Hypnosis?

[AMM]

Without sharing too much, I'll just say I've had some bad parts in my history (haven't we all?) and my mind is polluted with harmful images. These come up somewhat regularly and cause me to fall in to sin. My priest yesterday suggested that I try hypnosis to remove the harmful images.

This seems off to me for a couple reasons.

1. I've always believed hypnosis was just a playful joking thing, not anything that people really used. It's just a bit wonky
2. Isn't this what Elder Ephraim of Arizona and St Joseph the Hesychast advise against? Don't pray for the passions to be removed, but rather pray that we be given the strength to fight sin and rely on Christ, being sanctified by his name? https://www.orthodoxroad.com/confronting-temptations/
3. I feel like hypnosis is related to new age mysticism, buddhism, etc. And being hypnotized doesn't seem to align with St Peter's instruction to "be alert and sober minded" or St Paul's to "be on your guard" or Christ's to "stay awake" or even the prayers of the church to "beware therefore, O my soul, and be not overcome by sleep, lest thou be given over unto death"
4. this Monachos thread about the topic: Orthodoxy and hypnosis - The Christian's relationship to the world

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't wanna override your priest, but I do gotta say hypnosis doesn't sound right to me.

 

[archer75]

I would suggest that you find out more about what he has in mind, rather than deciding on the basis of a monachos thread + the grossly inaccurate pictures of hypnosis that we all carry around.

To my knowledge there's zero relationship between hypnosis and Buddhism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is an Orthodox priest? If I were a layperson getting such advice, I'd be really surprised too. And hope that I was misunderstanding him somehow.

It might be worth looking into what kinds of tools the Church does offer for dealing with such things.

 

[Deborah D]

Without sharing too much, I'll just say I've had some bad parts in my history (haven't we all?) and my mind is polluted with harmful images. These come up somewhat regularly and cause me to fall in to sin. My priest yesterday suggested that I try hypnosis to remove the harmful images.

This seems off to me for a couple reasons.

1. I've always believed hypnosis was just a playful joking thing, not anything that people really used. It's just a bit wonky
2. Isn't this what Elder Ephraim of Arizona and St Joseph the Hesychast advise against? Don't pray for the passions to be removed, but rather pray that we be given the strength to fight sin and rely on Christ, being sanctified by his name? Confronting Temptations
3. I feel like hypnosis is related to new age mysticism, buddhism, etc. And being hypnotized doesn't seem to align with St Peter's instruction to "be alert and sober minded" or St Paul's to "be on your guard" or Christ's to "stay awake" or even the prayers of the church to "beware therefore, O my soul, and be not overcome by sleep, lest thou be given over unto death"
4. this Monachos thread about the topic: Orthodoxy and hypnosis - The Christian's relationship to the world

I have a background in psychology and experience with hypnosis. I can tell you that this is not the way for a Christian to go. What I found is that hypnosis works much like alcohol and can lower moral inhibitions.

Plus, there's the spiritual element. I believe hypnosis opens a person to demonic influence. The Holy Spirit wants to do His work in your mind and heart. IOW, hypnosis will actually short circuit His work by introducing demonic influence.

Your ideas are on the right track! Hold to what God has shown you in His word!

Blessings!
Deborah

 

[AMM]

I don't wanna override your priest, but I do gotta say hypnosis doesn't sound right to me.

Yeah it seems off. I'm asking the priest who I've been working on with this issue of sin specifically what he knows about it. And I emailed the dean of the region as well to get his advice.

How far does a lay person have to take obedience to a priest/their spiritual father? Would it be sinful for me to switch parishes based on this? As a Lutheran, this would have caused me to switch (if there was another LCMS option available), but I don't know if that's rebellious or prideful of me. If you recall, I've mentioned before some hesitations and various things that have raised flags with my priest before. I don't want to speak badly of him, though, or gossip (although I feel that is what I am doing), since he is a member of the clergy.

I would suggest that you find out more about what he has in mind, rather than deciding on the basis of a monachos thread + the grossly inaccurate pictures of hypnosis that we all carry around.

To my knowledge there's zero relationship between hypnosis and Buddhism.

I asked him what he meant and what he knows but I haven't heard back from him yet. But also, even if there's no connection to buddhism, hypnotism is a state of decreased awareness and lowered inhibitions. Which seems to go against the stuff I mentioned in (4).

This is an Orthodox priest? If I were a layperson getting such advice, I'd be really surprised too. And hope that I was misunderstanding him somehow.

It might be worth looking into what kinds of tools the Church does offer for dealing with such things.

Yeah he's an Antiochian priest...

I am looking in to other things and have been working with my priest and another on this sin. The other priest has been giving me advice like prayer, groups I can go to, practicing the Jesus Prayer, etc. My priest when I initially told him about my addiction to internet pornography (I'll just say it since that's easier that this beating-around-the-bush that I'm doing), simply said that "victory is yours if you want it". As if I haven't wanted victory over this sin for years. I can't just "declare" victory over my sins or "want" to subdue passions and demons.

I have a background in psychology and experience with hypnosis. I can tell you that this is not the way for a Christian to go. What I found is that hypnosis works much like alcohol and can lower moral inhibitions.

Plus, there's the spiritual element. I believe hypnosis opens a person to demonic influence. The Holy Spirit wants to do His work in your mind and heart. IOW, hypnosis will actually short circuit His work by introducing demonic influence.

Your ideas are on the right track! Hold to what God has shown you in His word!

Blessings!
Deborah

Thank you for your support! glad to get a voice from someone with actual experience in this area

 

[ArmyMatt]

as a layman, you have the freedom to go to whatever parish if it really feels weird for you.

but I would suggest keep talking to Father. he might suggest something else if he realizes your discomfort.

 

[archer75]

For the record, actual hypnotherapy is not like the silly stage hypnosis where people appear to have "lowered inhibitions" and bark like dogs.

I'm not saying it's going to help you, but since we are always saying on here "ask your priest!" - it does seem odd to jump ship on the basis of a suggestion.

 

[AMM]

He explained his position by saying this:

"The idea is to "delete" those mental images which might precipitate sensual desire. The psychologist or psychiatrist who employs hypnotism must be trustworthy, and, ideally, a Christian. Hypnotism is not an Orthodox practice any more than S.A. [Sexaholics Anonymous] However, these are methods or tools that may help you. Also, don't obsess over this issue lest the devil uses it to cause you to despair."

But I've read lots of things that say SA is very Orthodox (and it was developed by Christians) and mirrors the Church's instructions for repentance, confession, ascetism, etc. And I've not read anything Orthodox that supports hypnotism. So I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

Also, what does it mean to "not obsess over this issue"? Shouldn't I focus on this since it's one of my greatest sins, and try to combat it so that the devil doesn't get the upper hand?

as a layman, you have the freedom to go to whatever parish if it really feels weird for you.

but I would suggest keep talking to Father. he might suggest something else if he realizes your discomfort.

Yeah, I don't want to jump ship, I feel like that's irresponsible since the parish is such a small mission parish. That being said, there are other things at play (which I won't go in to, since they're issues that shouldn't be figured out on an internet forum anyway) which were making me think about changing parishes anyway. I'm praying a lot about it and struggling to make the right choice.

I'll keep talking to him about it for now.

I'm very much a neophyte, and have not grown strong roots. I'm always afraid that things like this will show me to be not the good ground that Christ sows on, but the stony ground which grows for but a little while before wilting. God save me from this! Accept my humble worship and prayers as incense before you, and let me not perish, nor let your seed be taken by the evil one, nor let me be choked out by my sinful flesh! Rather, have mercy on me!

For the record, actual hypnotherapy is not like the silly stage hypnosis where people appear to have "lowered inhibitions" and bark like dogs.

I'm not saying it's going to help you, but since we are always saying on here "ask your priest!" - it does seem odd to jump ship on the basis of a suggestion.

Yeah, I know they're different. If anything, I feel like stage hypnosis is less of an issue, because you're not doing anything harmful. It's amusing and entertaining, like watching a movie or practicing stand-up comedy. Maybe not the best use of time, but it just seems a lot different from this.

I haven't made up my mind yet - I don't want to rush or be hasty. But like I said above, this isn't the only thing making me consider a different parish. Just know that I'm praying about this and simply trying to do the right, Orthodox thing that will lead me to Christ.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, as someone who is new, the best thing now is to keep praying and talking to your priest.

 

[archer75]

There's a difference between attending to an issue and obsessing. He's encouraging you not to be obsessed.

Well, I encourage you to tell him about your concerns. It doesn't sound to me like he's insisting that you do something obviously awful, but if you have concerns, bring them up.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This isn't "the answer" ... what I mean is that I'm not putting it forth as such.

But something that might be helpful in thinking?

The Six Stages of Temptation - Acquiring the Mind of the Church | Ancient Faith Ministries

And also maybe

Our Thoughts, Feelings, and Memories - Speaking the Truth in Love | Ancient Faith Ministries

They have been helpful to me.

 

[AMM]

There's a difference between attending to an issue and obsessing. He's encouraging you not to be obsessed.

Well, I encourage you to tell him about your concerns. It doesn't sound to me like he's insisting that you do something obviously awful, but if you have concerns, bring them up.

Hm, okay. I'm not sure I really understand, but I asked him what he meant so maybe he can help me with that more specifically (no offense to you, it's just that he knows me). I don't think I have been obsessing - the issue has been particularly relevant the past couple days as I've been really struggling, so I've talked to him about it a lot, but it's not as though that's the only thing I do. I'll see what he says

This isn't "the answer" ... what I mean is that I'm not putting it forth as such.

But something that might be helpful in thinking?

The Six Stages of Temptation - Acquiring the Mind of the Church | Ancient Faith Ministries

And also maybe

Our Thoughts, Feelings, and Memories - Speaking the Truth in Love | Ancient Faith Ministries

They have been helpful to me.

Thanks for sharing, I'll listen to these later!

 

[John Bowen]

Without sharing too much, I'll just say I've had some bad parts in my history (haven't we all?) and my mind is polluted with harmful images. These come up somewhat regularly and cause me to fall in to sin. My priest yesterday suggested that I try hypnosis to remove the harmful images.

This seems off to me for a couple reasons.

1. I've always believed hypnosis was just a playful joking thing, not anything that people really used. It's just a bit wonky
2. Isn't this what Elder Ephraim of Arizona and St Joseph the Hesychast advise against? Don't pray for the passions to be removed, but rather pray that we be given the strength to fight sin and rely on Christ, being sanctified by his name? Confronting Temptations
3. I feel like hypnosis is related to new age mysticism, buddhism, etc. And being hypnotized doesn't seem to align with St Peter's instruction to "be alert and sober minded" or St Paul's to "be on your guard" or Christ's to "stay awake" or even the prayers of the church to "beware therefore, O my soul, and be not overcome by sleep, lest thou be given over unto death"
4. this Monachos thread about the topic: Orthodoxy and hypnosis - The Christian's relationship to the world

I experience hypnosis all the time if I try and lay down taking a nap where you in a semi conscious state . What I have found is my ego can quickly come in and insert thoughts I avoid when I am fully conscious not a positive thing .I want to be master of my mind as God created us to be as it states in the book of Genesis :" To take dominion " What I do to rid myself of images from my past is to close my eyes see the images see they are no longer me .That time has erased them they are only kept alive in my mind . I close my eyes see them imagine they are being compressed like a paper into a ball and then I throw it at Jesus flaming heart that can dissolve anything that is not of God.

 

[whereloveandmercymeet]

I know 3 Christians who’ve successfully used hypnosis as part of dealing with a problem (2 to quit smoking and 1 for compulsive eating). They all say good things about it and it hasn’t appeared to me, or to them they say that they have had any ill affect, like opened to more sin or anything. Obviously that’s just anecdotal.

Whether its got the potential for issues I don’t know, but if your priest is suggesting and knows it’s been a long standing issue and you’ve been trying hard in various ways to overcome, he may have heard of similar stories and that’s why he suggested it.

I think it’s important to find out his take on it and why he suggested it because he may be working on poor information, but he also may know more about it than you’re aware of or being referring to something very specific that could make his reason for suggesting make sense even if it still seems a bit off to you.

Aside, I’ll pray for you

 

[AMM]

I experience hypnosis all the time if I try and lay down taking a nap where you in a semi conscious state . What I have found is my ego can quickly come in and insert thoughts I avoid when I am fully conscious not a positive thing .I want to be master of my mind as God created us to be as it states in the book of Genesis :" To take dominion " What I do to rid myself of images from my past is to close my eyes see the images see they are no longer me .That time has erased them they are only kept alive in my mind . I close my eyes see them imagine they are being compressed like a paper into a ball and then I throw it at Jesus flaming heart that can dissolve anything that is not of God.

Yeah. I know hypnotism is technically something we all experience pretty regularly, like when we're going to sleep or enthralled in a book. Orthodoxy tends to discourage mental imagery though, but if that works for you to get rid of sinful thoughts, then praise God!

I know 3 Christians who’ve successfully used hypnosis as part of dealing with a problem (2 to quit smoking and 1 for compulsive eating). They all say good things about it and it hasn’t appeared to me, or to them they say that they have had any ill affect, like opened to more sin or anything. Obviously that’s just anecdotal.

Whether its got the potential for issues I don’t know, but if your priest is suggesting and knows it’s been a long standing issue and you’ve been trying hard in various ways to overcome, he may have heard of similar stories and that’s why he suggested it.

I think it’s important to find out his take on it and why he suggested it because he may be working on poor information, but he also may know more about it than you’re aware of or being referring to something very specific that could make his reason for suggesting make sense even if it still seems a bit off to you.

Aside, I’ll pray for you

Interesting. Maybe it's not as bad as I'm thinking it is. I'll look in to it more, and I'm going to keep talking to him about it and praying.

 

[archer75]

Yeah. I know hypnotism is technically something we all experience pretty regularly, like when we're going to sleep or enthralled in a book. Orthodoxy tends to discourage mental imagery though, but if that works for you to get rid of sinful thoughts, then praise God!

Orthodox practice discourages concentrating on images during prayer, but does not discourage using one's capacity to imagine images at all. Orthodox Christians are not forbidden to do lighting design or give directions in terms of landmarks, etc.

I say this only because I have seen this "we don't imagine during prayer" overapplied on the Ortho-internet and it makes me nervous to think we give the impression that we forbid people to have an internal visual map of their town or bedroom, etc.

 

[AMM]

Orthodox practice discourages concentrating on images during prayer, but does not discourage using one's capacity to imagine images at all. Orthodox Christians are not forbidden to do lighting design or give directions in terms of landmarks, etc.

I say this only because I have seen this "we don't imagine during prayer" overapplied on the Ortho-internet and it makes me nervous to think we give the impression that we forbid people to have an internal visual map of their town or bedroom, etc.

Thanks for that clarification! I didn't really know

 

[Dogheaded]

Without sharing too much, I'll just say I've had some bad parts in my history (haven't we all?) and my mind is polluted with harmful images. These come up somewhat regularly and cause me to fall in to sin. My priest yesterday suggested that I try hypnosis to remove the harmful images.

This seems off to me for a couple reasons.

1. I've always believed hypnosis was just a playful joking thing, not anything that people really used. It's just a bit wonky
2. Isn't this what Elder Ephraim of Arizona and St Joseph the Hesychast advise against? Don't pray for the passions to be removed, but rather pray that we be given the strength to fight sin and rely on Christ, being sanctified by his name? Confronting Temptations - Orthodox Road
3. I feel like hypnosis is related to new age mysticism, buddhism, etc. And being hypnotized doesn't seem to align with St Peter's instruction to "be alert and sober minded" or St Paul's to "be on your guard" or Christ's to "stay awake" or even the prayers of the church to "beware therefore, O my soul, and be not overcome by sleep, lest thou be given over unto death"
4. this Monachos thread about the topic: Orthodoxy and hypnosis - The Christian's relationship to the world

Hypnosis relies on real psychological principles, exploiting certain weaknesses that some people have, to exert influence over them. It doesn't work on everyone, but it does work. It is also, because of the influence, something where'd you need to trust the hypnotist to an absurd level. The power differential is an ethical concern. It takes the body's natural means of processing trauma and uses it to put a specific instruction in.

EMDR operates using many of the same principles, such as the eye movement needed to process information. EMDR is designed to remove the power away from the practitioner and to the patient. And instead of applying power through influence, it is aimed only at using the body's natural process to help the brain and the psyche go through processing what is already clogging the system. EMDR being patient lead helps the person deal with their issues. It is very intense though, because it brings things up that aren't processing because of being traumatizing - hence why you have a guide and so much effort is spent learning how to feel safe and grounded.

If you are sexually traumatized, EMDR could help you deal with something which may be provoking you to sin. That seems legitimate. On the other hand, it's not going to work great if you keep traumatizing yourself with new images - because it does force things up into memory which might not be helpful at all.

Definitely something between you and spiritual father to discuss.

 

[prodromos]

This thread was 4 years old and the OP's last activity on the forum was over 2 years ago.

This is also in the Eastern Orthodox subforum where non-Orthodox may only post in fellowship or ask questions. The same rules apply in the other Christian Community sub forums.