Gxg (G²);66264434 said:
No one said I was the same individual as the author of the OP. What was noted directly was that what I had said on the matter was exactly what he (as well as others) already said to you earlier - that you have little basis reading into a hymn without dealing with how the language was understood in that era....or placing your own definitions into it and accusing others of worshiping Mary.
And as it is, your question of "Do you believe in Mary for salvation" was a silly one to begin with since it shows where you don't read what others already said. When others already stated they trusted in Christ for salvation, it is redundant to ask "Do you trust in Mary for Salvation?" - just as it's silly for one to ask "Do you trust in your church members for salvation?" when asking them for prayer. Your question was already answered in S in other places - noted in
#193 - and if you keep asking the question of others, it's dangerous ground since it's against the rules to question the salvation of others who trust in Christ.
The Church noting where Mary has been in an intercessory role in the Heavens (as the other saints) is not the same as saying she gives eternal salvation to mankind - and thus, deciding that the Church advocated that and then resisting it would be a false argument. or it'd be an action done in avoiding what the Church said on the matter. St. John of Damascus was one of the great church fathers and there are already 3 sermons of his on the Dormition of the Theotokos are on record:
One does not speak on what the Church is wrong on when they are already unaware of what the Church was about - or not able to show where their OWN stance is solely how Christ/the Church saw things. And I've yet to see where either you or others ever had a dominant view in the Church - it is essentially one individual claiming everyone else (but him and those agreeing) is right on God's Word after thousands of years....and that's how cults get started.
Attributing aspects to Mary that are supernatural is not the same as saying she has the same place as God.
Saints teleported (even though Christ was the FIRST to do so in being able to transcend physical boundaries) - Saints traveled in time....saints did many other things besides that which others felt were God's alone - but they only did so because of being connected into God. It's the same with Mary.
And if you really were consistent in protest, I ask again - how is it that you avoid where the Apostles were in the place of God for being given power to forgive sins by Christ when Jesus said (
John 20:21-22) even though it was said of Jesus "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (
Mark 2:7 and
Luke 5:21)? More was shared on that elsewhere in the thread entitled
What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?
Nonetheles
s, your Church's doctrines do not matter when trying to use scriptures that were never developed IN your church - they were developed in the Church you disagree with, with them being seen within the context of the Church you do not adhere to.
And thus, you are trying to use scriptures that never came from you and yet trying to tell others whom the scriptures came from on how to see it - thus making your doctrines on the same level as what many have done in the cults.
Various church men with differing opinions on certain issues was never the same as it concerns where there was both DOGMA and CONSENSUS with regards to Church Practices. This is where the Church Councils come in and the consistent practices of the Early Church - and from Athanasisus to Origen, Tertullian and multiple others, they ALL had no issue (Bishops included) with having hymns dedicated to celebrating Mary/asking her for prayer - just as they all ha
d no issue with the concepts of Real Presence when it came to the Eucharist. which
was celebrated
Anyone picking and choosing doesn't understand the concept of the Church Councils or Church practice - and that's a basic when it comes to understanding the reality of tradition. But as it is, whether it be with Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East or Catholic, across differing traditions to the early church there has been consistent consensus when it comes to the celebration of Mary - and the approval of hymns such as what the OP talked on.
Early venerations to Mary can
be seen on the catacombs of the early Christian martyrs as early as the 1st century - with there being depictions of Mary with the Divien Son of Christ.
St. Irenaeus of Lyon who was a great defender of Christian orthodoxy established Mary as the New Eve who participates with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation, becoming through her obedience the "cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race"..and he also noted that she was an "Advocate," or interceding helper, for Eve and for her salvation. In addition to that, Gregory Thaumaturgis depicted Mary interceding for those on earth from her position in Heaven. St. Ephraem directly addressed the Blessed Virgin in several Marian sermons - with it also being the case that direct prayer to Mary is also found in a sermon of St. Gregory Nazianzen (330-389). We can also see that by the last part of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, we have numerous explicit examples of direct prayer to the Mother of God, for example in the writings of St. Ambrose, as well as by St. Epiphanius. There are many more besides
that when it comes to seeing and dealing with the actual practices of the Early Church..
As said before,
According to St. Irenaeus, the Blessed Virgin helped in the process of our salvation:
For that, she will always be honored - but that has little to do with assuming she's on the same level as Christ.
As other Orthodox have noted:
Orthodox believe that the Virgin Mary needed to be redeemed from sin with the rest of mankind and that Redemption comes solely through the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross, that is through God. The work of Redemption cannot in any way be that of a creature but solely comes from the Creator.
....I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mary would appreciate her being elevated to the same or close to the level of her Son. I'm sure she is more humble than that even in heaven. She plays a pivotal role in asking our Lord to bestow graces but bestowing graces of her own accord - I don't think so. I do think she can influence her Son though (witnessed the changing of water to wine at Canaan.) Can she dispense grace? Not without the Son. Does she dispense grace. I'm sure that with the Son she may have.
Ad-hominem (specifically, argument via emotion) does little to actually address the Word of God for what it says. No one said they were concerned with what does or doesn't pass muster with you - seeing that the Word of God was not ever in focus to begin with when you did You've already done the same thing Mormons do when claiming anything historically verified that counters them is not dealing with scripture - and then making arguments claiming they will not be swayed.
Truth is Truth - facts are facts - and those concerned on the matter will address them. Those who don't will not - and then tend to find any type of argument they can throw against it, like assuming that pointing out the historical background of a text is the same as just throwing out "scholarship" (red-herring). By your logic, you already sought to do the same technique you tried to inconsistently argue against the moment you spoke on "The Word of God" - trying to accuse others on what it says and trying to reference. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....
But regardless, no one cares whether or not you feel swayed since you already avoided the sway of scripture in favor of rhetoric claiming to love God's Word. Anything that has been written is done solely for lurkers/others wishing to deal with the facts and not just opinions - and claiming "Well, I believe scripture doesn't support that!!!" or trying a high-card move of claiming anyone disagreeing with you as disagreeing with Scripture is not the same as dealing with SCRIPTURE - period. Others, from TAW to GT to the Apostolic Section and elsewhere, have noted the same things being pointed out here - and thus, the arguments you offer won't go anywhere just as it is with arguing against what God's Word has always said.[/quote]
Wow! All this in order to evade a direct question. Now that we know you are not George or his sock puppet, the question remains - Are you trusting Mary to save you?
I know what others have said on the topic, but I want to know your personal answer.