudge your mother the chance to find happiness in a sarcramental marriage?

To get an annulment costs money because it requires research and work, sometimes hundreds of hours . . the Church is willing to do the research and work. But it does cost money to do so . . . .

Peace

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
yes, I am very bitter against this denomination. And folks like yourself aren't helping. BUT that being said, I have been praying that the Lord does help me in my bitterness. I don't follow a 'church'....I follow Jesus. What HE has joined...LET NO man put asunder. HE sees my marriage as sacred....that is all that matters.

I pray that God helps you let go of your bitterness . . . for biterness is nothing more than a tool to be used by the enemy in the life of the believer . . .

Peace

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...

Yes, they can be sacramental outside the Catholic Church . ..

It is a sacrament believers confer on each other . .

Yes, I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people.

I am sorry you see it that way . . you are looking at the stained glass window from the outside in broad daylight . . it looks quite ugly when looked at from that perspective . .

The only way to properly view the stained glass window is to come inside and view it with the sunlight streaming in through it, then the image in the window comes alive with meaning and understanding and beauty. . .

But that is another discussion. Thanks for the denominations theology lesson..still doesn't make it right. I am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

Yes, God does have Christians outside formal communion with the Catholic Church.

That is the teaching of the Catholic Church by the way . . .

Peace

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
that was alot of fluff and nonsense. what makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination??? GIVE me a break. IF by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too. HATE to disappoint you..but MY marriage is very sacramental to me.

A sacrament is a vehicle of God's grace and power in a person's life . .

when we say marriage is sacramental, this means it conveys grace and power of God into the lives of those who participate in it.

A sacrament is participated in by believers .. .

The Sacrament of marriage is particapated in by two believers together . . .

As I said above, they confer this sacrament on each other . . .

But, just because two believers get married, that does not automatically mean it is sacramental . . .

for instance, if a young girl gets married, not fully undertanding what she is doing, or is coerced into doing so because she is pregnant, then there is doubt as to its sacramental nature . . for she is not entering into the marriage with full understanding or of her own free will . . .

If two believers get married, but one intends to only stick it out as long as it works out . . then that is not a sacramental marriage, for, to be sacramental, one has to intend for the marriage to be what God intends . . unto death do you part . . .

Knowledge, understanding, freedom of will and intent are all issues that come into play when determining if a marriage is truly a sacramental one or not . . .

Surely you don't think that if a mentally handicapped girl is forced into marriage, even if both she and her new husband are believers, that this would be a union joined by God?

Peace

thereselittleflower · Nov 3, 2006

Judahspraise said:
my point is, it is hypocritical. JUST to get members into the denomination? *sigh....whatever.

This may be what you believe happened . . . but I have seen no proof that this was indeed what happened . . .

Peace

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 3, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
So you didn't really want to know?

Christian Marriage before God requires that GOD be the one who joined the couple . . not merely man.

Jesus said what GOD has joined together, let no man put assunder ..

He didn't say anything about what MAN may join together . .

There are specific requirements for a marriage to be SACRAMENTAL . . ie joined BY GOD . . . .

There are issues which make a marriage, while still a marriage, NON-sacramental . . ie joined by MAN instead of by God.

Even Paul recognized that previous marriages, before conversion, could be annuled, and the individuals free to marry again . . .

So the Catholic Church is not doing anything other than what was already recognized as valid in the scriptures.

But if GOD joined the two together, then no man can put them assunder, and the Church cannot give an annulment. . .

The Church can only give an annulement if man joined them together.

Do you begrudge your mother the chance to find happiness in a sarcramental marriage?

To get an annulment costs money because it requires research and work, sometimes hundreds of hours . . the Church is willing to do the research and work. But it does cost money to do so . . . .

Peace

WHERE do you get the idea GOD Didn't join us! That is a huge MISCONCEPTION on your part. YOUR denomination is NOT the only 'right' one out there. GOD is everywhere! NOT just in your denomination...that is SO PRIDEFUL!

INRI2 · Nov 3, 2006

um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...

Well the protestant faith does not recognise the sacramentality of marriage, Your belief that Marriage is sacramental is a fully Catholic beleif.

If a sacrament is a ritual that brings about and manifests God's Grace through his ministers both protestand and Catholic in things like Holy communion and Baptism, then If the protestant minister himself does not recognise the manifestation of Gods Grace in marriage can it be sacramental.

If God uses ministers and the church to distribute his sacraments and the ministers and the Church refuse to administer a sacramental marriage..can your marriage be sacramental?

If you believe christian marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that teaches otherwise?

If you agree with your faith that marriage is not a sacrament, how can you condemn the Chruch for annuling a marriage that is not sacramental?

HisBelovedMelody · Nov 3, 2006

and thereselittleflower, YOUR denomination is so full of pride and arrogance to say that only your way is the 'right' way?? NO. Don't think so. All I have seen from ANY catholic on this forum do is dance around and say..well...the church says..I DON"T care what some pope said or anything else. I have raised, as have many others many issues...and ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL you can do is quote 'tradition' and such. THAT is a cop out. YOU (meaning catholics) have been challanged to look outside the box...adn NO..you can't! FINE! but don't expect people to just lay down and accept that YOUR denomination is right. IT ISN'T! NO denomination is.

Hypocrisy???

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